Eternal Security

[TibiasDad]

Respectfully disagree, because there is also fellowship...

Precious friends, I believe "God Establishes A Great And Eternal [ Salvation ] 'Relationship' With us...:

God's 'Operation' on all new-born babes In Christ!​

+

God's ETERNAL Life Insurance​

...and This Can Never 'be broken'. However, 'our fellowship [ for rewards ] with Him' can be broken, eh?:

"God Is Faithful, by Whom ye were called unto the fellowship of His Son Jesus Christ our Lord.​

Now I beseech you, brethren, by The Name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same​

thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in​

the same mind and in the same judgment." (1 Corinthians 1:9-10 AV)​

"Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own​

reward according to his own labour. For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's​

husbandry, ye are God's building. According to the Grace of God which is given unto me,​

as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid The Foundation, and another buildeth thereon.​

​

But let every man take heed how he buildeth Thereupon. For other foundation can no man​

lay than That is laid, Which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold,​

silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for The​

Day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work​

of what sort it is.​

​

If any man's work abide which he hath built Thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's​

work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. "​

(1 Corinthians 3:8-15 AV)​

Thus God's Established 'Relationship' is Eternal, but our fellowship depends on our commitment
to how we "heed to building On The Firm Foundation Of The Lord Jesus Christ," Correct?

Big Difference between the two, eh?

Amen.

Well we will have to agree to disagree agreeably. Fellowship is the byproduct of relationship. Relationship is based solely upon belief. Belief is a variable commodity. Belief is a choice that can fluctuate. Belief is totally in the power of the believer. It is their point of action in the relationship.

Doug

 

[Believe]

Yes, I’ve heard this argument before, but remember, this is not a physical/ DNA type of relationship, but a spiritual relationship. The dynamic has changed from a legal concept to a Grace concept.

Natural branches were cut off and wild branches were grafted into the tree’s root system. And the sole reason was belief or the lack thereof. The Jews are cut off because of unbelief, and the Gentiles were graciously grafted in because they believed the gospel preached to them.

Paul is not talking about blessings in Romans 11, he is talking about being in or out of Christ as a foundational state.

Relationship is not a legal or biological issue; it is a personal, spiritual, interactive issue.


Doug

While I do agree with you Doug he did create us in his image So that means he gave us the DNA. And on top of that as Christians for being transformed into Christ's image.

You mentioned relationship not being legal. Did you know that we are adopted in to the family of God.

When we receive Christ by faith, we have the privilege of becoming his children. We are adopted into His family. “But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God.” – John 1:12. This refers to the status of all Christians, both men and women.

Here's the interesting part. According to Civil law In the days of Jesus if you adopted someone it was against the law to terminate that adoption.

What is the biblical law of adoption?
God's Covenant Family
Interestingly, according to a Roman-Syrian lawbook, a man might be able to disown his biological son if he had good reason, but he could never disown his adopted son. This is not to say that children adopted into families today have a greater standing than biological children.

 

[TibiasDad]

While I do agree with you Doug he did create us in his image So that means he gave us the DNA. And on top of that as Christians for being transformed into Christ's image.

You mentioned relationship not being legal. Did you know that we are adopted in to the family of God.

When we receive Christ by faith, we have the privilege of becoming his children. We are adopted into His family. “But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God.” – John 1:12. This refers to the status of all Christians, both men and women.

Here's the interesting part. According to Civil law In the days of Jesus if you adopted someone it was against the law to terminate that adoption.

Fair enough, but the father is never under obligation to grant an inheritance just because of legal standing. That inheritance is, at a minimum, eternal life.

The Father puts a contingency on whom he grants eternal life. Whoever is believing receives eternal life.


Doug

 

[Anja]

Fair enough, but the father is never under obligation to grant an inheritance just because of legal standing. That inheritance is, at a minimum, eternal life.

The Father puts a contingency on whom he grants eternal life. Whoever is believing receives eternal life.


Doug

It's interesting that you mentioned Inheritance. That makes me think of the parable of the Prodigal Son. I've seen that one used many times as an example for eternal security.

 

[Believe]

It's interesting that you mentioned Inheritance. That makes me think of the parable of the Prodigal Son. I've seen that one used many times as an example for eternal security.

I've heard The Prodigal used before to show OSAS

 

[Believe]

Here's a real good explanation

Forty Miles of Bad Road “The Prodigal”

After the young man’s money is gone, he barely survives by taking a job feeding pigs. Hungry and penniless, he comes to his senses. He decides to go back to his father and apologize for his foolish…

wordsofjesus68538540.wordpress.com

 

[TibiasDad]

It's interesting that you mentioned Inheritance. That makes me think of the parable of the Prodigal Son. I've seen that one used many times as an example for eternal security.

The prodigal would not have been received back if he didn’t come to his senses and return to the Father’s house. That is his belief system changed and he realized his own sin and unworthiness and returned.

For me, the Prodigal Son is a picture of the fall of man and the mercy that God has for us. It doesn’t really speak to the security of the believer; but that said, a believer is one who is believing, and all those who are believing are secure! The question is whether one who believes can stop believing, and, in my opinion, the parable doesn’t speak to that issue.

Doug

 

[Anja]

The prodigal would not have been received back if he didn’t come to his senses and return to the Father’s house. That is his belief system changed and he realized his own sin and unworthiness and returned.

For me, the Prodigal Son is a picture of the fall of man and the mercy that God has for us. It doesn’t really speak to the security of the believer; but that said, a believer is one who is believing, and all those who are believing are secure! The question is whether one who believes can stop believing, and, in my opinion, the parable doesn’t speak to that issue.

Doug

Exactly you hit the nail on the head when he realized what a mistake he had made and is unworthiness and sin he returned believe me he would be better off being a servant in his father's house.

Your last paragraph you hit the nail on the head also. It may not speak of that issue of stopping believing but when you bring the rest of the scriptures that are used to support once saved always saved you can see the connection.

You know how it is when you're doing apologetics you don't just stand on one scripture, you come at the point you're trying to bring across from all angles. The reason I'm into this Doug is because if there was any possible way you could lose your salvation trust me I would have lost mine. God never let me go and he always had my back.

 

[Grace ambassador]

...a believer is one who is believing, and all those who are believing are secure! The question is whether one who believes can stop believing...

Precious friend, an interesting Scripture in this regard is:

"For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind."​

(2 Timothy 1:7 AV)​

​

Thus, it is difficult to understand how anyone with a "sound mind" [ That God Gave them ],
would ever want to 'stop believing', eh?

Amen.

 

[TibiasDad]

Precious friend, an interesting Scripture in this regard is:

"For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind."​

(2 Timothy 1:7 AV)​

​

Thus, it is difficult to understand how anyone with a "sound mind" [ That God Gave them ],
would ever want to 'stop believing', eh?

Amen.

Adam had a sound mind at one time….if it were impossible, then all the warning passages are meaningless words; why have a warning to avoid falling off the cliff if it can never happen?

I do not espouse an easy to lose argument; but the scriptures are too full of warnings and contingency statements to draw a conclusion that the writers felt falling was absolutely impossible.

Doug

 

[Rockson]

For me, the Prodigal Son is a picture of the fall of man and the mercy that God has for us. It doesn’t really speak to the security of the believer;

I agree

but that said, a believer is one who is believing, and all those who are believing are secure!

I think I might pretty much stand alone here in not believing in OSAS. Maybe not I don't know. I certainly do not believe one sins one time that they're out the door. If they go a long, long time without fellowship week after week turning even into years and having no real vital relationship with God in prayer that they've given up let me just say they might not be in a good place. But let's talk about one who is a believer.....what are the dynamics that make one such.? Is it merely the accepting of doctrines in the mind?

Or is believing really a daily interactive relationship with God meaning believing has with it this daily interaction with God. If one is believing then they're going to be believing they need a prayer fellowship with the Lord. Believing includes the ongoing package of responding to God in such a way that show they are taking him seriously. If they stop doing that are they true believers or rather just mental assenters of doctrine. Big difference between the two I'd say.

 

[TibiasDad]

I agree

I think I might pretty much stand alone here in not believing in OSAS. Maybe not I don't know. I certainly do not believe one sins one time that they're out the door. If they go a long, long time without fellowship week after week turning even into years and having no real vital relationship with God in prayer that they've given up let me just say they might not be in a good place. But let's talk about one who is a believer.....what are the dynamics that make one such.? Is it merely the accepting of doctrines in the mind?

Or is believing really a daily interactive relationship with God meaning believing has with it this daily interaction with God. If one is believing then they're going to be believing they need a prayer fellowship with the Lord. Believing includes the ongoing package of responding to God in such a way that show they are taking him seriously. If they stop doing that are they true believers or rather just mental assenters of doctrine. Big difference between the two I'd say.

Rockson,

I certainly don’t hold to any form of OSAS, so you are not ever alone in this regard. Belief is the mother of obedience, and as she matures, the more obedience is evident.

Belief is also wholistic in nature. The need for it increases as we learn more and more about who Christ is and what God’s purpose for us is revealed to us. Thus, while the new Christian may believe in Christ as savior, faith must also extend to brace Jesus as Lord. Likewise for when we discover that faith is to be as strong in the difficult times as it is in the good times.

Jesus spoke of this in the parable of the sower when the faith in Christ as savior doesn’t expand to embrace belief when persecution comes and they fall away.

Failure to grow and produce fruit is the result of unbelief. It is not in my pay grade to determine when that break is complete, but it is certain that continuing in unbelief will eventually cause an ultimate break in relationship.


Doug

 

[Rockson]

Rockson,

I certainly don’t hold to any form of OSAS, so you are not ever alone in this regard. Belief is the mother of obedience, and as she matures, the more obedience is evident.

Belief is also wholistic in nature. The need for it increases as we learn more and more about who Christ is and what God’s purpose for us is revealed to us. Thus, while the new Christian may believe in Christ as savior, faith must also extend to brace Jesus as Lord. Likewise for when we discover that faith is to be as strong in the difficult times as it is in the good times.

Jesus spoke of this in the parable of the sower when the faith in Christ as savior doesn’t expand to embrace belief when persecution comes and they fall away.

Failure to grow and produce fruit is the result of unbelief. It is not in my pay grade to determine when that break is complete, but it is certain that continuing in unbelief will eventually cause an ultimate break in relationship.


Doug

An excellent way you've shared things there.

 

[Rowan]

You can't lose your salvation. There are a lot of Christians in name only they're sometimes called pew warmers. They're not saved so if they walk away they didn't lose their salvation because they never had it to begin with. If you're truly saved and you have the holy spirit and you're a new creation you're not going to fall away. It's not going to happen. The warnings that are in place in the bible are for people that aren't sold out for Jesus.

I don't know if anybody's posted it yet but I'll go ahead and throw it in here.

The Parable of the Sower was told to the crowd gathered around Jesus. Jesus tells the story of a sower who scattered seeds on four different soil types. The first type of ground was hard, and the seed could not sprout or grow at all and became snatched up instantly. The second type of ground was stony. The seed was able to plant and begin to grow. However, it could not grow deep roots and withered in the sun. The third type of ground was thorny, and although the seed could plant and grow, it could not compete with the number of thorns that overtook it. The fourth ground was good soil that allowed the seed to plant deep, grow strong, and produce fruit.

Jesus spoke the Parable of the Sower to teach how important the state of our heart is to receive the Gospel and how our choices and actions prove our salvation after hearing the Gospel.

If you don't have a changed life and you're not producing fruit you're not saved. The key is to abide in Christ. Think about it for a second could it be possible that what Jesus did on the cross that we accept when we become Christians. Think of everything that that entails. All that we've read and learned about salvation. Do you really think more powerful enough to undo that?

And if you want to look at all the warning passages make sure you look at the passages that show that Jesus doesn't let you go. He leaves the 99 to go get that one lost lamb.

Eternal security is a wonderful thing.

 

[TibiasDad]

Jesus spoke the Parable of the Sower to teach how important the state of our heart is to receive the Gospel and how our choices and actions prove our salvation after hearing the Gospel.

I won’t disagree with you here, I will only add to it that the parable is aimed at the “sower”, the disciples of Christ, to teach them the expectations of preaching the gospel.

It is interesting that only one type of soil was a complete failure, the hard soil! All of the seed that fell on the other soils sprang to life, but only one of these produced fruit.

So 3/4s of the seed “sprang to life”, which I take to mean being born again. But only 1/4 became fruitful, fulfilling the purpose of the seed being sowed.

3/4s of the seed does not do what it is meant to do, and if the parable of the branches is any indication, that which doesn’t produce fruit is “thrown in the fire”. In other words the 2/3rds that sprang to life but didn’t produce fruit had either died or were thrown into the fire. The “life” that occurred by their “receiving [the seed of the gospel] with joy”, ie, genuinely, is lost.

If you don't have a changed life and you're not producing fruit you're not saved.

I would tend to agree, but remember fruit takes time. We don’t produce fruit immediately. This said, there should be a definable change in the person from the start. It is a type of fruit, but not the type that comes from obedience produced belief.

The key is to abide in Christ.

Which begins and continues by believing…

Think about it for a second could it be possible that what Jesus did on the cross that we accept when we become Christians. Think of everything that that entails. All that we've read and learned about salvation. Do you really think more powerful enough to undo that?

I think you need to rewrite this so it makes sense. I’m not sure what I could give as an answer.

And if you want to look at all the warning passages make sure you look at the passages that show that Jesus doesn't let you go. He leaves the 99 to go get that one lost lamb.

Again, the warning passages are meaningless if it is impossible to be lost. Scripture says that he “is able to keep you from falling”, which is not to say that one will necessarily be kept. Our belief is the contingency, not God’s capacity to keep us.

The lost lamb is a parabolic expression of the declaration that “the Son of man came to seek and save that which was lost.” It doesn’t imply anything about perseverance.


Doug

 

[Grace ambassador]

Eternal Security?

Well, precious friends, unless "Rightly Divided" according to 2 Timothy 2:15 AV, the Confusion
will probably continue - Please Be Very Richly Encouraged And Edified:

In God's Context of prophecy / covenants / law for Israel, we see no osas for them, eh? Because of:

1) "show works meet for repentance" (Matthew 3:8), because,
+
2) "to the twelve tribes of Israel," "faith Without works is dead"

(James 1:1, 2:17,26)​

+
3) "keep the commandments" to "enter life" (Matthew 19:17)
+
4) "one thing thou lackest...sell All / take up cross / follow Jesus"

(Mark 10:17-23)​

+
5) "he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved"

(Matthew 24:13; Mark 13:13 AV)​

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15 AV) From “Things That Differ!” (online):

However, under God's Other Context of Mystery / Grace for The Body Of Christ, we do see:

A Multitude of Scriptural Evidence of God's Eternal Life For us:

God's 'Operation' on all new-born babes In Christ!​

+

God's ETERNAL Life Insurance​

Thus, it behooves us to teach new [ and probably Confused ] babes In Christ the above, and:

It is Better to "serve God out of love" [ knowing and Thanking Him we have Eternal Life ]

rather than "serving God out of fear" [ of losing 'temporary' life ], eh?:​

"God hath not Given us the spirit of fear, but of power,​

and of love, and of a sound mind" (2 Timothy 1:7 AV)​

Amen.

 

[Believe]

I won’t disagree with you here, I will only add to it that the parable is aimed at the “sower”, the disciples of Christ, to teach them the expectations of preaching the gospel.

It is interesting that only one type of soil was a complete failure, the hard soil! All of the seed that fell on the other soils sprang to life, but only one of these produced fruit.

So 3/4s of the seed “sprang to life”, which I take to mean being born again. But only 1/4 became fruitful, fulfilling the purpose of the seed being sowed.

3/4s of the seed does not do what it is meant to do, and if the parable of the branches is any indication, that which doesn’t produce fruit is “thrown in the fire”. In other words the 2/3rds that sprang to life but didn’t produce fruit had either died or were thrown into the fire. The “life” that occurred by their “receiving [the seed of the gospel] with joy”, ie, genuinely, is lost.




I would tend to agree, but remember fruit takes time. We don’t produce fruit immediately. This said, there should be a definable change in the person from the start. It is a type of fruit, but not the type that comes from obedience produced belief.



Which begins and continues by believing…


I think you need to rewrite this so it makes sense. I’m not sure what I could give as an answer.




Again, the warning passages are meaningless if it is impossible to be lost. Scripture says that he “is able to keep you from falling”, which is not to say that one will necessarily be kept. Our belief is the contingency, not God’s capacity to keep us.

The lost lamb is a parabolic expression of the declaration that “the Son of man came to seek and save that which was lost.” It doesn’t imply anything about perseverance.


Doug

The parable of the lost sheep (Matthew 18: 10–14)​

Jesus tells the parable of the lost sheep to show that the Kingdom of God is accessible to all, even those who were sinners or strayed from God’s path.
He uses the example of a shepherd (God) who has 100 sheep and one goes missing.
The shepherd leaves the 99 others and searches high and low for the lost sheep.
Jesus stresses that when the shepherd finds the lost sheep he rejoices over it more than the 99 who did not go astray.
This is how God will rejoice when a sinner returns to Him.

The hundred sheep were all saved believers that belong to Jesus and one went astray.

Jesus keeps us from falling. We may wander off but he makes sure we come back. Anyway that's what I believe.

 

[Rowan]

The parable of the lost sheep (Matthew 18: 10–14)​

Jesus tells the parable of the lost sheep to show that the Kingdom of God is accessible to all, even those who were sinners or strayed from God’s path.
He uses the example of a shepherd (God) who has 100 sheep and one goes missing.
The shepherd leaves the 99 others and searches high and low for the lost sheep.
Jesus stresses that when the shepherd finds the lost sheep he rejoices over it more than the 99 who did not go astray.
This is how God will rejoice when a sinner returns to Him.

The hundred sheep were all saved believers that belong to Jesus and one went astray.

Jesus keeps us from falling. We may wander off but he makes sure we come back. Anyway that's what I believe.

That's the way I've always understood the parable.

 

[TibiasDad]

Jesus tells the parable of the lost sheep to show that the Kingdom of God is accessible to all, even those who were sinners or strayed from God’s path.
He uses the example of a shepherd (God) who has 100 sheep and one goes missing.
The shepherd leaves the 99 others and searches high and low for the lost sheep.
Jesus stresses that when the shepherd finds the lost sheep he rejoices over it more than the 99 who did not go astray.
This is how God will rejoice when a sinner returns to Him.

The hundred sheep were all saved believers that belong to Jesus and one went astray.

Jesus keeps us from falling. We may wander off but he makes sure we come back. Anyway that's what I believe.

The only problem I see with this is that if the one who wanders is always brought back , then why don’t all sinners come to Christ, or rather why doesn’t Christ go bring them into the fold.


Doug

 

[brightfame52]

The only problem I see with this is that if the one who wanders is always brought back , then why don’t all sinners come to Christ, or rather why doesn’t Christ go bring them into the fold.


Doug

Because they were not His Sheep.