How are God and Jesus the same, but different?

[Fred]

that is the uinitarians dilemma - between a rock and a hard place. they have no biblical answer only unbiblical opinions.

...and continuous evasions.

They know what they are doing.

They have no excuse.

 

[civic]

And here is one they cannot answer,

The Father has never once said in the N.T. " I Am God"

another stumbling block.

 

[civic]

so much for their strawman Jesus never claimed to be God or said He was God. This works both ways as they cannot have their cake and eat it too. The Father never said I Am God.

Down goes frazier, down goes frazier

hope this helps !!!

 

[praise_yeshua]

They aren’t meaningless. Many people have abandoned trinitarianism because of them.

Correct. They believed man more than God.

Tne average trinitarian doesn’t know, nor does he or she care, about the details of the doctrine of the Trinity. When I’m speaking to such persons I address their ignorance. The response to that varies. Most of them just shrug their shoulders. Some of them accuse me of lying about that orthodoxy teaches - these are the people I’m most likely to succeed with. I direct them to the sources (which they largely ignore) and to their trinitarian clergy. Once they speak with their clergy they discover, from their clergy’s confirmation, that I wasn’t lying to them about what the doctrine teaches. Now they have to make a choice. Most will remain where they are - they rationalize that the details don’t really matter. As long as they believe in a Trinity … everyone is happy.

But then there are the others. Some will not remain where they are - they are disturbed by the fact that what they believe is not what the doctrine teaches - they can’t rationalize that the details don’t really matter. What will they do? Eventually, many of them abandon trinitarianism. I’ve seen them fall into cults, i to Judaism, into Islam, into atheism, etc. Some of them I can reach with the real Messiah.

You appeal to the mistakes of men. Not the Scriptures.

I don’t attack the meaningless. I attack the idolatry.

If you believe Jesus Christ is an idol (which you don't based upon your previous comments), then appeal to the Scriptures.

Those are your words, not mine. I would never say, nor would I admit, that I’m not a principled Jewish monotheist.

Your comments contradict commentary concerning Jewish Monotheism. You know they do. Which shows that you're not being true to your own requirements of Trinitarian commentary.

The one God of the scriptures is immortal. He hasn’t died and he will never die.

Even when we die, we don't cease to exist. Same with the Son. You should consider such things that you've obviously never considered before. Your hatred for Trinitarianism is blinding you.

 

[praise_yeshua]

One of the best weapons that I have at my disposal in dealing with the average trinitarian are the details of the doctrine of the Trinity. Step 1. Teach them the details of the doctrine - using trinitarian sources - which their clergy hasn’t but should have.

Just like you do with Jewish Monotheism.... right? Geesh.....

 

[civic]

Just like you do with Jewish Monotheism.... right? Geesh.....

I didn't know a butter knife was considered a weapon against a machine gun , a losing battle.

 

[Fred]

You appeal to the mistakes of men. Not the Scriptures.

Sadly, that is what he bases his faith on.

 

[civic]

Sadly, that is what he bases his faith on.

bringing the teachings of man to battle against the word of God is always a losing battle. the battle has already been won in, by, through and from Christ. its not hard to see who is and is not trusting in the finished work of Christ for their salvation.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Sadly, that is what he bases his faith on.

And his hatred.

 

[Matthias]

Correct. They believed man more than God.

Orthodoxy comes from man, not from God.

You appeal to the mistakes of men.

I make trinitarians aware of the mistakes of men which, over a lengthy period of time in post-biblical days, produced the doctrine of the Trinity.

Not the Scriptures.

I use the very same scriptures that you do.

If you believe Jesus Christ is an idol (which you don't based upon your previous comments), then appeal to the Scriptures.

I do appeal to the scriptures.

Your comments contradict commentary concerning Jewish Monotheism.

My comments contradict your commentary on Jewish monotheism.

You know they do. Which shows that you're not being true to your own requirements of Trinitarian commentary.

I’m being true to Jewish monotheism and to trinitarian commentary.

Even when we die, we don't cease to exist.

I don’t agree.

Same with the Son.

So it is your testimony that the Son didn’t cease to exist. The whole time he was “dead” he was “alive”.

You should consider such things that you've obviously never considered before.

I‘ve considered such things; possibly to a greater extent than you have. It’s only your mistaken belief about me which says that I haven’t.

Your hatred for Trinitarianism is blinding you.

The love of trinitarianism blinds people to the one God of the scriptures.

 

[Fred]

I use the very same scriptures that you do.

There is a difference between use and abuse.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

This article - posted on biblestudytools.com - contains several statements about the Trinity which I would like to ask trinitarian members of this forum about.

I’ll start with this one. (I’ll ask about others in follow-up posts in this thread.) As a trinitarian, what is your reaction to this:

”… God and Jesus are also separate beings …”

Is Jesus God?

The Bible tells us that Jesus is God. Let's look at some statements Jesus made as well as the differences between God and Jesus.

www.biblestudytools.com

Does this statement about the Trinity raise a red flag, or is it non-problematical?

Since it's all nothing but "Theology', then it doesn't mean SPIT - other than it's fun for folks who know little or nothing about what they'll never know anyway to have theological discussions about.

Since the Bible presents Father God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, and they're all God, that's good enough for me, and y'all can fight the "Doctrine wars" if that's what floats your boat.

 

[civic]

Since it's all nothing but "Theology', then it doesn't mean SPIT - other than it's fun for folks who know little or nothing about what they'll never know anyway to have theological discussions about.

Since the Bible presents Father God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, and they're all God, that's good enough for me, and y'all can fight the "Doctrine wars" if that's what floats your boat.

Amen or whatever floats/ creams your Twinkie is another saying

 

[praise_yeshua]

Orthodoxy comes from man, not from God.

Not true. Even it is, then you're not Orthodox yourself. Not to mention the fact that Orthodoxy largely qualifies as "every man does what is right in his own eyes".

So it is your testimony that the Son didn’t cease to exist. The whole time he was “dead” he was “alive”.

Geesh.... He body was dead. His flesh was dead. Just like you will be one day. You will not cease to exist. You are more than flesh. Which is why I tried to get you to talk about Dichotomy/Trichotomy.

The love of trinitarianism blinds people to the one God of the scriptures..

I don't see any Trinitarian with an idol in doctrine. Where is the idol.

 

[civic]

Not true. Even it is, then you're not Orthodox yourself. Not to mention the fact that Orthodoxy largely qualifies as "every man does what is right in his own eyes".




Geesh.... He body was dead. His flesh was dead. Just like you will be one day. You will not cease to exist. You are more than flesh. Which is why I tried to get you to talk about Dichotomy/Trichotomy.



I don't see any Trinitarian with an idol in doctrine. Where is the idol.

The boogie man

 

[Fred]

The whole time he was “dead” he was “alive”.

https://berean-apologetics.community.forum/threads/why-the-trinity-is-wrong-theology.520/page-2#post-11438

 

[Matthias]

Since it's all nothing but "Theology', then it doesn't mean SPIT - other than it's fun for folks who know little or nothing about what they'll never know anyway to have theological discussions about.

Since the Bible presents Father God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, and they're all God, that's good enough for me, and y'all can fight the "Doctrine wars" if that's what floats your boat.

I haven’t heard anything back yet from the trinitarian ministry that posted it. I’ve written to organizations like theirs before and I’ve always received a written response when I have. This one might prove to be an exception but time will tell the tale.

They might ride with the article - trinitarians, at that level, teaching falsely about the doctrine of the Trinity won’t be able to do that for long if other trinitarian organizations pay any attention to them. They might quietly take down the article and not replace it. They might review it (as I requested when I wrote to them), revise it, and repost it. I’ll watch my email for a response from them and I’ll check in on their website from time to time to see if it’s still up, as is or revised.

What would really be interesting is if they do nothing in response to my email. If that happens then I’ll take it to another trinitarian ministry of that magnitude and see what they do with it.

 

[Fred]

I haven’t heard anything back yet from the trinitarian ministry that posted it. I’ve written to organizations like theirs before and I’ve always received a written response when I have. This one might prove to be an exception but time will tell the tale.

They might ride with the article - trinitarians, at that level, teaching falsely about the doctrine of the Trinity won’t be able to do that for long if other trinitarian organizations pay any attention to them. They might quietly take down the article and not replace it. They might review it (as I requested when I wrote to them), revise it, and repost it. I’ll watch my email for a response from them and I’ll check in on their website from time to time to see if it’s still up, as is or revised.

How odd of you.

What would really be interesting is if they do nothing in response to my email.

Just like you do when confronted with evidence that refutes your false jesus.

If that happens then

Another feather in your heretical cap.

 

[Matthias]

Not true.

If you think it’s true then why aren’t you aligned with the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity?

”Jesus is not a human person” -> the orthodox teaching of the doctrine of the Trinity.

Even it is, then you're not Orthodox yourself.

It is, and you’re right. I’m outside the pale of orthodoxy.

Not to mention the fact that Orthodoxy largely qualifies as "every man does what is right in his own eyes".

I can agree with that but those who hold and defend orthodoxy don’t.

Geesh.... He body was dead. His flesh was dead. Just like you will be one day. You will not cease to exist. You are more than flesh. Which is why I tried to get you to talk about Dichotomy/Trichotomy.

His body was dead -> you

He was dead -> scripture

I don't see any Trinitarian with an idol in doctrine. Where is the idol.

Jewish monotheism -> There is no God besides the God and Father of the Messiah. Everything else is idolatry.

 

[civic]

There is no God besides the Father, Son and Holy Spirit- Everything else is idolatry.

The Apostles all worshiped Christ and called Him their God. The Christian Shema- Monotheism. One God who is Plural. 1 Cor 8:6.

hope this helps !!!