James' Teaching On Justification: Before Men Or Before God?

You cannot use the word you are defining in the definition. Faith exists the moment faith exists? Do you not see the stupidity in what you are saying?
To be more specific, SAVING FAITH exists the moment that we place it in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:5-9)

Nothing stupid about that. It takes more than human wisdom to understand the things of the Spirit of God. It takes spiritual discernment. (1 Corinthians 2:11-14) The Bible is not merely a text book.

Everyone has faith in something, but not everyone has saving faith in Jesus Christ. Many instead have faith in works (at least in part). Roman Catholics, Mormons and Campbellites, just to name a few. 🚩
Scripture says that faith exists the moment it includes action (James 2:20, 22, 24, 26). Eph 2:5-9 does not contradict this fact. Eph 2:5-9 says that faith (living, active faith) is the conduit through which God sends His grace to us. It says NOTHING about that faith being inactive, passive, and mental-only.
You have a problem with CAUSE and EFFECT. Faith in Jesus Christ is the cause and works are the effect. We have access by faith into grace.. (Romans 5:2) Paul says nothing here about faith and actions/works which follow. More cart before the horse nonsense.

Faith demonstrates that it exists the moment we show our faith by our actions/works (James 2:14-18) yet saving faith exists the moment we trust in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) ✝️
No, you have only half the truth.
No, I have the whole truth. (James 2:14-24; Romans 4:2-6) *Perfect Harmony*
Action is not the fruit of faith.
False. A good tree (which represents a believer) bears good fruit (which represents good works) but a bad tree (which represents an unbeleiver and includes make believers) bears bad fruit (which represents bad works) - Matthew 7:17. Your argument is with Jesus and not me.

In Matthew 13:23, we read - But the one sown on the good ground—this is one who hears and understands the word, who does produce fruit and yields: some a hundred, some sixty, some thirty times what was sown. Fruit here represents good works. All genuine believers are fruitful yet not all are equally fruitful.
Action is the soul, the life blood, the heart of faith.
False. That's like saying fruit produced from a tree is the life blood, the heart of the tree. Being made alive together with Christ by grace through faith is the life blood, the heart of faith. Life flows through the root of a tree and produces fruit and not the other way around. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10) You have it backwards. Tail wagging the dog. Cart before the horse.
Yes, there are many "good works" that come from having faith, and these are the works that God created us to be doing. But those come after salvation is received. Salvation REQUIRES a living, active faith for it to be received in the first place.
OXYMORON.
Again, no. I trust in Jesus' Word which says that in order to receive salvation we must repent of our sins (Acts 3:19), confess Jesus as Lord (Rom 10:9-10), and be baptized in water (John 3:5, 1 Pet 3:21, Acts 2:38, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, Eph 5:26-27, Gal 3:6-27, etc.).
No, you trust in your EISEGESIS and your biased church doctrine which culminates in salvation by works/works righteousness.
You think that these passages are either not Scripture, don't mean what they say, or find some other way to explain them away. But I trust 100% in my Lord and savior Jesus Christ who told us exactly how to enter into His Kingdom.
I believe those Scriptures (I just don't believe your EISEGESIS). False religion turns symbols and shadows of salvation into the substance and the source. I trust in my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of my salvation. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4)
Precisely. You do not have faith unless you have action with it. No action = no faith. Action = faith.
We do not demonstrate that we have faith unless we have action which follows. No action to follow demonstrates no faith. Faith = belief, trust, reliance. Action which follow = works.
According to Scripture, how do we "place our faith in Jesus Christ"?
By trusting in Him alone for salvation and not in works. (John 10:9; 14:6; Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)
What does Scripture say is required to place our faith in Him?
Place our faith in Him alone and not place our faith in Him + works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)
No, works are not the fruit of faith. That is not Biblical in the least.
Works are the fruit of faith as I already proved from Scripture. Jesus uses the analogy of trees and fruit in Matthew 7, saying that "every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit". He then goes on to explain that you will recognize people by their fruit/deeds, indicating that actions are a reflection of one's inner state.

Faith is the foundational element, the source from which good works are produced. Good works are the visible manifestation or outward expression, of a person's inner faith. Evidence of true faith. Simple! :)
 
Everyone has faith in something, but not everyone has saving faith in Jesus Christ. Many instead have faith in works (at least in part). Roman Catholics, Mormons and Campbellites, just to name a few
Dan loves to misrepresent others.
I'll use the same dirty tactic Dan uses for example,
Dan believes one must believe and so do the Catholics therefore Dan is very close with the catholic religion.
Totally dishonest.

Dan is using the guilt by association fallacy.
He takes a group that is looked upon as untrustworthy false teachers and then associates his hated enemy with them.
I do mean hate as how else could you possibly love someone when you obsessively abuse them by compulsively lying about them?
If that's not hatred. Then I dont know what is.

Anyway, it's sad and pathetic how low Dan has gone.
I used to have some respect for him.
Not anymore.

btw, Catholics are some of the worst false teachers that claim to be Christian.
To associate that religion with the church I'm a member of is ridiculous.
 
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Dan loves to misrepresent others.
I'll use the same dirty tactic Dan uses for example,
Dan believes one must believe and so do the Catholics therefore Dan is very close with the catholic religion.
Totally dishonest.

Dan is using the guilt by association fallacy.
He takes a group that is looked upon as untrustworthy false teachers and then associates his hated enemy with them.
I do mean hate as how else could you possibly love someone when you obsessively abuse them by compulsively lying about them?
If that's not hatred. Then I dont know what is.

Anyway, it's sad and pathetic how low Dan has gone.
I used to have some respect for him.
Not anymore.

btw, Catholics are some of the worst false teachers that claim to be Christian.
To associate that religion with the church I'm a member of is ridiculous.
I was born and raised in the Roman Catholic church and I have also previously spent some time in the so called church of Christ so I understand first hand how both churches pervert the gospel by teaching salvation by faith AND WORKS in contradiction to Scripture. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)

I don't misrepresent others. I simply expose their true colors and they lash out at me for it because the truth hurts! What Roman Catholics believe culminates in works righteousness which is not what Dan believes so Dan is not close with the Catholic religion. Who is being dishonest?
 
Where is the faith in someone who trusts in their faith alone to save them?
It's not faith in faith, but faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Our faith is only as good as the OBJECT that we place it in. Where's the faith in someone who trusts in works for salvation (faith in self) and not in Jesus Christ alone for salvation?
 
It's not faith in faith, but faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Our faith is only as good as the OBJECT that we place it in. Where's the faith in someone who trusts in works for salvation (faith in self) and not in Jesus Christ alone for salvation?
vising a couple times doesn't make you an expert on someone's religion or their religious beliefs.
You do love to defame others with false accusations and associations.
It's your choice of debating methods.
It only helps me.

Faith in ones faith alone is possible if you do not believe in what Jesus says to do to be saved, Mark 16:15-16.
You admit we do not need to obey Jesus' direct commandments like baptism.
So you are putting your faith in your faith alone to save you not in obeying/doing what God commands you to do, 2 Thessalonians 1:8.
 
vising a couple times doesn't make you an expert on someone's religion or their religious beliefs.
I visited more than a couple of times. Plus I've been debating folks who attend the CoC for around 12 years now on various Christian forum sites so I'm no stranger to the beliefs of your church.
You do love to defame others with false accusations and associations.
You are no stranger to defaming others. You are quite the protectionist.
It's your choice of debating methods.
It only helps me.
You remind me of a cunning lawyer.
Faith in ones faith alone is possible
My faith is in Christ alone.
If you do not believe in what Jesus says to do to be saved, Mark 16:15-16.
You admit we do not need to obey Jesus' direct commandments like baptism.
Jesus never said whoever is not baptized will not be saved. That is your EISEGESIS. I obeyed Jesus command to believe or be condemned (Mark 16:16(b); John 3:18) I obeyed Jesus in baptism after I was saved upon believing in Him.
So you are putting your faith in your faith alone to save you not in obeying/doing what God commands you to do, 2 Thessalonians 1:8.
Faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation saves. Faith in works/self condemns. (Romans 11:6) I have obeyed the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. (Romans 1:16; 10:16) Not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/works which follow. You remain confused.
 
I visited more than a couple of times. Plus I've been debating folks who attend the CoC for around 12 years now on various Christian forum sites so I'm no stranger to the beliefs of your church
12 years and you still don't know what we teach on salvation.
You are no stranger to defaming others. You are quite the protectionist
Easy to make false accusations.
Wheres your evidence?
You remind me of a cunning lawyer
More name calling. This is all you do and its sad.

My faith is in Christ alone
The word alone means everything else is excluded.
Then it cannot be grace alone or faith alone.
You are not making logical sense.

Jesus never said whoever is not baptized will not be saved.
Doesnt need to.
He said whoever believes and is baptized will be saved.
Whoever doesn't believe cannot be saved so baptism of a non-believer is irrelevant.

Faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation saves. Faith in works/self condemns
You dont believe in Christ if you do not believe all of what He teaches, John 5:24.
 
12 years and you still don't know what we teach on salvation.
The CoC typically teaches a 5 step plan of salvation that culminates in salvation by water baptism. 1. Hear 2. Believe 3. Repent 4. Confess 5. Be baptized. Some CoC websites mainly focus on steps 2-5 while others add an additional step of remain faithful. It's obvious what you teach.
Easy to make false accusations.
Wheres your evidence?
Where do I start? You have falsely accused me of teaching a gospel of disobedience just because I don't subscribe to works salvation. Good back through the last 10 pages or so.
More name calling. This is all you do and its sad.
You are the great protectionist. You call people liars a lot and even Doug Brents called you out on it in one of his posts. Does mud slinging ring a bell? Post #509. Doug even attends the CoC. Of course you tried to justify yourself but to no avail.
The word alone means everything else is excluded.
False. The word alone means that the very moment we place our faith in Jesus Christ "alone" for salvation we are saved. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) That does not exclude grace on God's part. It's still by grace through faith that we are saved. That also does not exclude repentance because we must first change our mind before we can place our faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Acts 20:21) Confession is not excluded because the word of faith is in our mouth and heart. (Romans 10:8) Water baptism along with any further good works beyond that are excluded. (Acts 10:43-47; Ephesians 2:10) It's you who does not know what I teach.
Then it cannot be grace alone or faith alone.
You are not making logical sense.
Grace alone in the sense that it's unmerited favor alone and not grace + merited favor that we are saved through faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. It takes more than mere human logic to understand spiritual matters.
Doesnt need to.
He said whoever believes and is baptized will be saved.
Whoever doesn't believe cannot be saved so baptism of a non-believer is irrelevant.
Jesus clarifies the first clause of Mark 16:16 with the second, "but he who does not believe will be condemned" so the first clause describes general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely necessary for salvation.

Now what is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions NINE different times in each of these complete statements?hat *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

There have been numerous people over the years who attend false religions and cults that have been water baptized but do not truly believe in Jesus unto salvation. Such folks may believe "mental assent" in certain things about Christ but they are not trusting in Him alone for salvation.
You dont believe in Christ if you do not believe all of what He teaches, John 5:24.
I believe all of what He teaches. I just don't believe in your false gospel of salvation by faith AND WORKS.
 
So no obedience to be saved. Then no works involved in salvation.
Then, faith which is a work, John 6:28-29 and a direct commandment, 1John 3:23-24 is not required by God to be saved.
You have created a real problem.
You must explain how faith which Cleary is a work is not required to be saved if no works are involved in salvation.
Can you explain yourself?
'For by grace are ye saved through faith;
and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are His workmanship,
created in Christ Jesus unto good works,
which God hath before ordained
that we should walk in them.'

(Eph 2:8-10)

Hello @Titus,

We are God's workmanship. The salvation we receive is by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves it is the gift of God. Which is cause for great rejoicing, and infinite gratitude.
Titus 3:4-5,
- but after the kindness and love of our Savior toward man appeared

Question: When did Gods love for man appear?
1. When we obeyed Him by doing/ working His works?
2. When we had no obedience no works?
God created mankind, as with all creation, for His own pleasure.
'Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power:
for Thou hast created all things,
and for Thy pleasure they are and were created.'

(Rev 4:11)

*He has loved us since before the world began.

Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord,
nor of me His prisoner:
but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel
according to the power of God;
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling,
not according to our works,
but according to His own purpose and grace,
which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
But is now made manifest
by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ,
who hath abolished death,
and hath brought life and immortality to light
through the gospel:'

(2Tim, 1:8-10)
Answer: Jesus' love was demonstrated on the cross when He gave up His very life.
For who?
Answer: I came not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance, Luke 5:32.

So Jesus mercy, love, grace appeared for the wicked, the reprobate not the righteous.
That is who He died for.
We are all sinners.
2Timothy 1:9,
- who hath saved us and called us with an holy calling not according to our works but according to His own purpose and grace,
which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began


Before we ever did any good works Christ chose to save us.
Praise God!
Titus 3:4-5,
- but after that the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared toward man,
- not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to His mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit

Question: Did Gods mercy, grace, love appear toward man because man did works of righteousness?

Answer: No.
That's all Paul is teaching Titus.
He is not teaching Titus no works are in salvation!!!
He is teaching Titus Jesus chose to save the world because we are dead in our sins and need a Savior.
His love was before we ever chose Him.
But do you have to choose Him to be saved? Yes.
If not, will God save the wicked reprobate who will not believe? 1John 3:23-24.
Will God save the ones who will not obey His commandments, Hebrews 5:8-9?

Or is His grace conditional?
God wont save those who don't want to be saved.

Conclusion: God chose to save us all. We are all wicked sinners at one point in our lives.
We did not do works to cause God to choose to save us.
But that does not eliminate our responsibility to believe and obey the gospel, John 3:16 .2 Thessalonians 1:8

It's easy to be deceived when you don't go by the context instead follow a pretext.
'And this is His commandment,
That we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ,
and love one another
, as He gave us commandment.'

(1Jn 3:23)

Praise God!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
'My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue;
but in deed and in truth.
And hereby we know that we are of the truth,
and shall assure our hearts before Him.
For if our heart condemn us,
God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
Beloved, if our heart condemn us not,
then have we confidence toward God.
And whatsoever we ask, we receive of Him,
because we keep His commandments,
and do those things that are pleasing in His sight.
And this is His commandment,
That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ,
and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
And he that keepeth His commandments dwelleth in Him,
and He in him.
And hereby we know that He abideth in us,
by the Spirit which He hath given us.'

(1Jn 3:18-24)

* Praise God! For His mercy and grace.

'If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar:
for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen,
how can he love God whom He hath not seen?
And this commandment have we from Him,
That he who loveth God love his brother also.'

(1Jn 4:20-21)

* Let us love one another, and so glorify God in Christ Jesus our beloved Saviour, Lord and Head.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
'For by grace are ye saved through faith;
and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are His workmanship,
created in Christ Jesus unto good works,
which God hath before ordained
that we should walk in them.'

(Eph 2:8-10)

Hello @Titus,

We are God's workmanship. The salvation we receive is by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves it is the gift of God. Which is cause for great rejoicing, and infinite gratitude.

God created mankind, as with all creation, for His own pleasure.
'Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power:
for Thou hast created all things,
and for Thy pleasure they are and were created.'

(Rev 4:11)

*He has loved us since before the world began.

Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord,
nor of me His prisoner:
but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel
according to the power of God;
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling,
not according to our works,
but according to His own purpose and grace,
which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
But is now made manifest
by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ,
who hath abolished death,
and hath brought life and immortality to light
through the gospel:'

(2Tim, 1:8-10)

Praise God!

'And this is His commandment,
That we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ,
and love one another
, as He gave us commandment.'

(1Jn 3:23)

Praise God!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
You didn't answer my question.
Faith is a work, John 6:28-29 ; 1John 3:23-24.
Quoting Ephesians 2:8-9 does not change this fact.

Do you call all works boastful works in the Bible?
Are the good works from God boastful works?

Jesus said we must work the works of God.
Those works are not boastful works.

You need to learn the difference in the kinds of works.
Works of God are righteous.
When He tells us to do them that is not evil or boastful but good.

Ephesians 2:8-9 is referring to the works of the law of Moses, Romans 4.

Verses out of context is a pretext.
 
Hello Titus,

I prefer to rejoice in the truth than to answer questions.

May God's will be done in each one of us, for His name and glory's sake.

In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
remain faithful.
This again is obedience to God.
Your religion teaches one can leave the faith, die in unfaithfulness and go to heaven.
That is your doctrine. You are being saved in a disobedient condition.
No lies just truth.

Matthew 10:22,
- and you will be hated by all for My names sake
But he who endures to the end will be saved

I'm not lying, misrepresenting or doing anything wrong.

You are mad because I'm teaching what your religion teaches.
You are mad at your religion being exposed for what it teaches.
No one teaches in your religion you must be obedient to the end to be saved.
So your religion is one can be disobedient and be saved.

That's called telling the truth.

What you are doing is called lies.
Teaching I believe you must earn your salvation which I do not teach.
But you keep lying as that's your nature.
 
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