James' Teaching On Justification: Before Men Or Before God?

Faith IS the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. (Hebrews 11:1) Straight from the Bible. You confuse what Biblical faith IS with what Biblical faith results in producing. I'm fine with Jesus' own teaching on faith. I'm just not fine with your eisegesis
You define faith as seperated apart from obedience. That is a new definition of saving faith.

James does not define faith that saves as alone apart from works.
I'm still waiting for a quotation from you on James chapter 2 that says justified by faith alone.
No commentary by you. Just quote James teaching what you teach on faith.

I can quote him with no commentary teaching on faith alone.

James 2:24,
- ye see then how by works a man is justified and not by faith only
 
Noah had already found grace in the eyes of the Lord and was a just man who walked with God (Genesis 6:8-9) and a preacher of righteousness (2 Peter 2:5) before he built the ark
So you are teaching me Noah did not need to obey God and build the ark because he already found grace , Gods favor.
That fits with your salvation through disobedience doctrine.

Except the Bible teaches he must build the ark to continue in Gods grace.
All, the world were destroyed for what reason Dan?
1Peter 3:20,
- which sometime were disobedient when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah while the ark was a preparing, wherein few that is eight souls were saved by water

So you are teaching Noah would have stayed in Gods grace whether he obeyed God or disobeyed God.
If that's the teaching you want to hold to then it helps me prove you teach we are saved through belief alone and no obedience to God.

Noah's obedience was a demonstration of his faith but not the origin of it. Building the ark saved Noah and his family physically from drowning. (Hebrews 11:7)
The Scriptures teach His obedience was his faith in action.
You keep,trying to put faith over here and works of faith over there as if they aren't joined together.

Hebrews literally calls Noah's working on the ark His faith.
You follow a man made theology not the word.
I speak just as the word speaks.
When will you call faith a work as the Bible teaches Dan?
When will you stop perverting faith as defined in the scriptures?
Hebrews 11:7,
- by  faith Noah being warned of God things not yet seen as yet,  moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his household

The scriptures do teach building the ark saved them.
You claim Noah was already saved.
Would he of continued to be saved if he did not have true saving faith by building the ark?
If he disobeyed God would he have not been killed like the rest of the world?
Yes, it was a must. Noah had to work by building the ark to be saved.
Deny this is to deny the scriptures.
 
More evidence Biblical faith that saves always is joined with obedience.
The Bible defines faith as their works.
Read Hebrews 11:30,
- by faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they were compassed about seven days

All that marching around the city of Jericho was what?
Dan's religion strictly only defines this as their good works.
But what does the author of Hebrews define their marching for seven days around Jericho?
Answer: Their faith!!!!

Faith that saves is never defined as being seperate from obedience to Gods commandments.
Dan's definitions of saving faith cannot be found in scripture.
No, faith is not defined "as" good works as you and Roman Catholics teach. In regard to the walls of Jericho in Hebrews 11:30, it was by or "out of" faith that the Isralites marched around Jericho for seven days and the walls came crashing down.

The Israelites were not saved by grace through faith + marching around Jericho for seven days. That is not what happened here so marching around the city for seven days was not the means of their salvation but it did result in the walls to come crashing down.

It's a shame that human pride will not allow you to stop trusting in your works for salvation and instead trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) Your definition of faith "as" works and your religion of works righteousness cannot be found in scripture.
 
No, faith is not defined "as" good works as you and Roman Catholics teach. In regard to the walls of Jericho in Hebrews 11:30, it was by or "out of" faith that the Isralites marched around Jericho for seven days and the walls came crashing down
The Bible teaches their faith was marching around the walls of Jericho.
Trying to seperate their obedience to Gods instruction from their faith is why you cannot be taken seriously.

You are so desperate to separate their obedience from their faith that you end up making an argument that somehow they were saved by just believing but not doing the marching.

Really?
You think if they didn't do the work of faith but just believed alone they would have won?
Dan, your beliefs make you look absurd.
There faith is literally their actions. Its faith in action.
Stop trying to seperate them.
 
The Israelites were not saved by grace through faith + marching around Jericho for seven days. That is not what happened here so marching around the city for seven days was not the means of their salvation but it did result in the walls to come crashing down
Amazing.
So if they did not March around by obeying Gods instruction they could have been saved by their belief alone.
Nowhere does the Bible teach this.
This is man made theology out of the reformation movement.
 
The Israelites were not saved by grace through faith + marching around Jericho for seven days. That is not what happened here so marching around the city for seven days was not the means of their salvation but it did result in the walls to come crashing down
You continue to prove me correct.
You are in a religion that teaches one can recieve Gods grace be saved by not obeying His commandments.
You actually taught Gods people in the old testament could have disobeyed God, not marched around the walls of Jericho and God would still have saved them.
Dan, your doctrine has blinded you so severely that you cannot see how backwards your teaching is.
It is unbiblical error,
Matthew 22:29.
 
No, faith is not defined "as" good works as you and Roman Catholics teach. In regard to the walls of Jericho in Hebrews 11:30, it was by or "out of" faith that the Isralites marched around Jericho for seven days and the walls came crashing down.

The Israelites were not saved by grace through faith + marching around Jericho for seven days. That is not what happened here so marching around the city for seven days was not the means of their salvation but it did result in the walls to come crashing down.

It's a shame that human pride will not allow you to stop trusting in your works for salvation and instead trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) Your definition of faith "as" works and your religion of works righteousness cannot be found in scripture.
Sadly some people just want to boast in self not God
 
@Titus , @mailmandan , @Eternally-Grateful ,@Dizerner , @praise_yeshua , @Selah and finally last but certainly not least. @civic

One question that has confounded me for a very long time.

It is said that thing like love and faith are often referred to as "works" because they are actions or expressions that demonstrate a person's beliefs and values.

Why? Why should something like love or faith be a work. As we are told of Faith It should be a natural reaction to Heb 11:1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

A work to me is often difficult where neither the love of God or the faith I hold is.

works /wûrk/

Plural form of work

noun​

  1. Physical or mental effort or activity directed toward the production or accomplishment of something.
So I love the Father, I love the Son and I love the Holy Spirit, and my faith is because my know,knows that what I have been taught , read, seen, and heard is true. As have my personal experiences.

So this is an effort toward accomplishing something?

AI says....In the Bible, "works" refers to actions, deeds, or activities performed by individuals, often associated with obedience to God's commandments and moral conduct. It signifies the evidence of faith and is significant in both the Old and New Testaments, highlighting the importance of good works as an expression of one's faith and relationship with God.

Much closer I think, but still misses the mark when folks apply work(s) to emotions such as love and faith.

The original authors missed the mark on this one.... for sure.

Opinions?
 
You define faith as seperated apart from obedience. That is a new definition of saving faith.
Saving faith is not defined "as" works as I already shared with you from Hebrews 11:1 and the Strong's Concordance. You continue to confuse the root of salvation (faith) with the fruit of salvation. (works)
James does not define faith that saves as alone apart from works.
James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14) Simple!
I'm still waiting for a quotation from you on James chapter 2 that says justified by faith alone.
Still waiting? I already covered this with you. See post #21. James is talking about an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" barren of works. *Notice says/claims to have faith but has no works. (James 2:14) That is not genuine faith but a bare profession of faith. Not to be confused with faith that trusts in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)
No commentary by you. Just quote James teaching what you teach on faith.
Commentary? So everything that I already explained to you so far just went right over your head? Does anything that I explain to you register at all?

You need to read James 2:24 in context. In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

The Greek word for justified "dikaioo":

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered - *fits the context.
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

It is through faith "in Jesus Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony* :)
I can quote him with no commentary teaching on faith alone.

James 2:24,
- ye see then how by works a man is justified and not by faith only
You quote James out of context which remains your Achilles heel. In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to evidence his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So, when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. So, James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine.
You define faith as seperated apart from obedience. That is a new definition of saving faith.
Faith is not defined "as" obedience/works which "follow" saving faith in Christ and are produced "out of" faith. You just don't get it and until the veil is lifted you won't get it. 🙏
James does not define faith that saves as alone apart from works.
I'm still waiting for a quotation from you on James chapter 2 that says justified by faith alone.
No commentary by you. Just quote James teaching what you teach on faith.

I can quote him with no commentary teaching on faith alone.

James 2:24,
- ye see then how by works a man is justified and not by faith only
In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

The harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous. James, however, is using the term to describe those who would show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do.
 
Why should something like love or faith be a work.

You have to realize that in Christian teaching and debate the word "works" has become laden down with a whole set of ideas and theology that the original word simply does not have.

Some people bristle and revolt at the word as representing the very heart of a legalistic attempt to earn heaven.

Others immediately latch on as a way to fight a compromising and passive idea that a Christian can live "any old way they want."

The word in the original just means at its base an "action," and from there can have several nuances like a manifestation, accomplishment or task.

But if we say that any action automatically is an attempt to merit heaven, than any act of the will including simply the reception of a gift becomes itself a form of attempting self-merit. That is, even just the bare acceptance of a gift must be trying to earn it.

And if you were consistent in your logic here, you would have to completely eliminate all human free will in the name of grace. After all, what could possibly be more gracious than us literally do nothing at all, and God literally doing everything?

But every person who believes in free will knows that cannot be true. So what do some do? They sort of make a little "one time exception" but keep the basic idea that contradicts their exception. They literally want to eat their cake and have it too.

Now a one tiny little itty-bitty mini-work can be somehow exempted from the term work, because they do not like the theologically laden word "work" to be allowed to be used at all, for any reason.

But remember—work is just an action—and if grace means no action is taken, human will is out of the picture; if taking a gift earns the gift, literally even just a bare yes to grace somehow merits heaven. That is, if—IF—we stay logically consistent and don't allow ourselves to double speak.

But there is a strange temptation surrounding double speak, because if I like certain aspect of both sides of a dichotomy, both sides of a position that contradict each other, and I want to keep a little of each even though I know they are not really compatible, I can play little mental games and just simply start double speaking—in one situation when I like it, I say A, in another situation when I don't like it, I say NOT A, and it just depends on the framework. Then I say they are "compatible" even though they directly logically contradict, then I say anyone is "misrepresenting" me whenever anyone calls out my inconsistency.

And thus a stronghold is born.

Now we can allow "works" when we want to, say they are not really works, and no long require ourselves to be logically consistent.

But Scripture has a lot to say about works, and it's not all negative, it's not all "works bad." Jesus directly tells Blood-bought saints that he will judge them by their works, and he knows their works to the point their very salvation is in jeopardy, in the beginning of Revelation. And I will, for now, ignore the irrational pretzels that are woven to try to get out of that one, lol.

And a person will accuse you of "pitting James against Paul," if you don't simply assume "their" version of works. So the word "works" gets blacklisted and hijacked and laden with ideas that don't necessarily accompany it. If you even breathe the word "works" then you are subverting all forms of grace and the gift of the Cross providing our merit for us.

But this is them simply framing the narrative, bringing in their presuppositions and acting like they are the only game in town.

We cannot simply assume works only has one meaning.

We cannot simply assume works always is something negative.

When Paul speaks of works he is always framing it in the context on a specific kind of works, a certain kind of action.

We need to shatter the religious stereotype of what "works" has come to mean and go back to the original sources, and back to Scripture, which tells us that even Christian believers trusting in the Cross WILL be judged by their works—and sometimes condemned.

Grace has never once meant passivity, nor an abdication of responsibilty, nor the elimination of human free choice.

It's time to take back the Biblical meaning of Grace and Works from the hands of those who are twisting it and painting their own narrative.
 
Amazing.
So if they did not March around by obeying Gods instruction they could have been saved by their belief alone.
Nowhere does the Bible teach this.
This is man made theology out of the reformation movement.
Hebrews 11:30 is about the fall of the walls of Jericho and is not about salvation in the eternal sense. This verse illustrates how God used faith to achieve victory in the Israelites' conquest of Jericho. This is referring to a physical deliverance and not an eternal spiritual one.

So, saved by belief in Jesus Christ alone (John 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 16:31; Romans 4:5-6; 10:4 etc..) is not the issue here. Your man made theology of works righteousness comes out of Roman Catholicism and the restoration movement.
 
The original authors missed the mark on this one.... for sure.
The original author of the Bible is the Holy Spirit. So I'm not sure what you mean by this.
I sincerely don't understand what you mean. Please clarify.

It is said that thing like love and faith are often referred to as "works" because they are actions or expressions that demonstrate a person's beliefs and values.

Why? Why should something like love or faith be a work.
Is love telling "your" grandmother who lives in a nursing home that you love her but never visit her or even put forth the effort to take time out of your schedule to call and talk to her.
Just once maybe at a family reunion you end up together and you say, I love you.

My Dad almost never told me he loved me.
Nothing wrong with saying it but that is the way he was raised so that is how he raised me.
Love is expressed through deeds, actions.
Jesus is the best example of love.
He demonstrated his love for us during His entire life.
The tremendous effort He put into willingly suffering for us on the cross was love.
Just imagine if Jesus did nothing but say I love you. Wheres the proof that love is genuine?

Wives, children same thing.
Love takes effort.
1Corinthians 13:4-7,
- Love suffereth long and is kind love envieth not love vaunteth not itself is not puffed up
Doth not behave itself unseemly seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil, rejoiceth not in iniquity but rejoiceth in the truth

You can see the effort that goes into all these things that love does and does not.


AI says....In the Bible, "works" refers to actions, deeds, or activities performed by individuals, often associated with obedience to God's commandments and moral conduct. It signifies the evidence of faith and is significant in both the Old and New Testaments, highlighting the importance of good works as an expression of one's faith and relationship with God.

Much closer I think, but still misses the mark when folks apply work(s) to emotions such as love and faith
Emotion is not love. Love produces emotion.
Lust is strong desire.
This desire can be sexual.
Lust and love are not the same. But both involve emotions.

Agape love. Unconditional love.
Philia love. Brotherly love.
Storge love.Natural affection. Abortion is the absence of natural affection.
Eros love.Passinate love. Like in marriage.

So I love the Father, I love the Son and I love the Holy Spirit, and my faith is because my know,knows that what I have been taught , read, seen, and heard is true. As have my personal experiences.

So this is an effort toward accomplishing something?
If a person is lost then they must put forth effort to be saved.
Their effort does not merit salvation but God requires faithfulness and faithfulness requires effort.
Revelation 2:10, Matthew 10:22
- and ye shall be hated of all men for My names sake, but he that endureth till the end shall be saved

Yes, effort is required by Jesus to be saved.
Now in Dan's theology you can be a practicing pedophile and just believe in Jesus and you will be saved.
Even if you never stop the sin of pedophilia you cannot be lost.
Because your efforts cannot save you.
Only grace and belief with no keeping of Gods law saves in Dan's religion.
 
Hebrews 11:30 is about the fall of the walls of Jericho and is not about salvation in the eternal sense. This verse illustrates how God used faith to achieve victory in the Israelites' conquest of Jericho. This is referring to a physical deliverance and not an eternal spiritual one.
Then you are teaching Gods people in the old testament could be disobedient to God, not do the work He gave them to do and still be saved eternally.

Again you help me prove your gospel is salvation by belief alone and no obedience.
Salvation through disobedience.
 
Saving faith is not defined "as" works as I already shared with you from Hebrews 11:1 and the Strong's Concordance. You continue to confuse the root of salvation (faith) with the fruit of salvation. (works)
Taking the word pistis out of Strongs concordance doesn't explain what faith is when put into practice.
You must use words in context to understand there meaning.
This is why you do not understand repentance.
A change of mind does not explain Biblical repentance.
Paul has the best verse on what Biblical repentance is.

If a man cheats on taxes but quits cheating for fear of going to jail.
He has changed his mind.
But he did not repent.
Biblical repentance needs more explanation than just a change of mind.

If the man who cheats on his taxes knew he could get away with it, he would continue to cheat.
The only reason he changed his mind according to the apostle Paul is worldly sorrow.
He's only concerned with self. Not with doing what is right in Gods eyes.
Changing ones mind does not give a good explanation of repentance.

As pistis does not explain Biblical saving faith without context.
 
@Titus , @mailmandan , @Eternally-Grateful ,@Dizerner , @praise_yeshua , @Selah and finally last but certainly not least. @civic

One question that has confounded me for a very long time.

It is said that thing like love and faith are often referred to as "works" because they are actions or expressions that demonstrate a person's beliefs and values.

Why? Why should something like love or faith be a work. As we are told of Faith It should be a natural reaction to Heb 11:1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

A work to me is often difficult where neither the love of God or the faith I hold is.

works /wûrk/

Plural form of work

noun​

  1. Physical or mental effort or activity directed toward the production or accomplishment of something.
So I love the Father, I love the Son and I love the Holy Spirit, and my faith is because my know,knows that what I have been taught , read, seen, and heard is true. As have my personal experiences.

So this is an effort toward accomplishing something?

AI says....In the Bible, "works" refers to actions, deeds, or activities performed by individuals, often associated with obedience to God's commandments and moral conduct. It signifies the evidence of faith and is significant in both the Old and New Testaments, highlighting the importance of good works as an expression of one's faith and relationship with God.

Much closer I think, but still misses the mark when folks apply work(s) to emotions such as love and faith.

The original authors missed the mark on this one.... for sure.

Opinions?
I almost wrote a response that dealt with defining works earlier. You know the subject well enough to make this argument. Which to me is rare.

I almost started down this "road" earlier but I'm glad I didn't. It is rare for me to actually to see anyone actually deal this facet of the conversation. Theologians of all sorts avoid these arguments because they know it is part of losing battle.

The problem with AI is the fact it doesn't have a independent mind. It tries to blend theological precepts where there is no blend to be found. AI isn't the first. "Pleasing men" began a long time ago.

Which is why you get crazy attempts to blend the words of "James" and "Paul" as if they are teaching the exact same thing. They're not. They are close but James has a flawed understanding of what Jesus Christ brought to the "discussion".

The praise is all due Jesus Christ. There is none left for anyone else. NONE.

Gal_6:13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.

When these "people" talk of "works" it is always in the context of what they would approve themselves. Not how God sees the efforts of man.

We know how God sees flesh.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

God's choice in creation is found here....

1Co 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
1Co 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
1Co 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

I'll ask a very simple question. Who cares about being justified in the sight of men?

May I remind you that Paul gave his life for Christ. So did the other apostles. Killed for defending the need of Christ absent the efforts of man at all levels. Also, Paul fought endless with those that talked of "works" that they never keep themselves. So you have hypocrites demanding adherence to things they don't adhere to themselves.

This is all about control. I stopped trying to control Christians serving God a long time ago.

Now, if any of you want to debate "works".... I'm ready. Been ready.

Lets start here.....

Faith isn't a work. Nor is love. Yet, faith is nothing without love.

Love is an expression of the will of man. You can't fake it to God. It can't be faked to God. It is the very reason this life is designed the way God designed. It is designed to expose and craft the willingness of mind to love another.

God is too smart to force someone to love Him.
 
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Taking the word pistis out of Strongs concordance doesn't explain what faith is when put into practice.
You must use words in context to understand there meaning.
This is why you do not understand repentance.
A change of mind does not explain Biblical repentance.
Paul has the best verse on what Biblical repentance is.

If a man cheats on taxes but quits cheating for fear of going to jail.
He has changed his mind.
But he did not repent.
Biblical repentance needs more explanation than just a change of mind.

If the man who cheats on his taxes knew he could get away with it, he would continue to cheat.
The only reason he changed his mind according to the apostle Paul is worldly sorrow.
He's only concerned with self. Not with doing what is right in Gods eyes.
Changing ones mind does not give a good explanation of repentance.

As pistis does not explain Biblical saving faith without context.

I would generally agree but you're leaving out the most important aspect of the "change of mind".

It is what you change your mind to believe. When your mind changes to how God "sees it", then you're right in the middle of repentance.

Which really defeats your position.

Example, remember the "fig tree" that hadn't produced fruit? What did Jesus say to do to it? You're looking for immediate things that don't always happen. Sometimes it takes time to get to the point you actually come into agreement with God.

Also, your view of "fruit" is flawed.

Remember, "fruit of our lips"

Heb 13:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.

It is much easier in this life to offer the fruit of praise (well. It actually isn't due to false doctrine)..... to God for your common failure in sin and forgiveness of such..... than it is to try and prove YOURSELF to others.

When you think you're standing...... guess what happens.

1Co 10:12 So let the one who thinks he is standing be careful that he does not fall.
 
What about those that have fruit you'd accept that have zero acceptance of Jesus Christ?

That's not real fruit, it's fake humanistic moralism with zero genuine love or honor for God.

There is no other way to the Father but by JESUS.

Our own righteousness will send us to hell.
 
That's not real fruit, it's fake humanistic moralism with zero genuine love or honor for God.

There is no other way to the Father but by JESUS.

Our own righteousness will send us to hell.

So works have no Eternal value without the proper intent?

Luk 10:27 The expert answered, “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind, and love your neighbor as yourself.”

?
 
I would generally agree but you're leaving out the most important aspect of the "change of mind".

It is what you change your mind to believe. When your mind changes to how God "sees it", then you're right in the middle of repentance.

Which really defeats your position.

Example, remember the "fig tree" that hadn't produced fruit? What did Jesus say to do to it? You're looking for immediate things that don't always happen. Sometimes it takes time to get to the point you actually come into agreement with God
Give book chapter and verse on repentance.
Until then I'm not interested in your opinions.
 
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