James' Teaching On Justification: Before Men Or Before God?

[Dizerner]

you can't produce fruit until one is saved, born again where the Holy Spirit produces the fruit. its a by product of salvation not a prerequisite.

do u think a christian can have absolutely zero fruit yes or no

 

[Titus]

You better be perfect then

Because that is what the law requires

There are many on these forums that cannot be taught.
You are one of them.

I'm not under the old law of Moses.
No one today is under the law of Moses.
I dont teach that anyone has to keep any law under the old covenant.
This is a misrepresentation of what I teach.
Baptist church's teach one law.
They are teaching error.

He believes we must obey gods commands to be saved

That's law keeping.
You just contradicted yourself and this is why I don't like engaging in any discussion with you.
You fail to make logical arguments.
More importantly you fail to give Scriptural arguments.

Obeying what commandments of God?
The law of Moses?
The new testament law of Christ? Galatians 6:2.

Belief or faith to be saved is a commandment under the new testament law of Christ.
That is not keeping or binding works of the old law of Moses on us to be saved.

Like Titus. Teaching we must obey commands. Basically putting us under law and Not under grace

I've been debating this very subject on this forum.
My position has always been we are not under any of the law of Moses.

You dont have eyes to see nor ears to hear. You are a waste of my time.

Galatians 2:3,16
- but neither Titus who was a Greek was compelled to be circumcised
- knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law(law of Moses)
But by faith of Jesus Christ even we have believed in Jesus Christ that we might be justified by faith of Christ
and NOT by the works of the law for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified

How many times will EG misrepresent me?
The real problem is EG is a poor Bible student and does not understand my arguments.
My advice to you EG. Stop wasting your time on here arguing about things you dont understand and go study your Bible.

Necessary to be saved?

No that would put us under law

Perfect example of ET ignorance.
He is claiming we are not under law today.

If we are not under law then no one is accountable for their sins against God.

I've heard him say we are under grace not law.

Like Titus. Teaching we must obey commands. Basically putting us under law and Not under grace

Grace is instruction to do the will of God.
By doing Gods will we are kept under Gods grace.
No one was ever blessed with Gods grace that rebelled against Gods will.
Grace is conditional. Condition upon following Gods instruction.

Gods new testament law is Gods instruction.
Obeying Gods instruction gifts us with His grace and mercy.
No one in disobedience to Gods instruction receives Gods grace.
You cannot seperate Gods grace from His new testament gospel which is His will.
Titus 2:11-12,
- for the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men
- teaching us(Gods grace instructs us what to do) that denying ungodlyness and worldly lusts we should live soberly, righteously and godly, in this present world

The present world which is the new testament gospel age, we are to follow Gods teaching which is His Grace.
God loves us so He teaches us how to be saved. That's grace. We do not deserve anything from God. But Gods goodness has grace and mercy on us, therefore He tells us what we must do to be saved by Him.

Matthew 7:21,
- not everyone that saith Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven but he that doeth the will of My Father which is heaven

You are only under grace if you do Gods will which is obeying His commandments.

 

[mailmandan]

Genuine faith is so closely tied with obedience that the two cannot be seperated.

As I previously stated, faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root. You error my making both faith and works the root of salvation which culminates in works righteousness.

Dan tries to be saved by a faith that is barren of works and by his own admission is a dead faith according to James.

False. My faith saved me the moment that I placed my faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) several years ago. My faith has not remained barren of works so it's not a dead faith. We are saved by faith at its origin and not by faith and works. Your straw man arguments are uncalled for.

Belief itself is a work.

What work was accomplished through belief? Choosing to believe in Christ for salvation is not just another work in a series of works in a quest to obtain salvation by works. Paul said we are saved through faith, not works and not faith and works.

Biblically it is impossible to separate works from belief.
Yet Dan demands there is no works in salvation.

As I clearly stated multiple times now. Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root. Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of saving belief, but not the very essence of saving belief and also not the basis or means by which we obtain salvation.

John 6:28-29,
- then said they unto Jesus, what shall we do that we might work the works of God
- Jesus answered and said unto them, this is the work of God that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent

In John 6:29, Jesus said - "This is the work (singular) of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent," when He answered the Jews (who were taking a legalistic approach) when they asked, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works (plural) of God?" So, by Jesus' play on words here, He was not implying that believing is just "another" work in a series of works in a quest to receive salvation by works, as you seem to teach. Also, through believing, we are completely trusting in "Another's work," (Christ's finished work of redemption - Romans 3:24-28). There is a distinction between faith and works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

Belief by itself is a work according to Jesus.
If all God required was belief alone for salvation then works would be required as belief is a work.
Do deny this is to deny Jesus' own teaching on belief.

You are thoroughly confused.

Also belief in Jesus is a commandment.
Keeping commandments are the good works we do to recieve Gods grace.

Did Paul say that we are saved by grace through faith + keeping commandments in Ephesians 2:8? No. Paul said saved by grace through faith, not works. Did Paul say, having been justified by faith, + keeping commandments in Romans 5:1? No. Simply justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith + keeping commandments into this grace in verse 2? No. Simply we have access by faith into this grace. Your gospel of works righteousness cancels out grace. (Romans 11:6)

The only way to get obedience to Gods commandments out of salvation is to remove belief in Jesus as a requirement to be saved.
The calvinist make more logical sense than Dan by teaching regeneration, salvation comes before belief in Jesus, His gospel.
That changes Gods grace into an unconditional gift.
But as soon as you include faith as a requirement to be saved, grace then becomes conditional.
Every condition that God requires for us to recieve grace includes obedience to Jesus' new testament commandments.

I am not a Calvinist and Calvinism seems to be the boogey man on this forum. Salvation is by grace through faith and not by works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) To believe anything else is to miss salvation.

Obeying commandments is works of faith.
Love for God and faith in Jesus is where the motivation originates to work obedience to God.
These are literally works of faith.
1John 3:23-24,
- and this is Gods commandment that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another as He gave us commandment

Man is saved by faith and not by works produced "out of" faith and faith works through love. (Galatians 5:6) We are commanded to love one another yet our best efforts to do so is not how we are saved. We are saved through faith FIRST then God’s love is poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us. (Romans 5:5)

You cannot escape that we must work Gods commandment of belief in order to receive Gods grace.
Gods grace is conditional!!!
To claim no works are involved in salvation is to contradict what belief is i.e. a work of obedience to Gods commandments.

So, you "add" all of God's commandments to salvation through faith? That is salvation by works. You cannot escape that man is saved by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Believers demonstrate that they have come to know Him by keeping (guarding, observing, watching over) His commandments. (1 John 2:3)

Yes.
And you Sir are demanding that we are saved by a dead faith. A faith that does not work obedience to Gods commandments.

When all else fails play the strawman card.

Paul's faith was not barren of obedient works.
Paul's faith was geniune saving faith.

Amen! My faith is not barren of obedient works either and my faith is genuine saving faith because I trust in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and so did Paul. Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of saving faith.

Jesus required more of Paul than just his initial belief on the road to Damascus.
Paul's conversion debunks the false gospel of salvation by belief and no obedience to God.

What did Jesus say in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26? What happened to belief + works for salvation there?

Acts 9:4-6,
- and he(Saul/Paul) fell to the earth and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest Me(Jesus)
- and he said, who art thou, Lord, and the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks
- and he(Saul/Paul) trembling and astonished said, Lord what wilt thou have me to do

Paul was converted and ready to serve the Lord. Paul was not asking what work he must do to be saved. He was already saved when he placed his faith in Jesus Christ for salvation.

Note: Jesus did not teach what Dan would teach Paul.
Dan would teach Paul there was nothing for him to do as his belief alone saved him.
Jesus never taught belief only salvation.
Listen to Jesus. Does He tell Paul he has nothing more to do?

You remain confused. The do was not for salvation but from salvation. You think salvation is all about what you DO rather than what Jesus Christ has already DONE because you teach salvation by works.

Verse 6,
- and he trembling and astonished said, Lord what wilt thou have me to do
- and the Lord said unto him, Arise and go into the city and it shall be told thee what thou must do

The Greek word Jesus used here for must means:
- it is nessary.
- One must.
- it is  binding.
- it is required by duty, law, or divine appointment.

Suffering for Christ as a new convert is what Paul must do BECAUSE he is saved and not in order to become saved. Your mind is consumed with works righteousness.

Paul was never saved by his belief alone on the road to Damascus.
If so salvation comes before one obeys Jesus' direct commandments!!!

Acts 10:43; 13:38-39; 16:31 (plus many more verses) refutes your argument. You clearly trust in works for salvation and not in Jesus Christ alone. Let the boasting begin for you. As for me, But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. (Galatians 6:14)

And that is essentially what faith alone salvation is.
It is salvation by belief and no obedience to Gods commandments.
A salvation through disobedience rather than obedience.

That is your flawed view of what genuine believers mean by faith alone salvation but it's not the truth. Man is saved the moment he placed his faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ "alone" for salvation (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) which is not to be confused with an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" barren of works. (James 2:14) The moment we are saved through faith, we received the Holy Spirit and the love of God and become new creations in Christ Jesus. (Ephesians 1:13; Romans 5:5; 2 Corinthians 5:17) We have been changed! Praise God! Obedience/works follow having been saved through faith as we have been created in Christ Jesus unto good works. (Ephesians 2:10) Your continued straw man arguments and false gospel are very telling.

Acts 22:16,
- and now why tarriest thou, Arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord

This occured three days after Paul believed in Jesus on the road to Damascus.
The scriptures teach us Paul was still in his sins until he obeyed what Jesus told him what he must do.

I was teaching on faith and how the Bible defines it.
I was not teaching on Jesus' saving work on the cross.
Claiming I dont grasp putting full trust in Jesus for my salvation is NOT THE TOPIC WE WERE DISCUSSING.
You either don't pay attention or you are creating straw man arguments as you like to accuse me of.

Straw man fallacy definition: a strawman is a type of logical fallacy where someone misrepresents or oversimplifies another persons argument to make it easier to attack or refute.

Through bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics, you teach a works based false gospel. In regard to Acts 22:16, Paul had already believed in Christ when Ananias came to pray for him to receive his sight (Acts 9:17). It also should be noted that Paul at the time when Ananias prayed for him to receive his sight, he was filled with the Holy Spirit (Acts 9:17)--this was BEFORE he was water baptized (Acts 9:18). Verse 17 connects his being filled with the Spirit with the receiving of his sight. We know that he received his sight prior to his baptism.

It's interesting that when Paul recounted this event again later in Acts (Acts 26:12-18), he did not mention Ananias or what Ananias said to him at all. Verse 18 again would confirm the idea that Paul received Christ as Savior on the road to Damascus since here Christ is telling Paul he will be a messenger for Him concerning forgiveness of sins for Gentiles as they have faith in Him. It would seem unlikely that Christ would commission Paul if Paul had not yet believed in Him and was still lost in his sins. Be sure to read this excellent article on Acts 22:16 - https://kentbrandenburg.blogspot.com/2015/03/acts-2216-baptism-essential-for.html

 

[civic]

do u think a christian can have absolutely zero fruit yes or no

Personally what I believe is no. That’s like saying the Holy Spirit does not transform a believer.

 

[Titus]

As I previously stated, faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate there is no root. You error my making both faith and works the root of salvation which culminates in works righteousness.

I've never used the word fruit.
I challenge you to find where I used the word fruit?

Works are not the fruit of the Spirit.
The fruit of the Spirit is the change in a persons heart that results in good works to God.

So fruit of the Spirit is the internal transformation while good works are the outward manifestation of that transformation.

Fruit of the Spirit is never taught by Jesus as a prerequisite for the lost alien sinner to be saved.
Fruit is what the saved produce.

You are confusing works of faith with fruit of the Spirit.

There are works in salvation like faith.
These works are not fruit of the Spirit.
Again fruit of the Spirit is not works itself. Fruit of the Spirit produces works.

Repentance is a work. A work of faith.

Works of faith which are works of obedience are required to be saved.
Fruit of the Spirit develops after one is saved.

faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit.

This makes makes no scriptual sense.
Sounds good but is nothing more than man made reasoning.

Faith and works cannot be seperated as the scriptures prove this to be true.
John 6:28-29 Jesus teaches belief is a work.
1 John 3:23-24 Jesus' law teaches we must work the commandment of believing in Jesus.

Therefore you cannot seperate belief from work.
Biblically belief in Christ is a work.

Dan will always contradict what Biblical faith is as long as he holds to salvation being apart from obedience to God or faith not being a work.

Through bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics, you teach a works based false gospel.

Wrong. Obeying Gods gospel is not works based but grace based.
You redefine,
Faith
Repentance
Confession
Baptism
As meritorious works which the Bible never teaches.
These works are literally faith put in action. Works of faith.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

do u think a christian can have absolutely zero fruit yes or no

What did James say?

Would someone who has living faith produce no fruit?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

There are many on these forums that cannot be taught.
You are one of them.

I'm not under the old law of Moses.
No one today is under the law of Moses.
I dont teach that anyone has to keep any law under the old covenant.
This is a misrepresentation of what I teach.
Baptist church's teach one law.
They are teaching error.


That's law keeping.
You just contradicted yourself and this is why I don't like engaging in any discussion with you.
You fail to make logical arguments.
More importantly you fail to give Scriptural arguments.

Obeying what commandments of God?
The law of Moses?
The new testament law of Christ? Galatians 6:2.

Belief or faith to be saved is a commandment under the new testament law of Christ.
That is not keeping or binding works of the old law of Moses on us to be saved.

I've been debating this very subject on this forum.
My position has always been we are not under any of the law of Moses.

You dont have eyes to see nor ears to hear. You are a waste of my time.

Galatians 2:3,16
- but neither Titus who was a Greek was compelled to be circumcised
- knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law(law of Moses)
But by faith of Jesus Christ even we have believed in Jesus Christ that we might be justified by faith of Christ
and NOT by the works of the law for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified

How many times will EG misrepresent me?
The real problem is EG is a poor Bible student and does not understand my arguments.
My advice to you EG. Stop wasting your time on here arguing about things you dont understand and go study your Bible.


Perfect example of ET ignorance.
He is claiming we are not under law today.

If we are not under law then no one is accountable for their sins against God.

I've heard him say we are under grace not law.

Grace is instruction to do the will of God.
By doing Gods will we are kept under Gods grace.
No one was ever blessed with Gods grace that rebelled against Gods will.
Grace is conditional. Condition upon following Gods instruction.

Gods new testament law is Gods instruction.
Obeying Gods instruction gifts us with His grace and mercy.
No one in disobedience to Gods instruction receives Gods grace.
You cannot seperate Gods grace from His new testament gospel which is His will.
Titus 2:11-12,
- for the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men
- teaching us(Gods grace instructs us what to do) that denying ungodlyness and worldly lusts we should live soberly, righteously and godly, in this present world

The present world which is the new testament gospel age, we are to follow Gods teaching which is His Grace.
God loves us so He teaches us how to be saved. That's grace. We do not deserve anything from God. But Gods goodness has grace and mercy on us, therefore He tells us what we must do to be saved by Him.

Matthew 7:21,
- not everyone that saith Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven but he that doeth the will of My Father which is heaven

You are only under grace if you do Gods will which is obeying His commandments.

Let get to the truth

Does @Titus believe one can forfiet salvation or lose it by not obeying can salvation be lost

Or does true saving faith save forever the person who was saved?

 

[Titus]

In John 6:29, Jesus said - "This is the work (singular) of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent," when He answered the Jews (who were taking a legalistic approach) when they asked, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works (plural) of God?" So, by Jesus' play on words here, He was not implying that believing is just "another" work in a series of works in a quest to receive salvation by works, as you seem to teach. Also, through believing, we are completely trusting in "Another's work," (Christ's finished work of redemption - Romans 3:24-28). There is a distinction between faith and works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

Jesus said believing in Him is a work.
There is no play on words as far as belief in Jesus being a commandment of God.
Any commandment that God gives is a work of faith that we work in obedience.

Since belief in Christ is a commandment it is an act of obedience.
The word believe in the Greek is a verb. It is an action word.
All commandments that we obey are actions. Putting faith into action.

Claiming belief is not a work is claiming obeying Gods commandments are not works.
Dan name one commandment of God that is not obeyed therefore worked by us?

You cannot get around commandments being works that we work.

John 6:28-29,
- then they said to Jesus what shall we do that we might work the works of God,
- Jesus answered and said to them, this is the work of God that ye believe on Him whom He natu sent

John 14:12,
- verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on Me, the works that I do he shall do also and greater works than these shall he do, because I go to My Father

John 6:29, Jesus said - "This is the work (singular) of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent," when He answered the Jews (who were taking a legalistic approach) when they asked, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works (plural) of God?" So, by Jesus' play on words here, He was not implying that believing is just "another" work in a series of works in a quest to receive salvation by works, as you seem to teach.

I want everyone who is interested in learning what Biblical saving faith is to notice that faith onlyist like Dan interpret belief being a work as legalism.

This is to discredit any teaching that involves works being part of salvation.
When you obey Gods will, which for Jesus is His new testament gospel.
That cannot be defined as legalism.
It really is faithfull obedience to Jesus Christ.

It is an absurdity to claim when Jesus commands you do do something like believe in Him as calling that legalism if it is in fact a work of obedience.

For example: after we are saved both Dan and myself teach we are to do good works, Ephesians 2:10.
Are any of these works we do in obedience to Gods will?
All of them are what God desires for His people to do.
Therefore they cannot be defined as legalism.
To do so makes God a legalist for these good works are His workmanship. He created us to do good works.

Jews were legalistic because they rejected Jesus' commandments and tried to be saved by self righteous meritorious law keeping of the old testament.
That is going against Gods will.
They created their own plan for saving themselves through their own system of law keeping.
That is legalism.
When you submit to Gods will from love for Him and from faith in Him.
That is Biblical saving faith not legalism.
So claiming someone is a legalist because they believe belief in Christ is a work of obedience to Gods will is miss labeling them to discredit their position.

Jesus said belief is a work that we must obey, John 6:28-29 ; John 14:12 ; 1John 3:23-24.
The apostle John teaches what I teach not what Dan teaches.

You error my making both faith and works the root of salvation which culminates in works righteousness.

Faith Biblically defined is a work.
I do not pervert the meaning of Biblical words.
Unlike faith onlyist.

The "root" of salvation would be grace through faith.
Gods part: Grace.
Mans part: faith.

I dont subscribe to the one thing alone fallacy.
Jesus never taught faith alone is salvation.
Jesus never taught grace alone is salvation.
Jesus never taught He alone would save all mankind without requiring something of us to receive His grace.

Jesus taught, by grace we were saved through faith. That this salvation is not of ourselves, not of our earning salvation through meritorious works but a free gift of God so that no man could boast of saving himself apart from needing Gods mercy and grace.

Ephesians 2:8-9,
- for by grace (Gods part) are ye saved through faith( mans part) and that not of yourselves (you did not earn your salvation) it is the gift of God(free gift not earned)
- not of works (works of merit like the Jews that thought they could save themselves by keeping the law of Moses and even added to the law of Moses, laws that were from man not God, legalism) lest any man should boast( if man could work his way to heaven he would boast about his works)
This is the same kind of works that Paul is teaching about in Romans chapter 4,
Romans 4:2,
- for if Abraham were justified by works he hath whereof to  boast but not before God

Boastful works are meritorious works.
These are the kind of works Paul is condemning in Romans 4 and Ephesians 2:8-9.

Believing in Jesus' gospel is a work and will never be a boastful work, a work of merit, legalism.

All works that are involved in ones salvation are literally works of faith. James 2:24.

 

[Titus]

Let get to the truth

Does @Titus believe one can forfiet salvation or lose it by not obeying can salvation be lost

Or does true saving faith save forever the person who was saved?

Thats a different topic.
We are discussing what kind of faith James taught saves?
Faith with no obedient works or an obedient faith?

You being a Baptist will take the unscriptual position that one cannot forfeit His salvation.
James 5:19-.20.

 

[Dizerner]

What did James say?

Would someone who has living faith produce no fruit?

So you back-load works too, eh.

Sneaky.

 

[Titus]

False. My faith saved me the moment that I placed my faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)

Dan trust in Christ is when one does what Jesus tells them to do.
You have no trust if you only believe but do not obey the commandments in Jesus' gospel.

A Dad is on the other side of a busy street.
His son got separated from him.
He tells his son to trust him and do as he says.
He tells his son to cross the busy street.
The son says I have faith in my Dad so I trust what he says to do.
But the son has belief alone. He never acts on his faith by taking action.
Sitting on the other side of the street never taking action by crossing the street is not trust.
Trust is crossing the street.

Likewise faith if it does not do what Jesus says to do is not trust.
Dan claims belief alone is trusting in Jesus.
The Bible never teaches trust is doing nothing but mental assent.

Changing ones life by repentance is trusting in Jesus.
Confessing ones faith publicly in Jesus is trusting in Jesus.
Being baptized because Jesus says He will save us in baptism is trusting in Jesus.

Dan says the moment he placed his faith in Christ which in his religion means not doing any commandments just mentally believing in the death, burial and ressurection.

The moment he placed His faith in Christ he was supposedly saved.
Paul wasn't!!!
That doesn't fit Biblical salvation.
Paul completely new Jesus was the ressurected Messiah when Jesus revealed Himself to Paul face to face on the road to Damascus.
Yet Paul being a believer was not instantly saved.
I only go by what the Scriptures teach not a church the makes claims that I cannot read about in the new testament.

Paul said his sins were washed away three days after belief, Acts 22:16.
Was Paul saved the way Dan claims he was saved? No.
I will be saved just like Paul was saved. By the new testament gospel of Jesus Christ.

Remember
Jesus told Paul things he must do.
Dan's religious institution ignores Biblical evidence of what folks really did to be saved.
Faith alone salvation is theological tradition of certain protestant sects.
If Paul were here today he would never teach he was saved the moment he instantly believed in Jesus.

 

[mailmandan]

There is no such thing as merit in the work of faith.
Work of repentance.
Work of confession.
Work of baptism
These are works of our faith in Jesus.
To have trust in Jesus is to trust what He tells us to do in His plan of saving man, gospel.

Everything is a work for salvation to you. If we were saved by faith + works which "follow" faith then there would be merit on our part in receiving salvation. That may appeal to man's pride but you can't have it both ways.

Repentance is a change of mind which precedes faith in Christ (Acts 20:21) and is not a work for salvation. Confession is a confirmation of faith and is not a work for salvation. The word of faith is in our mouth and in our heart together. (Romans 10:8-10) Not two separate steps to salvation, but chronologically together. Water baptism is a work that follows salvation through faith. (Acts 10:43-47) To have faith in Jesus is to trust in what He did to save us (Romans 3:24-26) and not in what we do for Him to save ourselves. (works righteousness)

I've never believed one can earn salvation through merit.
That is a strawman you use in ignorance of what I teach and desperation to discredit me.

No, either we are saved by trusting (faith) or else we are saved by trying. (works) Either Jesus Christ is the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation or else we must "add" our works to His finished work of redemption in order to help Him save us. Again, you can't have it both ways.

In Romans 10:10 Paul teaches one believes unto righteousness

Yes believes unto righteousness. The moment we believe we are saved. (John 3:18; Acts 10:43; 16:31; Romans 1:16)

The word unto means towards something.
One believes but is moving towards righteousness.

Your eisegesis culminates in believes but still lost in contradiction to scripture. You so desperately desire to be saved by works so that you can boast in yourself. Oh the pride of man!

The word unto proves one is not made righteous the moment he believed in Jesus.

Absolutely false. Other translations say one believes with the heart resulting in righteousness/one believes with the heart and is justified. Your false gospel is on full display here.

Perfect example is Paul.
Paul was not made righteous the moment he believed in Jesus on the road to Damascus.
Paul was moving towards righteousness.
The very verses you use proves we are not made righteous the moment we believe only.

False. More eisegesis and works righteousness.

Romans 4:5 is Paul's teaching on how the works of the law of Moses do not save.
Paul is not teaching on the new testament commandments in Jesus' gospel that do save.

Paul teaches that works in general do not save. (Romans 4:2-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) The gospel according to Jesus is not salvation by works but salvation through believing. (Romans 1:16) You still don't believe.

Faith for example saves in Jesus' gospel but not alone.

We are saved by grace through faith + works? No, not of works (hence, faith alone) faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Lest anyone should boast.

Therefore, having been justified by faith "apart from additions or modifications" (hence, faith alone) we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Dan tries to claim nothing we do saves yet contradicts himself by teaching faith alone salvation.

There is no contradiction on my part. You just don't understand.

Faith is what we do. And faith saves.
Galatians 2:16,
- a person is not justified by works of the law(law of Moses just like Romans chapter 4)
- but through faith in Jesus Christ so we also have believed in Christ Jesus in order to be
justified by faith in Christ and NOT by the works of the law(law of Moses)

Amen! That is what we must do to be saved. Place our faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Your faith is in works.

Dan refuses to categorize what works are being discussed in context of the verses he uses.
This causes confusion and creates a smoke screen for the unlearned to think he is proving no works involved in salvation.

The confusion and smoke screen is on your part. Paul does not merely limit works simply to specific works under the law of Moses (Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) and when it comes to the moral aspect of the law you cannot dissect good works from the law. (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18; Matthew 22:37-40; James 2:15-16) So, the saved by "these" works (good works) but just not "those" works (works of the law) argument is bogus. *Roman Catholics make the same error that you do in regard to works. Red flag.

But in reality he is abusing Paul's teaching on works to conform what Paul says into faith alone salvation.

Its you who is abusing Paul's teaching on works to conform what Paul says into salvation by works.

Paul never taught faith apart from works was geniune saving faith.

Paul taught that man is accounted as righteous apart from works. (Romans 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9) Now genuine saving faith does not remain apart from the presence of works yet we are still saved by faith apart from the merit of works. This seems to be impossible for the natural man to fully grasp.

Galatians 5:6,
- for in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is worth anything but faith which worketh by love

Faith works by love does not mean we are saved by faith + love (acts of charity). It always comes back to works righteousness with you.

This is unscriptual teaching.
Notice Paul on the road to Damascus believed in the death, burial and ressurection of Christ.
Yet he was not saved.

Your argument here contradicts what Paul said in Romans 1:16 and 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. You simply refuse to believe the gospel.

Obedience to Jesus' gospel was not defined by Jesus Himself as just believing in His death, burial and ressurection.

So, you disregard Romans 1:16 and 1 Corinthians 15:1-4?

Jesus told Paul,he had to do works of obedience to be saved also.

That is your eisegesis.

The very last words of Jesus on earth was His great commission.
The great commission is His new testament gospel.
Matthew 28:18-20,
- Go ye therefore and teach(Jesus' gospel) all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit
- teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you....

The gospel here is not salvation by water baptism and flawlessly obeying everything Jesus has commanded (sinless perfection). Jesus said go and make disciples of all nations, which is done by preaching the gospel unto all nations, then baptize converts, and teach them to observe all that Jesus has commanded (Matthew 28:18-20) which is what believers strive to do yet we are not perfect. Water baptism is not a part of the gospel. (1 Corinthians 1:17; 15:1-4)

Jesus' very last commandment to His disciples was that all must be baptized into Christ, Galatians 3:26-27.
Jesus never taught all obedience is, is belief in Jesus as Dan claims.
That is a doctrine made up by men in the faith alone theology.

Again, more eisegesis from Titus. According to Jesus, all must believe or be condemned (John 3:18) yet Jesus never said that whoever is not water baptized will be condemned. We are Spirit baptized into the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13) and the only sense in which we are water baptized into Christ would be in the same sense that the Isralites were baptized into Moses. (1 Corinthians 10:2)

The Israelites were not literally water baptized into the body of Moses and there is little dispute that being "baptized into Moses" signified the open allegiance and public identification of the Israelites with Moses as their leader just as water baptism signifies our allegiance and public identification with Christ as our Savior, so it would only be in that sense.

Notice Paul was told what he must do.
Acts 22:16 is Paul being baptized into Christ. That is part of Paul's obedience in Jesus' gospel commandments.

More eisegesis which culminates in salvation by works. Take some time to meditate on this article below until the truth finally begins to sink in.

Acts 22:16--Baptism Essential for Salvation?

In Acts 22:16, Ananias tells Paul, “And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the...

kentbrandenburg.blogspot.com

Did Jesus teach Paul his obedience was to just believe? No.
That is a mans teaching like Dan.
I suggest we let Jesus define what obedience is not men.

You confuse the obedient act of choosing to believe the gospel with multiple acts of obedience/works which "follow." So do Roman Catholics and other Works-salvationists.

Jesus taught in obedience to His gospel mankind must obey all things whatsoever He has commanded us.
That's what Paul did.

Jesus' gospel is not a works based false gospel as taught by man but is the power of God unto salvation  to everyone that BELIEVES. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) Let me know when you are ready to repent (change your mind) and believe the gospel.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Thats a different topic.
We are discussing what kind of faith James taught saves?

I am talking about the faith that saves. And James agrees with Paul

Faith with no obedient works or an obedient faith?

Your sidestepping. Can you answer my question. You made an accusation you need to back it up

You being a Baptist will take the unscriptual position that one cannot forfeit His salvation.
James 5:19-.20.

Here we go. You just proved my point thank you

Now don’t ever falsely accuse me of not understanding what you believe again

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

So you back-load works too, eh.

Sneaky.

Nope

I just trust God will save people
Completely and them change the people he saves

That’s where we separate.

 

[Titus]

Everything is a work for salvation to you. If we were saved by faith + works which "follow" faith then there would be merit on our part in receiving salvation. That may appeal to man's pride but you can't have it both ways

You can continue in this redefining Biblical faith if you are dead set against Jesus' own teaching on faith but you will only impress those who ignore Biblical definitions of Biblical words.

As already taught by Jesus and myself. Belief in Christ is a work, John 6:28-29.
Trying to put faith by itself seperate from a work of God is creating new word definitions that Jesus nor His apostles never taught.

You must continue in this heresy to be saved by faith and no obedient works.
Since faith is a work of God that we work.
Works cannot follow after one has faith.
The two are joined together so closely that they cannot be seperated without changing the meaning of words.

Notice what the new testament writers called faith.
The very works they did is referred to as their faith.

Noah for example.
His work on the ark by Dan's religion is his works seperated from his faith.
But Biblically his obedient works are defined as his faith!!!!
Hebrews 11:6-7,
- but without faith it is impossible to please God for he that cometh to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him

- by  faith Noah being warned of God of things not seen as yet  moved with fear prepared and ark to the saving of his house by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith

The Bible teaches Noah's ark building which was obedient works was his faith!!!!
Noahs faith Worked by preparing the ark that did what?
Saved him and his household.
Did the Bible teach Nosh was saved by belief that was apart from works?
Did the the Bible teach Noah was first saved by belief with no works then after salvation Noah's faith produced fruit(works)?
No.
The Bible teaches saving faith is faith that obeys Gods commandments.
Only obedient faith recieves Gods grace.

You cannot find anyone under the new testament gospel that was saved by a faith that did nothing but believe.All of them believed and then received Gods grace when they obeyed Jesus' gospel.

Believe unto righteousness Romans 10:9-10

 

[mailmandan]

I've never used the word fruit.
I challenge you to find where I used the word fruit?

Do you understand what fruit is in scripture?

Works are not the fruit of the Spirit.
The fruit of the Spirit is the change in a persons heart that results in good works to God.

Works are the fruit of faith and salvation. A good tree (descriptive of believer) produces good fruit descriptive of good works. (Matthew 7:17)

So fruit of the Spirit is the internal transformation while good works are the outward manifestation of that transformation.

Amen! The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. (Galatians 5:22-23)

Fruit of the Spirit is never taught by Jesus as a prerequisite for the lost alien sinner to be saved.
Fruit is what the saved produce.

Exactly.

You are confusing works of faith with fruit of the Spirit.

How so?

There are works in salvation like faith.
These works are not fruit of the Spirit.
Again fruit of the Spirit is not works itself. Fruit of the Spirit produces works.

How did you end up taking me down this rabbit hole? Our ongoing discussion has been about faith and works.

Repentance is a work. A work of faith.

Repentance is a change of mind and the new direction of this change of mind is faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. Two sides to the same coin. In your errant theology you place repentance after faith and basically redefine it as moral self reformation and then it becomes a work for salvation. Everything is a work for salvation to you including faith. What a mess!

Works of faith which are works of obedience are required to be saved.
Fruit of the Spirit develops after one is saved.

False. That is salvation by works no matter how much you try and sugar coat it. Show me in scripture where Paul said we are saved by grace through faith + works of obedience. That is your eisegesis. Paul was crystal clear in scripture that we are NOT saved by works. (Romans 4:2-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

This makes makes no scriptual sense.
Sounds good but is nothing more than man made reasoning.

1 Corinthians 2:14.

Faith and works cannot be seperated as the scriptures prove this to be true.

Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. Basically to you faith "is" the works. You make no distinction.

John 6:28-29 Jesus teaches belief is a work.

Work of God (singular, play on words) in contrast with works (plural) of God (legalistuc approach).

1 John 3:23-24 Jesus' law teaches we must work the commandment of believing in Jesus.

Jesus already made it clear in John 3:18 - believe or condemned. Yet you try to "shoehorn" works into believing.

Therefore you cannot seperate belief from work.
Biblically belief in Christ is a work.

A work (singular) of God (play on words) in contrast to works (plural) of God (legaliistic approach). So, faith is not just another work in a series of works in a quest to obtain salvation by works. We are saved through faith, not works.

Dan will always contradict what Biblical faith is as long as he holds to salvation being apart from obedience to God or faith not being a work.

Its Titus who contradicts what Biblical faith and basically redefines faith "as" works. Titus needs to "shoehorn" works "into" salvation through faith, not works by turning faith into just another work in a series of works in order to uphold his works based false gospel.

Wrong. Obeying Gods gospel is not works based but grace based.

Its works based for you yet grace and works don't mix. (Romans 11:6) Also see Ephesians 2:8,9.

You redefine,
Faith
Repentance
Confession
Baptism
As meritorious works which the Bible never teaches.
These works are literally faith put in action. Works of faith.

Oh the irony. Its actually you who redefines these terms in order to teach salvation by faith + your own personal definition of non-meritorious works. A smoke and mirrors works based false gospel. Just like in Roman Catholicism. Faith is faith and works of faith (works produced out of faith) are still works and we are saved through faith, not works.

 

[Titus]

Repentance is a change of mind which precedes faith in Christ (Acts 20:21

Dan's church's teaching on repentance is that it precedes faith.
Nowhere under the new testament gospel of Jesus Christ does repantance precede faith.

The first gospel preached by Peter after he was Holy Spirit baptized occurs in Acts 2.

Notice:
First the Jews believe in Jesus by hearing the gospel preached by Peter, Acts 2:37.
Then after faith they are told by Peter to repent and to be baptized.

Acts 2:37-38,
- now when they heard this theywere pricked in the heart and said unto Peter and the rest of the apostles, men and brethren what shall we do

They obviously believed at this point as that is not a response someone gives that rejects the gospel as made up.
They believed Peter's gospel!!!
Now after faith they are told to repent.
Next verse,
38,
- then Peter said unto them repent and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit

Dan teaches doctrines that are not found in the new testament gospel of Jesus Christ.
His gospel has repentance before faith. Why?
Because his church figured out along time ago that repentance is a work.
They needed to get works out of salvation so they moved it.
But this dosen't help their error.
They still must repent before they get faith.
Therefore if one does not repent before faith one cannot be saved.

This false teaching shows its fallacy.
Gods wisdom does not create fallacies.
Therefore Dan's doctrine is from man not God.

Also notice.
When the Jews asked Peter and the rest of the apostles.
men and brethren what shall we do

Peter did not teach Dan's gospel.
He did not tell them there was nothing for them to do.
He did not tell them they were already saved by their belief alone.
He told them to repent and to be baptized for the forgiveness of their sins then they would receive the gift of the Holy Spiritl
Did they have the gift of the Holy Spirit the moment they believed?
Or after faith, repentance and baptism?

Dan's faith alone salvation is unbiblical.

 

[Titus]

More evidence Biblical faith that saves always is joined with obedience.
The Bible defines faith as their works.
Read Hebrews 11:30,
- by faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they were compassed about seven days


All that marching around the city of Jericho was what?
Dan's religion strictly only defines this as their good works.
But what does the author of Hebrews define their marching for seven days around Jericho?
Answer: Their faith!!!!

Faith that saves is never defined as being seperate from obedience to Gods commandments.
Dan's definitions of saving faith cannot be found in scripture.

 

[mailmandan]

You can continue in this redefining Biblical faith if you are dead set against Jesus' own teaching on faith but you will only impress those who ignore Biblical definitions of Biblical words.

Faith IS the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. (Hebrews 11:1) Straight from the Bible. You confuse what Biblical faith IS with what Biblical faith results in producing. I'm fine with Jesus' own teaching on faith. I'm just not fine with your eisegesis.

Pay close attention from the definition of faith below to - especially reliance upon Christ for salvation.

Strong's Greek: 4102. πίστις (pistis) -- Faith, belief, trust, confidence, fidelity

As already taught by Jesus and myself. Belief in Christ is a work, John 6:28-29.
Trying to put faith by itself seperate from a work of God is creating new word definitions that Jesus nor His apostles never taught.

Again, work (singular) of God (play on words) in contrast with works (plural) of God (legalistic approach). Faith is not just another work in a series of works in a quest to obtain salvation by works as you teach.

You must continue in this heresy to be saved by faith and no obedient works.
Since faith is a work of God that we work.

Its your heresy of works righteousness that is the problem. Show me where Paul said saved by faith and obedient works in Ephesians 2:8,9. You basically make no distinction between faith and works but Paul does. Obedient works are the fruit of faith but not the means of our salvation.

Works cannot follow after one has faith.
The two are joined together so closely that they cannot be seperated without changing the meaning of words.

You still cannot figure out that faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. According to your errant theology, faith "is" baptism, faith "is" multiple acts of obedience, faith "is" works. What a mess!

Notice what the new testament writers called faith.
The very works they did is referred to as their faith.

The works were the evidence of their faith but not the very essence of their faith. Learn the difference.

Noah for example.
His work on the ark by Dan's religion is his works seperated from his faith.
But Biblically his obedient works are defined as his faith!!!!

There it is! That is exactly what Roman Catholics teach along with other works-salvationists. This erroneous thinking culminates in a works based false gospel. (Galatians 1:6-9)

Hebrews 11:6-7,
- but without faith it is impossible to please God for he that cometh to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him

- by  faith Noah being warned of God of things not seen as yet  moved with fear prepared and ark to the saving of his house by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith

The Bible teaches Noah's ark building which was obedient works was his faith!!!!
Noahs faith Worked by preparing the ark that did what?
Saved him and his household.
Did the Bible teach Nosh was saved by belief that was apart from works?
Did the the Bible teach Noah was first saved by belief with no works then after salvation Noah's faith produced fruit(works)?
No.

Noah had already found grace in the eyes of the Lord and was a just man who walked with God (Genesis 6:8-9) and a preacher of righteousness (2 Peter 2:5) before he built the ark. (Genesis 6:8,9) Noah's obedience was a demonstration of his faith but not the origin of it. Building the ark saved Noah and his family physically from drowning. (Hebrews 11:7)

The Bible teaches saving faith is faith that obeys Gods commandments.
Only obedient faith recieves Gods grace.

Faith results in obedience to God's commandments and this obedience is the demonstrative evidence that we know Him. (1 John 2:3) Yet we are still saved by faith at its origin and not by works produced afterwards. (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1-2; Ephesians 2:8,9) You just can't get the horse before the cart.

You cannot find anyone under the new testament gospel that was saved by a faith that did nothing but believe.All of them believed and then received Gods grace when they obeyed Jesus' gospel.

Believe unto righteousness Romans 10:9-10

We are saved by faith in Jesus at its origin (Ephesians 2:8,9) and obedience/works follow. (Ephesians 2:10) We have access by faith into grace (Romans 5:2) and not by faith + obedience/works. Believes unto righteousness/believes resulting in righteousness/believes and is justified.

 

[Titus]

Repentance is a change of mind which precedes faith in Christ (Acts 20:21) and is not a work for salvation

To show how poorly Dan explains scripture, I will explain Acts chapter 20.
Acts 20:20-21,
- and how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you but have shewed you and have taught you(Jews and gentile) publicly and from house to house

Paul has already taught this audience in chapter 20 Jesus and His gospel.
Read the next verse,
21
- testifying both to Jews and Greeks repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ

His audience had already been taught to believe in Jesus.
That is why in verse 21 he tells them to repent toward God.
They were already believers under the old law.
Or knew something' already about God but were not faithfull to God.
This is why Paul first tells them to repent of how they had been living.
Then he tells them to believe or have faith in Jesus.

We today never lived under or during the old testament law like these Jews and gentiles did.
So this doesn't apply to us today
We dont need to repent from how we were living under the old testament.
And now to believe in Jesus' new testament.

All people today are to believe in Jesus' gospel and then repent of our sins.
Dan denies repentance is a turning from sin to be saved.
That is why repentance Is a work.
One must turn away from sin and live righteously, godly to receive Grace.
Acts 17:30-31.