Jacob and Esau

The Rogue Tomato said:
And Paul is pulling from the OT when he quotes "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy". So, what? The point is God's sovereignty over election.
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This election concerns the nation he would make covenant with and use to carry his message into the world and from which the Christ would come
 
TibiasDad said:
The reason we say that is that vs 13 is taken from Mal 1:2-3 which is referring to the nations of Esau and Jacob, the Gentiles and Israel as a whole. This, is not referring directly to Jacob and Esau.

Moreover, the first reference is an example of election, God choosing the second born instead of the first against the primogeniture of the culture. The second reference is the continuation of the result in the larger scope of history, ie, “that his purpose in election might stand”.

The ultimate goal of this election is found in Rom 11 where the forsaking of Israel for a time ad bringing the gospel to the Gentiles is explained. This is clearly corporate in nature, not individual election.


Doug
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Amen
 
The Rogue Tomato said:
I've seen people claim that this section is not talking about the persons of Jacob and Esau, but the nations.

10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

("the children") is added to the text, but you can't avoid not yet being born nor having done any good or evil. He's talking about Jacob and Esau, not the nations. It can be further applied to the nations, but the context is clearly about the unborn Jacob and Esau. And again, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated” is clearly about the two individuals.

Why is this important? Because the point is "that the purpose of God according to election might stand", which says that God made the choice before they were even born.
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Romans 9
That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:

“See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.

The above is the same teaching in Romans 3 below :

Romans 3
But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction; 23 since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; 26 it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus. 27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On the principle of works? No, but on the principle of faith. 28 For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since God is one; and he will justify the circumcised on the ground of their faith and the uncircumcised through their faith.

And if we keep reading into chapter 9 the hardened Jew/reprobate is whom Paul prays for in their temporary hardening until all the gentiles are grafted into the branch. The potter/clay is God using the hardened Jews- His elect,chosen people ( destruction ) to bring in non elect vessels of glory ( gentiles) their salvation. The potter/clay is another analogy that contradicts calvinism, not support it. Once the glasses/lens are removed one can see the passages in their greater biblical context and harmonize them.

Conclusion : it’s nations not individuals from the context

Romans 9:30–32 (ESV) — 30 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone,

Romans 10:18–21 (ESV) — 18 But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for “Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.” 19 But I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says, “I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation; with a foolish nation I will make you angry.” 20 Then Isaiah is so bold as to say, “I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.” 21 But of Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.”

Romans 11:19–23 (ESV) — 19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.

hope this helps !!!
 
From @Seabass in another thread with some good biblical insight

Rom 11
God casts off the once elect Jews and graffs in the once unelect Gentiles. Even though the Gentiles are now of the elect, they are warned they could be cast off just as the Jew and not be of the elect..

"Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."

And because the Jews were cast off did not eman they could never be of the elect again

"And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again."

Rom 10-11
The Jews were cast off because they would not obey GOd, they woud not "submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God" .. "because of unbelief they were broken off" (Rom 11) for they would not believe, not confess, not obey the gospel (Rom 10:9-10,16).

Hence election is NOT something that was caprciously, unconditionally predertermined choice made by God for each individual that has been "set in stone" and unchangable. The Jews cast off and Gentiles grafted in was not some capricious uncodnitional chioce made by God apart feom men's choices but the Jews were cast off for their free will choice in rejecting Christ and His gospel and the Gentiles grafted in for choosing to accept Christ and His gospel (Acts 13:46).

Rom 9
Before tellig us in Rom 10 and 11 that the Jews were cast off due to their disobedience, Paul in Rom 9 first dispells some of the false notions the Jews had about salvation in Rom 9.

One of the main misconception of the Jews was they tho't their being direct descendants of Araham that meant automatic, unconditional election of them therefore they would be put in the Messiah's Kingdom when He came to earth simply based on their descendency. John refuted that idea in Matthew 3:9...
"And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham."
Paul refutes it also by showing How Esau (Edomites) were just as much the true decendants of Isaac and Abraham as were the Jews but they were not chosen to be the ones to whom the Messiah would enter the world. Hence Paul proves that God does not have to base His choices/promises solely on physical descent. That "They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." And ANYONE (Jew or Gentile) who chooses to become a Christian are the chidlren of promise (Gal 3:26-29).

This has nothing at all to do with the Calvinistic idea of election.

The Jews wrongly tho't salvation was only for them and if the Gentile had any hope to be saved the Gentile would have to become like the Jew (Gal 2:14; Acts 15:1-2) yet GOd can have mercy upon whom He will have mercy (Gentiles) and it is not up to the Jews to decide who will be saved nor the conditions required to saved.

Paul used OT examples and applied to them to the Jews. Paul used Pharoah's free will choice in disobeying God and how God used that free will choice in furthering His own will Rom 10:17. Likewise, God used the free will choice of the Jews disobeidence in rejecting and crucifying the Messiah to bring about His will in Christ dying on the cross for the sins of man. And God using man's free will choice to accomplish His own will does not obligate God to chose/elect/save those men.

Rom 9 is not a lesson on Calvinism but Paul's refutation of the Jew's false belief about God and salvation which led to their being cast off Rom 11
 
civic said:
Romans 9
That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:

“See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.

The above is the same teaching in Romans 3 below :

Romans 3
But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction; 23 since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; 26 it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus. 27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On the principle of works? No, but on the principle of faith. 28 For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since God is one; and he will justify the circumcised on the ground of their faith and the uncircumcised through their faith.

And if we keep reading into chapter 9 the hardened Jew/reprobate is whom Paul prays for in their temporary hardening until all the gentiles are grafted into the branch. The potter/clay is God using the hardened Jews- His elect,chosen people ( destruction ) to bring in non elect vessels of glory ( gentiles) their salvation. The potter/clay is another analogy that contradicts calvinism, not support it. Once the glasses/lens are removed one can see the passages in their greater biblical context and harmonize them.

Conclusion : it’s nations not individuals from the context

Romans 9:30–32 (ESV) — 30 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone,

Romans 10:18–21 (ESV) — 18 But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for “Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.” 19 But I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says, “I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation; with a foolish nation I will make you angry.” 20 Then Isaiah is so bold as to say, “I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.” 21 But of Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.”

Romans 11:19–23 (ESV) — 19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.

hope this helps !!!
Click to expand...
Yep
The potter/clay is God using the hardened Jews- His elect,chosen people ( destruction ) to bring in non elect vessels of glory ( gentiles) their salvation. The potter/clay is another analogy that contradicts calvinism, not support it. Once the glasses/lens are removed one can see the passages in their greater biblical context and harmonize them.

The elect chosen people are not finding salvation and the gentiles who were not the elect discussed earlier are
 
TomL said:
Yep
The potter/clay is God using the hardened Jews- His elect,chosen people ( destruction ) to bring in non elect vessels of glory ( gentiles) their salvation. The potter/clay is another analogy that contradicts calvinism, not support it. Once the glasses/lens are removed one can see the passages in their greater biblical context and harmonize them.

The elect chosen people are not finding salvation and the gentiles who were not the elect discussed earlier are
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Yes it’s the antithesis of Calvinism lol
 
The Rogue Tomato said:
("the children") is added to the text, but you can't avoid not yet being born nor having done any good or evil. He's talking about Jacob and Esau, not the nations.
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Firstly, we have the witness that they were trying to crush each other to pieces in the womb. That is the meaning of the word, ratsats in Gen 25:22,
ratsats: to crush
Original Word: רָצַץ
Definition: to crush, to crush to pieces, and in the reciprocal use, to crush each other to pieces... NOT to struggle wrestle nor jostle each other. Why do the commentators all change this word to deny their destructive intent? Because it does not conform to their belief that they are newly created as tabula rasa and is an eisegetic expression of their belief, not the actual meaning of the word.

The implication is that they were sinning on earth in the womb, a fact which Paul as a scholar of the Bible knew. So either he was lying about them not being sinners in the womb or he was referring to a time before they sinned in the womb, a time before they sinned at all but in a way to hide this idea of their pre-human life until it was called for.

Secondly, GOD told Rebecca that they were being sinfully murderous to try to become the first born even though GOD had a surprise for them.

They each wanted to be the first born but how did they know what that meant if they were just newly created? How did they know the Hebrew laws of primogeniture OR that they would be born into the Hebrew culture?

Why else except to protect their eisegetic doctrine do they just pretend GOD did not know what HE was saying here? Or that the writer of this passage of scripture did not notice this contradiction to the current favourite doctrine of an earthly creation of all people?
 
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TomL said:
Yep
The potter/clay is God using the hardened Jews- His elect,chosen people ( destruction ) to bring in non elect vessels of glory ( gentiles) their salvation. The potter/clay is another analogy that contradicts calvinism, not support it. Once the glasses/lens are removed one can see the passages in their greater biblical context and harmonize them.

The elect chosen people are not finding salvation and the gentiles who were not the elect discussed earlier are
Click to expand...
The point is that election is of God. God does the electing, whether it's a bloodline of people or people to be saved or choosing people for some other purpose.
 
TedT said:
Firstly, we have the witness that they were trying to crush each other to pieces in the womb. That is the meaning of the word, ratsats in Gen 25:22,
ratsats: to crush
Original Word: רָצַץ
Definition: to crush, to crush to pieces, and in the reciprocal use, to crush each other to pieces... NOT to struggle wrestle nor jostle each other. Why do the commentators all change this word to deny their destructive intent? Because it does not conform to their belief that they are newly created as tabula rasa and is an eisegetic expression of their belief, not the actual meaning of the word.
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Good. You are right to a degree.

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Rom 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

You're taking a good journey of discovery here brother.

TedT said:
The implication is that they were sinning on earth in the womb, a fact which Paul as a scholar of the Bible knew. So either he was lying about them not being sinners in the womb or he was referring to a time before they sinned in the womb, a time before they sinned at all but in a way to hide this idea of their pre-human life until it was called for.

Secondly, GOD told Rebecca that they were being sinfully murderous to try to become the first born even though GOD had a surprise for them.
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There is enmity between her seeds in the womb. Both flesh. Picture the Incarnation. Jacob represents Christ. Esau represents the first Adam. The second Adam (Jacob) partakes of the first Adam (Esau.

TedT said:
They each wanted to be the first born but how did they know what that meant if they were just newly created? How did they know the Hebrew laws of primogeniture OR that they would be born into the Hebrew culture?

Why else except to protect their eisegetic doctrine do they just pretend GOD did not know what HE was saying here? Or that the writer of this passage of scripture did not notice this contradiction to the current favourite doctrine of an earthly creation of all people?
Click to expand...

Adam was the beginning. Not the ending. God is long suffering. His plans (God's) required the experience of weakness for man and the experience of weakness for Divinity in Christ. A shared bond necessary in the very nature of God.

The process of creating man in His own image. Adam was never a finished product.

There is no Eternal life without this birthing process.
 
The Rogue Tomato said:
The point is that election is of God. God does the electing, whether it's a bloodline of people or people to be saved or choosing people for some other purpose.
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The point is Paul says the elect / chosen Jews ( my people) were not saved and God reached out to the nonelect gentile , heathen nations ( not my people) and saved them.

So much for being chosen, elect eh ?

Next
 
civic said:
The point is Paul says the elect / chosen Jews ( my people) were not saved and God reached out to the nonelect gentile , heathen nations ( not my people) and saved them.

So much for being chosen, elect eh ?

Next
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And gave this Gentiles the same warning he had given Israel....

Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Rom_11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
 
The Rogue Tomato said:
God does the electing, whether it's a bloodline of people or people to be saved or choosing people for some other purpose.
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No. God chose Christ and all other choices are subservient to that single choice.

You never start with Christ. NEVER.....

You've taken the place of Christ in your theology.

Did you fall in love with Christ or someone else's "image" of Him?
 
praise_yeshua said:
And gave this Gentiles the same warning he had given Israel....

Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Rom_11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
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Notice the cognitive dissonance
 
The Rogue Tomato said:
The point is that election is of God. God does the electing, whether it's a bloodline of people or people to be saved or choosing people for some other purpose.
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You have to define election. You assume it is to salvation but the fact Israel was elect, yet most failed to obtain righteous refutes that idea

That God elects his servants and his messengers does nothing at all to prove he unconditionally elects to salvation
 

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