The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
That's what I said. The point is that election is of God. God does the electing, whether it's a bloodline of people or people to be saved or choosing people for some other purpose.
Jacob and Esau
- Thread starter The Rogue Tomato
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The issue between us however is upon what grounds does he elect to salvation
Scripture is clear he gives salvation to those that believe not to men unconditionally
The Rogue Tomato
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So you're saying your faith saves you.
civic
Well-known member
Jesus said is read it in John 3:16-18.
Why don’t you believe Jesus ?
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
The Rogue Tomato
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I'm just pointing it out because @praise_yeshua said nobody here believe faith saves you. Clearly at least two people do.
I am saying God saves when one believes
civic
Well-known member
Yep
praise_yeshua
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You are wrong. They believe the power that saves comes from God.
civic
Well-known member
Exactly
The Rogue Tomato
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He said God gives salvation to those that believe, which means believing is the condition upon which they are saved. That means you are saved by your faith. No faith, no salvation.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
No salvation. No faith. No power no salvation.
Your really are ignoring the obvious. Stick around. Let's keep this back and forth going. It is really isn't working for you at all.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
John 3:16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.
The Greek translated "believe" is actually the continual act of believing, that is, "is believing". So it's not an offer to those willing to believe. It's a statement that those who are believing may not perish but have everlasting life.
This is echoed in 1 John 5:
5 Every one who is believing that Jesus is the Christ, of God he hath been begotten, and every one who is loving Him who did beget, doth love also him who is begotten of Him:
John is identifying those who have been born of God. Everyone who is believing is born of God.
Phil 1:6 having been confident of this very thing, that He who did begin in you a good work, will perform [it] till a day of Jesus Christ,
This is a parallel to Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith. It is God who begins a good work in us through faith.
The Greek translated "believe" is actually the continual act of believing, that is, "is believing". So it's not an offer to those willing to believe. It's a statement that those who are believing may not perish but have everlasting life.
This is echoed in 1 John 5:
5 Every one who is believing that Jesus is the Christ, of God he hath been begotten, and every one who is loving Him who did beget, doth love also him who is begotten of Him:
John is identifying those who have been born of God. Everyone who is believing is born of God.
Phil 1:6 having been confident of this very thing, that He who did begin in you a good work, will perform [it] till a day of Jesus Christ,
This is a parallel to Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith. It is God who begins a good work in us through faith.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
That's what I just posted. No salvation (no being born from above), no faith.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
No that is not what you said. I can read what you said. I quoted it.
There are multiple things required for salvation. Some have power and some do not have power. They are inert. Do you know what the word inert means? I gave you an example of what is not inert when you drive a car. The power comes from gasoline or other sources of power. You are purposely ignoring what I said because it exposes your deception. You only want to deal with your false assertion. You are oversimplifying to deceive others.
It is a very good thing your not a Doctor trying to tell a patient dying with cancer that it isn't your fault you missed the cancer because you couldn't see it.
How about looking a little deeper.
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The beginning of what? Life of all of mankind as sinners by GOD's decree??? I don't think so!!
But life on earth of the people of the kingdom of God who were already sinners, Matt 13:36-38? yes, that's about right!
OF COURSE! But not as sinners already!
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Well, that makes 3 people.
No sir! That makes all of the elect! The sheep (legitimate children of GOD) gone astray into sin! All of the people of the kingdom who chose to sin!! All of those sinners who Satan could not entice to fight against YHWH for him so he flung them down into the earth, Rev 12:4,
Berean Literal Bible
And his tail drags a third of the stars of heaven, and he cast them to the earth.
Well, it is not the faith that does the actual saving. It is God, but faith is the instrumental cause even according to Calvinists
John 3:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
The efficient (primary) cause of our eternal salvation the Scripture uniformly proclaims to be the mercy and free love of the heavenly Father towards us; the material cause to be Christ, with the obedience by which he purchased righteousness for us; and what can the formal or instrumental cause be but faith? John includes the three in one sentence when he says, “God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life,” (John 3:16).
That is not the word of an Arminian or a provisionist but of
John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion (Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 1997).
Similarly The Calvinist Theologian Berkouwer states
3. TO FAITH. Faith is the mediate or instrumental cause of sanctification as well as of justification. It does not merit sanctification any more than it does justification, but it unites us to Christ and keeps us in touch with Him as the Head of the new humanity, who is the source of the new life within us, and also of our progressive sanctification, through the operation of the Holy Spirit
L. Berkhof, Systematic Theology (Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans publishing co., 1938), 537.
There is not just a correlation between faith and justification, faith and regeneration , faith and salvation
There is a causal relationship even Calvinist theologians have affirmed
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Where did God decree such?
I wrote much more that you didn't respond to?
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