Israel is the Elect of God

[synergy]

I didn't dance around it. Correct understanding refuted your erroneous interpretation.
Thousands and thousands of Jews became born-again, and after their conversion to Christ was now able to obey the Law of Moses correctly and perfectly.
If God hasn't received Israel as His people, then how do you explain three thousand born again Jews on Pentecost and thousands more as the days passed?

There is no failure on the part of the people. It was the religious leaders that sought to kill Jesus, and they fell right into the plan of God for His Son. But these same religious leaders came to faith in Jesus as the years passed. Acts 6:7 records that a "great company" of priests came to faith. A "great company" sounds like a majority of 70 priests in the Sanhedrin. It could very well be two-thirds or even three-fourths of 70 became born-again. And this taking place puts a damper on Gentile belief that God judged Israel for killing their king. The majority of Jews lived in Gentile lands and didn't even know about Jesus. How can God judge them not knowing anything about what took place in Israel for three years during Jesus' ministry. It was a remnant that returned to rebuild their land thanks to Cyrus. But the majority of Jews remained in what was Assyria and in Babylon and in Gentile lands in-between. They knew nothing about Jesus. This was the reason why Jesus sent out the eleven disciples before He ascended and that was to herald the message from God to them that Messiah and King had come and left and will be back again, to let them know that God has kept His Promise, and the New Covenant era was upon them.

The Romans occupied Israel around 63 BC and, in that time, there were eventual pitched battles happening in AD 66 and AD 68 before the Jews were finally defeated. I don't see God's judgment upon Israel for the religious leaders assassinating Jesus. The fact that Jews were coming to their Lord and becoming born-again by thousands doesn't look like a judgment upon Israel for what happened to His Son.
And all these conversions to Israel's Messiah and King served them well for they were now able to obey every aspect of the Law of Moses completely and perfectly.

20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, [Saul], Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: Acts 21:19–20.

Even Saul, after he was converted, continued to observe and obey the Law of Moses.

24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. Acts 21:24.

And why not? They were deemed "Not Guilty!" by God and this was their justification. If thousands and thousands of Jews were becoming born-again and justified "Not Guilty!" by God the Father, then where does this teaching come from that Israel was under God's judgment for His Son. Does being declared "Not Guilty!" by God sound like judgment? No, it is not judgment but absolution, forgiveness, and restoration and fulfillment of the Jeremiah prophecy:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;
After those days, saith the LORD,
I will put my law in their inward parts,
And write it in their hearts;
And will be their God,
And they shall be my people.
Jer. 31:33.

Sounds like the Marriage Supper is still on!
Do you agree?

I'm talking about abrogated ordinances, Judaizers, and Paul's chastisement of them. You, on the other hand, are rambling about Jews in general and Romans. Why are you changing the topic? Try to stay on topic. Is that possible for you? Here are my questions again: Are you still holding onto abrogated ordinance such as Circumcision? Do you still practice Temple burnt offerings? You remind me of Peter's Judaizing phase when he came under severe chastising by Paul for doing so. That's what Judaizers deserve, to come under the chastisement of your favorite Apostle of all times Paul.

BTW, I counted 6 times on how you made use of or quoted the word "but" to promote your points but you did not offer the same consideration to the word "but" in Matt 5:39. Your "Sainthood" is obvious to all. Congratulations.

 

[David Koberstein]

Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. The word which God sent to the [l]children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ—He is Lord of all— that word you know, which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee after the baptism which John preached: how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. And we are witnesses of all things which He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem, whom [m]they killed by hanging on a tree. Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly, not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before by God, even to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead.
To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.”

While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.
And those of the circumcision(Jews) who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter,
because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.

i SEE two Noachide laws in this passage as follows:
1.) "in every nation whoever fears Him"
2.) "works righteousness is accepted by Him"

What is the 3rd that you see???

The Seven Noachide Laws, or Sheva Mitzvos Bnei Noach, are a set of laws given to humanity:

• Do not deny God: Also known as not worshipping idols
  
  
  
• Do not murder
  
  
  
• Do not steal
  
  
  
• Do not engage in sexual immorality: This includes adultery, incest, and homosexual relationships
  
  
  
• Do not blaspheme
  
  
  
• Do not eat of a live animal
  
  The 3 laws in Act 15:

Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. The word which God sent to the [l]children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ—He is Lord of all— that word you know, which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee after the baptism which John preached: how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. And we are witnesses of all things which He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem, whom [m]they killed by hanging on a tree. Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly, not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before by God, even to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead.
To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.”

While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.
And those of the circumcision(Jews) who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter,
because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.

i SEE two Noachide laws in this passage as follows:
1.) "in every nation whoever fears Him"
2.) "works righteousness is accepted by Him"

What is the 3rd that you see???

Then Peter opened his mouth and said: “In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. The word which God sent to the [l]children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ—He is Lord of all— that word you know, which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee after the baptism which John preached: how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. And we are witnesses of all things which He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem, whom [m]they killed by hanging on a tree. Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly, not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before by God, even to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead.
To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins.”

While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.
And those of the circumcision(Jews) who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter,
because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.

i SEE two Noachide laws in this passage as follows:
1.) "in every nation whoever fears Him"
2.) "works righteousness is accepted by Him"

What is the 3rd that you see???

The Seven Noachide Laws, or Sheva Mitzvos Bnei Noach, are a set of laws given to humanity:

• Do not deny God: Also known as not worshipping idols
  
  
  
• Do not murder
  
  
  
• Do not steal
  
  
  
• Do not engage in sexual immorality: This includes adultery, incest, and homosexual relationships
  
  
  
• Do not blaspheme
  
  
  
• Do not eat of a live animal
  
  The 3 Noachide laws in Acts 15:20 are Idols, fornication, and do not eat of a live animal.

Shalom

 

[DavidTree]

The Seven Noachide Laws, or Sheva Mitzvos Bnei Noach, are a set of laws given to humanity:

• Do not deny God: Also known as not worshipping idols
  
  
  
• Do not murder
  
  
  
• Do not steal
  
  
  
• Do not engage in sexual immorality: This includes adultery, incest, and homosexual relationships
  
  
  
• Do not blaspheme
  
  
  
• Do not eat of a live animal
  
  The 3 laws in Act 15:

The Seven Noachide Laws, or Sheva Mitzvos Bnei Noach, are a set of laws given to humanity:

• Do not deny God: Also known as not worshipping idols
  
  
  
• Do not murder
  
  
  
• Do not steal
  
  
  
• Do not engage in sexual immorality: This includes adultery, incest, and homosexual relationships
  
  
  
• Do not blaspheme
  
  
  
• Do not eat of a live animal
  
  The 3 Noachide laws in Acts 15:20 are Idols, fornication, and do not eat of a live animal.

Shalom

Are we to follow these laws today?

Are they the laws God established for Gentiles?

 

[jeremiah1five]

I'm talking about abrogated ordinances, Judaizers, and Paul's chastisement of them. You, on the other hand, are rambling about Jews in general and Romans. Why are you changing the topic? Try to stay on topic. Is that possible for you? Here are my questions again: Are you still holding onto abrogated ordinance such as Circumcision? Do you still practice Temple burnt offerings? You remind me of Peter's Judaizing phase when he came under severe chastising by Paul for doing so. That's what Judaizers deserve, to come under the chastisement of your favorite Apostle of all times Paul.

BTW, I counted 6 times on how you made use of or quoted the word "but" to promote your points but you did not offer the same consideration to the word "but" in Matt 5:39. Your "Sainthood" is obvious to all. Congratulations.

Nothing in the Law was abrogated except the animal sacrifices. But that is the position of Jewiash Christians like Saul who understand the sacrifice Jesus Christ made in dying for the children of Israel in the place of the animal sacrifice under the Mosaic system. You are interpreting the Mosaic Law like a Judaizer and fail to understand that the letter of the Law has been replaced by the spirit of the Law, exactly the things Jesus taught to prepare His people for the offering of Himself as sacrifice in which being born again meant that natural Olive tree Israel became spiritual Olive tree Israel. Under the Abraham covenant circumcision was commanded by God. To date, He's not abrogated it. It merely took on a different form and became circumcision of the heart.
The Law is spiritual. Thus, only a spiritual person is now deemed by God to have fulfilled every ordinance of the Law.
With salvation comes justification and God declaring the born again person "NOT GUILTY!" of violating the Law of God.
But, but, but. So what. It's a is a coordinating conjunction. This means it connects two independent clauses that express contrasting ideas.
Example: I love pizza, but I hate pineapple on it.
However, "but" can also function as:

• A preposition: Everyone came but him.
• An adverb: I tried but failed.
• A noun: There are no buts about it.

So, to answer you...there are no buts about it.

 

[synergy]

Nothing in the Law was abrogated except the animal sacrifices. But that is the position of Jewiash Christians like Saul who understand the sacrifice Jesus Christ made in dying for the children of Israel in the place of the animal sacrifice under the Mosaic system. You are interpreting the Mosaic Law like a Judaizer and fail to understand that the letter of the Law has been replaced by the spirit of the Law, exactly the things Jesus taught to prepare His people for the offering of Himself as sacrifice in which being born again meant that natural Olive tree Israel became spiritual Olive tree Israel. Under the Abraham covenant circumcision was commanded by God. To date, He's not abrogated it. It merely took on a different form and became circumcision of the heart.
The Law is spiritual. Thus, only a spiritual person is now deemed by God to have fulfilled every ordinance of the Law.
With salvation comes justification and God declaring the born again person "NOT GUILTY!" of violating the Law of God.
But, but, but. So what. It's a is a coordinating conjunction. This means it connects two independent clauses that express contrasting ideas.
Example: I love pizza, but I hate pineapple on it.
However, "but" can also function as:

• A preposition: Everyone came but him.
• An adverb: I tried but failed.
• A noun: There are no buts about it.

So, to answer you...there are no buts about it.

Permit me to introduce you to Acts 15 where the Jerusalem Council abrogated the requirement of circumcision.

Acts 15, verses 1 and 5 records the following: “But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, ‘Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.’ . . . It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the Law of Moses.” Some Judaizers (like you) were teaching that Gentiles had to observe all Jewish customs. The apostles and church leaders held the first Christian council to settle the issue. In verses 7-11, the apostle Peter spoke of his ministry with the Gentiles, as recorded in Acts chapter 10. Peter focused on the fact that the Holy Spirit was given to uncircumcised Gentiles in precisely the same manner the Holy Spirit was given to the apostles and Jewish believers on the day of Pentecost. This led Peter to the conclusion that there should be no “placing a yoke on the neck of the [Gentile] disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear” (Acts 15:10). Thus circumcision was abrogated.

Thus, you're the one who continues to be the Judaizer by disregarding multiple OT-abrogating verses like Acts 15. And just like a Judaizer you are, you continue to fail to understand that the letter of the Law has been replaced by the Spirit of the Law.

 

[Complete]

Subject Heading:- 'Israel is the Elect of God'

If God hasn't received Israel as His people, then how do you explain three thousand born again Jews on Pentecost and thousands more as the days passed?​

Hello @jeremiah1five,

'Esaias also crieth concerning Israel,
Though the number of the children of Israel
be as the sand of the sea,
a remnant shall be saved:'
(Rom 9:27)

'Even so then at this present time also
there is a remnant according to the election of grace.'
(Rom 11:5)

There is no failure on the part of the people. It was the religious leaders that sought to kill Jesus, and they fell right into the plan of God for His Son. But these same religious leaders came to faith in Jesus as the years passed. Acts 6:7 records that a "great company" of priests came to faith. A "great company" sounds like a majority of 70 priests in the Sanhedrin. It could very well be two-thirds or even three-fourths of 70 became born-again. And this taking place puts a damper on Gentile belief that God judged Israel for killing their king. The majority of Jews lived in Gentile lands and didn't even know about Jesus. How can God judge them not knowing anything about what took place in Israel for three years during Jesus' ministry. It was a remnant that returned to rebuild their land thanks to Cyrus. But the majority of Jews remained in what was Assyria and in Babylon and in Gentile lands in-between. They knew nothing about Jesus. This was the reason why Jesus sent out the eleven disciples before He ascended and that was to herald the message from God to them that Messiah and King had come and left and will be back again, to let them know that God has kept His Promise, and the New Covenant era was upon them.​

​

The Romans occupied Israel around 63 BC and, in that time, there were eventual pitched battles happening in AD 66 and AD 68 before the Jews were finally defeated. I don't see God's judgment upon Israel for the religious leaders assassinating Jesus. The fact that Jews were coming to their Lord and becoming born-again by thousands doesn't look like a judgment upon Israel for what happened to His Son.​

And all these conversions to Israel's Messiah and King served them well for they were now able to obey every aspect of the Law of Moses completely and perfectly.​

​

20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, [Saul], Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: Acts 21:19–20.​

​

Even Saul, after he was converted, continued to observe and obey the Law of Moses.​

24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. Acts 21:24.​

​

And why not? They were deemed "Not Guilty!" by God and this was their justification. If thousands and thousands of Jews were becoming born-again and justified "Not Guilty!" by God the Father, then where does this teaching come from that Israel was under God's judgment for His Son. Does being declared "Not Guilty!" by God sound like judgment? No, it is not judgment but absolution, forgiveness, and restoration and fulfillment of the Jeremiah prophecy:​

​

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;​

After those days, saith the LORD,​

I will put my law in their inward parts,​

And write it in their hearts;​

And will be their God,​

And they shall be my people.​

Jer. 31:33.​

​

Sounds like the Marriage Supper is still on!​

Do you agree?​

'For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery,
lest ye should be wise in your own conceits;
that blindness in part is happened to Israel,
until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
And so all Israel shall be saved:
as it is written,
There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer,
and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
For this is My covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes:
but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
For as ye in times past have not believed God,
yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Even so have these also now not believed,
that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief,
that He might have mercy upon all.
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
how unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out!
For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been His counsellor?
Or who hath first given to Him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things:
to Whom be glory for ever.
Amen.'
(Rom 11:25-36)

Praise God! For His mercy and His grace.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[synergy]

Hello @jeremiah1five,

'Esaias also crieth concerning Israel,
Though the number of the children of Israel
be as the sand of the sea,
a remnant shall be saved:'
(Rom 9:27)

'Even so then at this present time also
there is a remnant according to the election of grace.'
(Rom 11:5)



'For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery,
lest ye should be wise in your own conceits;
that blindness in part is happened to Israel,
until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
And so all Israel shall be saved:
as it is written,
There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer,
and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
For this is My covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes:
but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
For as ye in times past have not believed God,
yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Even so have these also now not believed,
that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief,
that He might have mercy upon all.
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
how unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out!
For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been His counsellor?
Or who hath first given to Him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things:
to Whom be glory for ever.
Amen.'
(Rom 11:25-36)

Praise God! For His mercy and His grace.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Thanks for rectifying Jer15's comments, on his attempt to run away from the abrogation discussion I'm having with him. Well done. I hope he comes back to discussing the abrogation topic.

 

[Complete]

Hello @jeremiah1five,

To the members of the Church which is the Body of Christ, of which Christ is the Head, The following was written to those among it's members who were Gentile by birth, but born from above through faith in the all-sufficient sacrifice of Christ:-

'Wherefore remember,
.. that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh,
.... who are called Uncircumcision
...... by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
........ That at that time ye were without Christ,
.......... being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel,
............ and strangers from the covenants of promise,
.............. having no hope, and without God in the world:
But now in Christ Jesus
.. ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
.... For He is our peace, Who hath made both one,
...... and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
........ Having abolished in His flesh the enmity,
.......... even the law of commandments contained in ordinances;
............ for to make in Himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
.............. And that He might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross,
................ having slain the enmity thereby:
And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
.. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
.... Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners,
...... but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
........ And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets,
.......... Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone;
............ In Whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
.............. In Whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.'
(Ephesians 2:11-22)

* How wonderful this is, isn't it? This is the work of God, in Christ Jesus our risen and glorified, Saviour, Lord and Head.
He has made both Jew and Gentile believers into One joint Body in Christ their Head. That is, 'One New Man'.

* This took place after Acts 28, and is revealed in the letters written by Paul, by Divine revelation, while in prison, to the Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon, on the foundation of Romans 5:12- 8:39.

Praise God!

 

[jeremiah1five]

Permit me to introduce you to Acts 15 where the Jerusalem Council abrogated the requirement of circumcision.

Acts 15, verses 1 and 5 records the following: “But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, ‘Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.’ . . . It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the Law of Moses.”

If you understood the context of those passages, it had to do with Gentile God-Fearers, not to Jews. Jews that became Jewish Christians continued to observe and obey God's Law, as a matter of fact, they were zealous of God's Law now that through Christ God has declared them justified ("Not Guilty!") of violating the Law as justification is a one-time judicial act of God towards the believer.

Some Judaizers (like you) were teaching that Gentiles had to observe all Jewish customs.

I never said, "Gentiles had to observe all Jewish customs." You misrepresent my words which show your lack of comprehension. Any so called "Gentile" in the New Covenant writings who was born again needed to be identified as Samaritan-type half-Jew/half-Gentile and as being half-Jew are still Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise. Scripture cannot be broken and so any "Gentile" who is in the bible and called such can only be part-Jew in ancestry as the Abraham covenant is between God and Abraham and Abraham's seed. God made no covenant with non-Hebrew Gentiles. To claim non-Hebrew Gentiles are born again is to break Scripture and violate what has been written in Genesis 17. Non-Hebrew Gentiles are NOT the seed of Abraham and as such are outside all Hebrew covenants with God.

The apostles and church leaders held the first Christian council to settle the issue. In verses 7-11, the apostle Peter spoke of his ministry with the Gentiles, as recorded in Acts chapter 10. Peter focused on the fact that the Holy Spirit was given to uncircumcised Gentiles in precisely the same manner the Holy Spirit was given to the apostles and Jewish believers on the day of Pentecost.

Cornelius was a God-Fearer, a devout obedient, observer of the Torah and uncircumcised. Since the Abraham covenant is between God, Abraham, and Abraham's seed, Cornelius would have been of mixed heritage for God Himself would not break Scripture and save a non-Hebrew Gentile. But breaking Scripture is OK with you because you have no integrity and are not honest with the Word of God. There is NOTHING in 37 "books" of the Hebrew Scripture of God making any covenant with non-Hebrew Gentiles. NONE. So, whatever is been recorded in the New Covenant writings where "Gentiles" are mentioned would have to be of mixed heritage and have at least one Hebrew parent in their ancestry because God has promises to and for Abraham's seed and NOT non-Hebrews. Being of mixed heritage is explained through the conquest and exile of the twelve tribes first by Assyria (northern kingdom) and later by Babylon (southern kingdom). And depending on the Hebrew parent a mixed heritage offspring would have Abraham's seed in their DNA and since God is a Promise Keeper and the person's name is in the book of life of the lamb slain, then that half-Jew/half-Gentile will become saved. God-Fearers and proselytes were allies with Israel and observers of God's Torah and committed to raising their families under the Law.

This led Peter to the conclusion that there should be no “placing a yoke on the neck of the [Gentile] disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear” (Acts 15:10). Thus circumcision was abrogated.

That's your flawed interpretation. When a Jew became born again, they continued in the Law of Moses. They were already circumcised at eight months old according to the Law. At the appointed time they became born again by THEIR Holy Spirit of Promise as Promised by God to the Hebrew people. Even Saul continued his obedience to the Law of Moses as a converted Jew and Jewish Christian. There is NOTHING in all of the bible God abrogating circumcision for a Jewish man or a Jewish baby of eight months. The Law of Moses was committed to the Jews through Abraham and never have I read God telling His covenant people they don't have to circumcise their male children anymore.

20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: Acts 21:20.

And of Saul:
24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. Acts 21:24.

Saul was recognized by the religious order of being a Jewish Christian and staying obedient and faithful to God. Are you going to tell me the thousands and thousands of Jews who were born again and remained faithful to God's Law; and Saul, who was faithful to God's Law - even the Nazarene vows in verse 24 - that they were ALL WRONG?
No thanks. I'll remain faithful to Scripture and receive these verses as true and the Holy Spirit's purpose is to show all these Constantinian Gentiles who have unmoored true, biblical Christianity from its Hebrew roots they are wrong because Scripture says otherwise.

Thus, you're the one who continues to be the Judaizer by disregarding multiple OT-abrogating verses like Acts 15. And just like a Judaizer you are, you continue to fail to understand that the letter of the Law has been replaced by the Spirit of the Law.

BUT IT IS STILL THE LAW! (thank you very much.)

The Law is spiritual, which is why men of flesh and unanointed failed to obey it. But Jesus Christ came, fulfilled the Law - nailed it to His cross - and when He resurrected the Law which is spiritual and eternal and cannot die, resurrected along with Jesus and now the Holy Spirit who is the Law Personified and the fulfillment of God putting His Law (of Moses) in the inward parts of the House of Israel and the House of Judah just as the New Covenant prophecy declares.

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;
After those days, saith the LORD,
I will put my law in their inward parts,
And write it in their hearts;
And will be their God,
And they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying,
Know the LORD:
For they shall all know me,
From the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD:
For I will forgive their iniquity,
And I will remember their sin no more.
Jer. 31:33–34.

The Presence of the Holy Spirit of Promise who was Promised to Israel - NOT to non-Hebrew Gentiles - is evidence of God's Law put in the inward parts of every Jew who is born again in Christ. ALL THREE HEBREW COVENANTS -Abraham, Mosaic, and New - are covenants between God, Abraham, and Abraham's seed, and NOT with any non-Hebrew Gentiles. So, when you read "gentile" in the bible and that Gentile is born again, then that Gentile is half, quarter, eighth, a Jew and STILL Abraham's seed and heirs according to the Promise (God gave to Abraham.)
This IS the Word of God.

Scripture cannot be broken. There is no non-Hebrew covenant anywhere in the bible. You're infected by Constantinian Gentile lies.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Thanks for rectifying Jer15's comments, on his attempt to run away from the abrogation discussion I'm having with him. Well done. I hope he comes back to discussing the abrogation topic.

And how does she "rectify" my comments?

 

[jeremiah1five]

Hello @jeremiah1five,

To the members of the Church which is the Body of Christ, of which Christ is the Head, The following was written to those among it's members who were Gentile by birth, but born from above through faith in the all-sufficient sacrifice of Christ:-

'Wherefore remember,
.. that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh,
.... who are called Uncircumcision
...... by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
........ That at that time ye were without Christ,
.......... being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel,
............ and strangers from the covenants of promise,
.............. having no hope, and without God in the world:
But now in Christ Jesus
.. ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
.... For He is our peace, Who hath made both one,
...... and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
........ Having abolished in His flesh the enmity,
.......... even the law of commandments contained in ordinances;
............ for to make in Himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
.............. And that He might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross,
................ having slain the enmity thereby:
And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
.. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
.... Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners,
...... but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
........ And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets,
.......... Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone;
............ In Whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
.............. In Whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.'
(Ephesians 2:11-22)

* How wonderful this is, isn't it? This is the work of God, in Christ Jesus our risen and glorified, Saviour, Lord and Head.
He has made both Jew and Gentile believers into One joint Body in Christ their Head. That is, 'One New Man'.

* This took place after Acts 28, and is revealed in the letters written by Paul, by Divine revelation, while in prison, to the Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon, on the foundation of Romans 5:12- 8:39.

Praise God!

QUESTION: Can you give me a Scripture that reveals God making a covenant with non-Hebrew Gentiles?

 

[Complete]

QUESTION: Can you give me a Scripture that reveals God making a covenant with non-Hebrew Gentiles?

'Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,
according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,'
(2Ti 1:1)

Hello @jeremiah1five,

The old covenant was made with Israel, and the new covenant will also be made with Israel (Jer. 31:31-34 & Heb. 8:8) . The Church which is the Body of Christ has no covenant made with it's members: However, we do have, 'the promise of life, which is in Christ Jesus': For we were chosen in Him, before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4). He is our Head: Our promise is in Him; where it is safe, and assured of fulfilment.

Praise God!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[DavidTree]

Permit me to introduce you to Acts 15 where the Jerusalem Council abrogated the requirement of circumcision.

Acts 15, verses 1 and 5 records the following: “But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, ‘Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.’ . . . It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the Law of Moses.” Some Judaizers (like you) were teaching that Gentiles had to observe all Jewish customs. The apostles and church leaders held the first Christian council to settle the issue. In verses 7-11, the apostle Peter spoke of his ministry with the Gentiles, as recorded in Acts chapter 10. Peter focused on the fact that the Holy Spirit was given to uncircumcised Gentiles in precisely the same manner the Holy Spirit was given to the apostles and Jewish believers on the day of Pentecost. This led Peter to the conclusion that there should be no “placing a yoke on the neck of the [Gentile] disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear” (Acts 15:10). Thus circumcision was abrogated.

Thus, you're the one who continues to be the Judaizer by disregarding multiple OT-abrogating verses like Acts 15. And just like a Judaizer you are, you continue to fail to understand that the letter of the Law has been replaced by the Spirit of the Law.

THOU SHALL NOT “place a yoke on the neck of the [Gentile] disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear” (Acts 15:10).

When in doubt
READ it OUT
and you will not be confused
what the law was about

 

[synergy]

If you understood the context of those passages, it had to do with Gentile God-Fearers, not to Jews. Jews that became Jewish Christians continued to observe and obey God's Law, as a matter of fact, they were zealous of God's Law now that through Christ God has declared them justified ("Not Guilty!") of violating the Law as justification is a one-time judicial act of God towards the believer.

I never said, "Gentiles had to observe all Jewish customs." You misrepresent my words which show your lack of comprehension. Any so called "Gentile" in the New Covenant writings who was born again needed to be identified as Samaritan-type half-Jew/half-Gentile and as being half-Jew are still Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise. Scripture cannot be broken and so any "Gentile" who is in the bible and called such can only be part-Jew in ancestry as the Abraham covenant is between God and Abraham and Abraham's seed. God made no covenant with non-Hebrew Gentiles. To claim non-Hebrew Gentiles are born again is to break Scripture and violate what has been written in Genesis 17. Non-Hebrew Gentiles are NOT the seed of Abraham and as such are outside all Hebrew covenants with God.

Cornelius was a God-Fearer, a devout obedient, observer of the Torah and uncircumcised. Since the Abraham covenant is between God, Abraham, and Abraham's seed, Cornelius would have been of mixed heritage for God Himself would not break Scripture and save a non-Hebrew Gentile. But breaking Scripture is OK with you because you have no integrity and are not honest with the Word of God. There is NOTHING in 37 "books" of the Hebrew Scripture of God making any covenant with non-Hebrew Gentiles. NONE. So, whatever is been recorded in the New Covenant writings where "Gentiles" are mentioned would have to be of mixed heritage and have at least one Hebrew parent in their ancestry because God has promises to and for Abraham's seed and NOT non-Hebrews. Being of mixed heritage is explained through the conquest and exile of the twelve tribes first by Assyria (northern kingdom) and later by Babylon (southern kingdom). And depending on the Hebrew parent a mixed heritage offspring would have Abraham's seed in their DNA and since God is a Promise Keeper and the person's name is in the book of life of the lamb slain, then that half-Jew/half-Gentile will become saved. God-Fearers and proselytes were allies with Israel and observers of God's Torah and committed to raising their families under the Law.


That's your flawed interpretation. When a Jew became born again, they continued in the Law of Moses. They were already circumcised at eight months old according to the Law. At the appointed time they became born again by THEIR Holy Spirit of Promise as Promised by God to the Hebrew people. Even Saul continued his obedience to the Law of Moses as a converted Jew and Jewish Christian. There is NOTHING in all of the bible God abrogating circumcision for a Jewish man or a Jewish baby of eight months. The Law of Moses was committed to the Jews through Abraham and never have I read God telling His covenant people they don't have to circumcise their male children anymore.

20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: Acts 21:20.

And of Saul:
24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. Acts 21:24.

Saul was recognized by the religious order of being a Jewish Christian and staying obedient and faithful to God. Are you going to tell me the thousands and thousands of Jews who were born again and remained faithful to God's Law; and Saul, who was faithful to God's Law - even the Nazarene vows in verse 24 - that they were ALL WRONG?
No thanks. I'll remain faithful to Scripture and receive these verses as true and the Holy Spirit's purpose is to show all these Constantinian Gentiles who have unmoored true, biblical Christianity from its Hebrew roots they are wrong because Scripture says otherwise.

BUT IT IS STILL THE LAW! (thank you very much.)

The Law is spiritual, which is why men of flesh and unanointed failed to obey it. But Jesus Christ came, fulfilled the Law - nailed it to His cross - and when He resurrected the Law which is spiritual and eternal and cannot die, resurrected along with Jesus and now the Holy Spirit who is the Law Personified and the fulfillment of God putting His Law (of Moses) in the inward parts of the House of Israel and the House of Judah just as the New Covenant prophecy declares.

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;
After those days, saith the LORD,
I will put my law in their inward parts,
And write it in their hearts;
And will be their God,
And they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying,
Know the LORD:
For they shall all know me,
From the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD:
For I will forgive their iniquity,
And I will remember their sin no more.
Jer. 31:33–34.

The Presence of the Holy Spirit of Promise who was Promised to Israel - NOT to non-Hebrew Gentiles - is evidence of God's Law put in the inward parts of every Jew who is born again in Christ. ALL THREE HEBREW COVENANTS -Abraham, Mosaic, and New - are covenants between God, Abraham, and Abraham's seed, and NOT with any non-Hebrew Gentiles. So, when you read "gentile" in the bible and that Gentile is born again, then that Gentile is half, quarter, eighth, a Jew and STILL Abraham's seed and heirs according to the Promise (God gave to Abraham.)
This IS the Word of God.

Scripture cannot be broken. There is no non-Hebrew covenant anywhere in the bible. You're infected by Constantinian Gentile lies.

The Jerusalem Council stood for the entire Christian Church. The circumcision requirement was thus abrogated. You were still free to practice it or not. There was no one stopping you from removing your entire member, if you so desired.

Your attempt to spit on the Bible verses that declare that there is no division of Jew or Greek in Christ's Church is duly noted - as is your continued delirium for abrogated Ethnic Cleansing.

 

[DavidTree]

'Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,
according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,'
(2Ti 1:1)

Hello @jeremiah1five,

The old covenant was made with Israel, and the new covenant will also be made with Israel (Jer. 31:31-34 & Heb. 8:8) . The Church which is the Body of Christ has no covenant made with it's members: However, we do have, 'the promise of life, which is in Christ Jesus': For we were chosen in Him, before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4). He is our Head: Our promise is in Him; where it is safe, and assured of fulfilment.

Praise God!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

The Church which is the Body of Christ has no covenant made with it's members:

Would you please elaborate on this.

 

[Complete]

'Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,
according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,'
(2Ti 1:1)

Hello @jeremiah1five,

The old covenant was made with Israel, and the new covenant will also be made with Israel (Jer. 31:31-34 & Heb. 8:8) . The Church which is the Body of Christ has no covenant made with it's members: However, we do have, 'the promise of life, which is in Christ Jesus': For we were chosen in Him, before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4). He is our Head: Our promise is in Him; where it is safe, and assured of fulfilment.

Praise God!

Would you please elaborate on this.

'I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you
that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
With all lowliness and meekness,
with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
(Eph 4:1-7)

Hello @David Tree,

You have asked me to elaborate on the words (quote):- 'The Church which is the Body of Christ has no covenant made with it's members.'

The original covenant made by God with the nation of Israel at Sinai, was made through a Mediator, which was Moses, who read the terms of the covenant to the children of Israel which they agreed to keep. The new covenant also has a Mediator in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ, whose blood is the blood of the new covenant: This covenant is in abeyance at this time, for Israel as a nation has yet to come to repentance. (Jeremiah 31:31, and Hebrews 8-13 ). When it does, as described in Zechariah 12:10, the new covenant will once more be made with Israel.

The Church which is the body of Christ and it's administration was made known to Paul by Divine revelation (Eph. 3:3), after Acts 28, and made known by word of mouth and letter, by him as 'The Lord's Prisoner', to the Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon: It's foundation being the truth of Romans 5:12 - 8:39. No covenant is made with it's membership, the only promise made is the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus (Titus 1:2; 3:7; & 2Tim. 1:1, 2Tim. 1:9) . It does have however all spiritual blessings in Christ Jesus, which will be enjoyed in heavenly places in Him, as God's own inheritance in that realm: As redeemed Israel will be on the new earth, with it's blessings of basket and store.

All it's membership are complete in Christ, Holy and without blame in Christ before God, and accepted in the Beloved, having been adopted as Son's of God through Jesus Christ to the glory of God the Father, so that we know Him as the God and father of the Lord Jesus Christ, and our Father therefore 'in' Him. and worship Him in Spirit and in truth. May He be blessed!

We have no place of worship and no creed, but we seek to keep the unity of the Spirit which is already made of Ephesians 4, to the glory of God, the Father, and our Saviour, Lord and Head, Christ Jesus.

Forgive me, there is much more that could be said, but I am not in a position to do more at this time. A prayerful reading of the epistles mentioned, in the light of the prayers of chapter 1:17- 23, and 3:14-21, will supply all that you need,

'And hath put all things under His feet,
and gave Him to be the head
over all things to the church,
Which is His body,
the fulness of Him that filleth all in all.'
(Eph 1:22-23)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[DavidTree]

'I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you
that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
With all lowliness and meekness,
with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
(Eph 4:1-7)

Hello @David Tree,

You have asked me to elaborate on the words (quote):- 'The Church which is the Body of Christ has no covenant made with it's members.'
The original covenant made by God with the nation of Israel at Sinai, was made through a Mediator, which was Moses, who read the terms of the covenant to the children of Israel which they agreed to keep. The new covenant also has a Mediator in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ, whose blood was the blood of the covenant: This covenant is in abeyance at this time, for Israel as a nation has yet to come to repentance. (Jeremiah 31:31, and Hebrews 8-13 ). When it does, as described in Zechariah 12:10, the new covenant will once more be made with Israel.

The Church which is the body of Christ and it's administration was made known to Paul by Divine revelation (Eph. 3:3), after Acts 28, and made known by word of mouth and letter, by him as 'The Lord's Prisoner', to the Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon. No covenant is made with it's membership, the only promise made is the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus (Titus 1:2; 3:7; & 2Tim. 1:1, 2Tim. 1:9) . It does have however all spiritual blessings in Christ Jesus, which will be enjoyed in heavenly places in Him, as God's own inheritance in that realm: As redeemed Israel will be on the new earth, with it's blessings of basket and store.

All it's membership are complete in Christ, Holy and without blame in Christ before God, and accepted in the Beloved, having been adopted as Son's of God through Jesus Christ to the glory of God the Father, so that we know Him as the God and father of the Lord Jesus Christ, and our Father therefore 'in' Him. and worship Him in Spirit and in truth.

We have no place of worship and no creed, but we seek to keep the unity of the Spirit which is already made of Ephesians 4, to the glory of God, the Father, and our Saviour, Lord and Head, Christ Jesus.

Forgive me, there is much more that could be said, but I am not in a position to do more at this time.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

OK my Sister in our Lord Jesus Christ.

Let us, together in Christ, fine tune a couple of statements so that we are in complete agreement with the Word of God.

This (New) covenant is in abeyance at this time, for Israel as a nation has yet to come to repentance

Is the New Covenant in 'abeyance' or is the earthbound nation Israel in 'abeyance'?

Please validate with scripture that strictly answers the question that you believe fits here = Thank You @Complete

CLUE = your Berean name(Complete)
and thank you for the time you take to elaborate with @jeremiah1five

 

[Complete]

OK my Sister in our Lord Jesus Christ.

Let us, together in Christ, fine tune a couple of statements so that we are in complete agreement with the Word of God.


Is the New Covenant in 'abeyance' or is the earthbound nation Israel in 'abeyance'?

Please validate with scripture that strictly answers the question that you believe fits here = Thank You @Complete

CLUE = your Berean name(Complete)
and thank you for the time you take to elaborate with @jeremiah1five

Forgive me, @ DavidTree, for I have altered my post a little.

Thank you for your kindness.
I have to leave the forum at the moment
God willing I shall be back soon to respond.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[DavidTree]

Forgive me, @ DavidTree, for I have altered my post a little.

Thank you for your kindness.
I have to leave the forum at the moment
God willing I shall be back soon to respond.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

No rush and have a Great Day in the LORD, Today as you hear His Voice!

 

[Complete]

'I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you ​

that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,​

With all lowliness and meekness, ​

with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;​

Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.​

There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;​

One Lord, one faith, one baptism,​

One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.​

But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.​

(Eph 4:1-7)​

​

Hello @David Tree,​

​

You have asked me to elaborate on the words (quote):- 'The Church which is the Body of Christ has no covenant made with it's members.'​

​

The original covenant made by God with the nation of Israel at Sinai, was made through a Mediator, which was Moses, who read the terms of the covenant to the children of Israel which they agreed to keep. The new covenant also has a Mediator in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ, whose blood is the blood of the new covenant: This covenant is in abeyance at this time, for Israel as a nation has yet to come to repentance. (Jeremiah 31:31, and Hebrews 8-13 ). When it does, as described in Zechariah 12:10, the new covenant will once more be made with Israel.​

​

The Church which is the body of Christ and it's administration was made known to Paul by Divine revelation (Eph. 3:3), after Acts 28, and made known by word of mouth and letter, by him as 'The Lord's Prisoner', to the Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon: It's foundation being the truth of Romans 5:12 - 8:39. No covenant is made with it's membership, the only promise made is the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus (Titus 1:2; 3:7; & 2Tim. 1:1, 2Tim. 1:9) . It does have however all spiritual blessings in Christ Jesus, which will be enjoyed in heavenly places in Him, as God's own inheritance in that realm: As redeemed Israel will be on the new earth, with it's blessings of basket and store.​

​

All it's membership are complete in Christ, Holy and without blame in Christ before God, and accepted in the Beloved, having been adopted as Son's of God through Jesus Christ to the glory of God the Father, so that we know Him as the God and father of the Lord Jesus Christ, and our Father therefore 'in' Him. and worship Him in Spirit and in truth. May He be blessed!​

​

We have no place of worship and no creed, but we seek to keep the unity of the Spirit which is already made of Ephesians 4, to the glory of God, the Father, and our Saviour, Lord and Head, Christ Jesus.​

​

Forgive me, there is much more that could be said, but I am not in a position to do more at this time. A prayerful reading of the epistles mentioned, in the light of the prayers of chapter 1:17- 23, and 3:14-21, will supply all that you need,​

​

'And hath put all things under His feet, ​

and gave Him to be the head ​

over all things to the church,​

Which is His body,​

the fulness of Him that filleth all in all.'​

(Eph 1:22-23)​

​

Thank you​

In Christ Jesus​

Chris​

@David Tree said:-

OK my Sister in our Lord Jesus Christ.

Let us, together in Christ, fine tune a couple of statements so that we are in complete agreement with the Word of God.

This (New) covenant is in abeyance at this time, for Israel as a nation has yet to come to repentance​

Is the New Covenant in 'abeyance' or is the earthbound nation Israel in 'abeyance'?

Please validate with scripture that strictly answers the question that you believe fits here = Thank You @Complete

CLUE = your Berean name(Complete)
and thank you for the time you take to elaborate with @jeremiah1five

Hello @David Tree,

I will try to answer your question,

* I believe that Israel is in a Loammi condition at present though back in their land.
* I believe also, as already stated, that the new covenant is also in abeyance.

During the Acts period Gentiles were blessed with faithful Abraham, but by nature and practice were strangers from the covenants of promise.
The gifts were in evidence among them, which Paul hoped would cause his own countrymen to be jealous and seek to emulate them by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ, and coming to repentance. :-

' I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid:
but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles,
for to provoke them to jealousy.'
(Rom 11:11)

* This state of affairs had been prophisied:-

'But I say, Did not Israel know?
First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people,
and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought Me not;
I was made manifest unto them that asked not after Me.
But to Israel He saith, All day long I have stretched forth My hands
unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.'
(Rom 10:19-21)

* If the nation of Israel were not Loammi. or if the new covenant were in operation today, the historical pattern of events would have been so very different: both in world affairs and in the Christian community.

* Peter, at Pentecost, quoted from Joel, and also promised that if Israel repented the times of refreshing would come from the presence of the Lord, and Christ would be sent back to Israel. That would have set in motion the whole end-time experience prophesied, both in Joel, the other prophets, and by our Lord in the gospel record wouldn't it?

'Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out,
when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
And He shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things,
which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.
(Act 3:19-21)

At present I can't see the way forward to answer your questions. Perhaps it is tiredness, David.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris