When You See JERUSALEM Surrounded By Armies, Luke 21

@synergy
You left the mainline Baptists because of their premillennialism view?
I would not call modern day fundamentalism Baptist churches the mainline Baptist of four to five hundred years ago, not even close ~ except for name only, you could not tell them different from the average Pentecostals, and many other groups.
That doesn't explain how you gravitated to the particular Baptists and became calvinistic in your beliefs.
Most churches, and I say most, were very Calvinist in their teaching back three hundred years ago, from the Baptist, Congregationalist, Church of England, Even Methodist (George Whitefield) along with the Wesley's started Methodism. A lot of little Chapels with no name were Calvinist in their teachings. This is not the case any more, in this age of apostasy.
 
@synergy

I would not call modern day fundamentalism Baptist churches the mainline Baptist of four to five hundred years ago, not even close ~ except for name only, you could not tell them different from the average Pentecostals, and many other groups.

Most churches, and I say most, were very Calvinist in their teaching back three hundred years ago, from the Baptist, Congregationalist, Church of England, Even Methodist (George Whitefield) along with the Wesley's started Methodism. A lot of little Chapels with no name were Calvinist in their teachings. This is not the case any more, in this age of apostasy.
So you do like history. You issued out derogatory remarks about history several times. You previously said that "history is written by victors, and is always twisted and perverted in their favor". Now this history is ok for you because it aligns with your desires, I see.

Anyways, it's good that the mainline Baptists have woken up to the blatant errors of calvinism and I hope you do the same. That's the history you should explore.
 
@synergy
So you do like history.
Religious, not secular, especially so Josephus' Wars of the Jews, as folks labor to read his works and force and twist the scriptures to agree with his writings ~ and yes, that type of history is written by victors and his writings indeed twisted and perverted in their favor, that's the nature of the beast, and in this case, the beast of Revelation 13 to more conceal his true identity, and it has work!
Anyways, it's good that the mainline Baptists have woken up to the blatant errors of calvinism
Modern day Baptist churches are part of the problem, that the mustard seed has grown into the largest of all tree and is now the lodging place for the birds of the air........ A.K.A. evil spirits!

Matthew 13:31,32​

“Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field: Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.”

Revelation 18:2​

“And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.”

They as a whole have left the true grace of God, and have a system of works that folks like you can embrace and feel comfortable holding, but four to five hundred years ago, you could not have hidden in the churches preaching and teaching what you now believe and teach, you would have been expose as a false prophet and rejected as the same.
 
@synergy

Religious, not secular,
So you do like religious history. That includes the entire Early Christian Church that believed in the God-given ability of man to believe the Gospel through Volitional Free Choice.
Modern day Baptist churches are part of the problem, that the mustard seed has grown into the largest of all tree and is now the lodging place for the birds of the air........ A.K.A. evil spirits!

Matthew 13:31,32​

“Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field: Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.”
Of course you would call "evil spirits" those who lodge in the tree that represents the Kingdom of God. Your distaste of the Kingdom of God is blatantly obvious for all to see.

Revelation 18:2​

“And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.”

They as a whole have left the true grace of God, and have a system of works that folks like you can embrace and feel comfortable holding, but four to five hundred years ago, you could not have hidden in the churches preaching and teaching what you now believe and teach, you would have been expose as a false prophet and rejected as the same.
Thank God those Calvinist Apostate days are long gone!
 
@synergy
So you do like religious history. That includes the entire Early Christian Church that believed in the God-given ability of man to believe the Gospel through Volitional Free Choice.
Neither Christ nor his apostles taught that lie, but the early church father-so-called did. Which only fulfilled Paul's warning:

Acts 20:29​

“For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.”
 
@synergy

Neither Christ nor his apostles taught that lie, but the early church father-so-called did. Which only fulfilled Paul's warning:

Acts 20:29​

“For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.”
Those are the Calvinists, the JWs, and all those who wish to distort the Gospel.

A perfect example of Gospel distortion is when you called "evil spirits" those who lodge in the tree that represents the Kingdom of God. Your distaste of the Kingdom of God is blatantly obvious for all to see.
 
@Selah


A spiritual resurrection takes place at regeneration/new birth; (John 5:25; Ephesians 2:1; etc.) a physical bodily resurrection take place at the last day per Jesus Christ.

John 5:28​

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

1st Thessalonians 4:14​

“For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"

God will bring our souls/spirits and unite them to our new gloried resurrected bodies.

@Selah


A spiritual resurrection takes place at regeneration/new birth; (John 5:25; Ephesians 2:1; etc.) a physical bodily resurrection take place at the last day per Jesus Christ.

John 5:28​

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

1st Thessalonians 4:14​

“For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"

God will bring our souls/spirits and unite them to our new gloried resurrected bodies.
Waiting for your response to your accusations:

You have to specify what the "confusion" is that you think i am in - otherwise you are grasping for air
AND
what's your claim to my supposed "ignorance" ???

What you are currently doing is a dance inside your head, claiming 'insight' for yourself but with nothing more to say then that which is already contained in 1 Cor chapter 15 = which is straight-forward and easy to understand.
 
@synergy
A perfect example of Gospel distortion is when you called "evil spirits" those who lodge in the tree that represents the Kingdom of God. Your distaste of the Kingdom of God is blatantly obvious for all to see.
Why do you not take Matthew 13:31,32 and prove what I said is wrong, and unless you can do so, then it is you that is corrupting the scriptures for those who have eyes to see and an heart to understand.
 
then it is you that is corrupting the scriptures for those who have eyes to see and an heart to understand.
Waiting for your response to your accusations:

You have to specify what the "confusion" is that you think i am in - otherwise you are grasping for air
AND
what's your claim to my supposed "ignorance" ???

What you are currently doing is a dance inside your head, claiming 'insight' for yourself but with nothing more to say then that which is already contained in 1 Cor chapter 15 = which is straight-forward and easy to understand.
 
@DavidTree
You have to specify what the "confusion" is that you think i am in - otherwise you are grasping for air
AND
what's your claim to my supposed "ignorance" ???
David, where do I start? let me see, may be here:
1 Corinthian chapter 15 is detailing the First Resurrection = by the Resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.
1st Corinthians 15 is not addressing the first resurrection, not even close. I addressed the first resurrection here:

Revelation 20:5​

“But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.”

Some Premillennial Theologians use this verse as support for the idea that there are at least two physical resurrections with a literal earthly millennial reign in between. However, scripture clearly teaches "one" future resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

John 5:28-29~"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

This is the second Resurrection (not the first in Christ) and this is what is described in Revelation 20:12. The First resurrection is in Christ, and it is spiritual in nature. This verse of Revelation is conclusive proof that this is speaking about the souls of those martyred who were saved, and who died physically as it's contrasted against the souls of "the rest of the dead" (the unsaved, who died physically). As believers in Christ those martyred, in their souls go immediately to live and reign with Christ after they die. They are living and reigning with Christ every since He went to the cross to make that possible. We live and reign with Christ in heaven in our souls, even though our bodies decayed, yet we live. That's exactly what the verse is talking about. Believers who die, yet their souls living and reigning with Christ, while unbelievers (the rest of the dead) who die, don't live again until the second resurrection.
Ecclesiastes 12:7
  • "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it".
2nd Corinthians 5:8
  • "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord".
When believers leave this body to dust, our spirits go to be with the Lord. But the rest of the dead, they lived not until after this present millennial reign. These unsaved weren't raised up from death to new life in the first Resurrection in Christ, therefore they cannot go to live and reign with Christ after death. That is the contrast here. In other words, they had no part in the First Resurrection with Christ! And so when they died, they don't live until raised at "The last day" to stand for judgment. That will be the Second Resurrection. Again, spoken of as, "after the thousand years" (indicating once again that it is not to be taken as literally a thousand, because the rest of the dead die at all different times). Lets take a look at what it says here, and what is meant by it.

1st Resurrection:
Every single believer who has been raised up in Christ to new life, hath part in this 1st resurrection. Remember the scriptures talk of Christ as the "FIRST BORN FROM THE DEAD." If that's not the 1st Resurrection from the dead, the new birth in Christ, then nothing is. He is the Resurrection as He told Martha, and all those raised WITH HIM hath part in that first Resurrection ~ and WILL at some time during their life, will be quicken to life by the Spirit of God. They are the Church of the firstborn. On these, the second death hath no power. Of course not, for they never die again! ..He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
2nd Resurrection:
The second coming, at the last trumpet, at the last day, when we that are alive will be raised up to meet Jesus in the air, and Judgment day when the rest of the dead (unsaved who have died) are all are raised up to stand for Judgment.
1st Death:
The death in Adam which all of mankind has suffered and which if they are not resurrected in Christ from that death, they shall suffer the judgement in the second resurrection.
2nd Death:
The Judgment that is meted out By GOD upon the unrighteous. The Lake of fire! There shall be weeping and grinding of teeth! This is the death that the wages of sin brings forth. It's punishment. The 1st Resurrection (Those raised in Christ) have no need to worry about this, as the power of the Cross of Christ (1st Resurrection) has taken away the sting of death.
We see these thousand years are different for each group, and cannot logically or rationally be the same thousand years if that means literally a thousand. Simply put, verse five tells us that the rest of the dead, those who weren't saved by having part in Christ's Resurrection (The First) remained dead, and they didn't live again until after the thousand years. That's not speculation, that's what the scriptures clearly say. And after the fullness of God's purpose, which is a different length of time for each of the dead, then they will be raised to stand for Judgment. Those who make the claim that the first Resurrection is not in Christ are contradicting God's Word. God tells us point blank that Christ is the First Resurrection. And he who hath an ear, let him hear and receive it.

Acts 26:23~"That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles."

Legally we were part of that FIRST resurrection in Christ.

So then, who are we going to believe, God or man? His interpretation, or our own? So there should be no debate but that Christ's raising from the dead is the "First Resurrection," which guarantee our spiritual resurrection by the Spirit of God in time according to God's Word. This is not an interpretation, or my spin on it, it's a direct unadulterated teaching from God's word.

Colossians 1:18~"And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence".

Hebrews 12:23~"To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect"

These are the souls of believers, the First Resurrection, upon which the second death has no power, they live, while the unsaved dead do not. It all fits when the thousand years is not forced to mean something God never intended it to mean. It will never fit when it's forced to mean literally a thousand years. The ones raised up in Christ lived and reigned with him through the thousand years as the Church is being built, but the "rest" of the dead (Unsaved dead) didn't live Again until after the thousand years, when Christ returns to rapture his Church and raise these dead to stand for Judgment.

Remember what the "souls" of those under the altar cried in Revelation 6:10, and Remember God's reply to them? His reply was that they should rest for a season, for there were more people to be martyred. You see, these are the "souls" reigning a thousand years in heaven, not "men" reigning on earth with Christ in a earthly city jerusalem as some Theologians surmise. Christians who have died (physically) and gone to heaven, yet living and Reigning with Christ in their souls existence! God will not Judge till the fullness of His martyrs have come in. He will not loose the judgment of Satan till His set time. Not until His Church is come to the full. This is the marvelous truth of God's Word. And the sad contradiction to those who try and make these souls of 1000 years speak of a literal 1000 year reign of Christ on this sin cursed earth with men.

The First Death ~The first death in Adam, culminating in the putting off of the tabernacle of the flesh when the body dies.

2st Corinthians 15:21
"For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead."

The First: Resurrection~
The First Resurrection in Christ, wherein those who have part in it shall never die. And in time, during their life on earth are spiritually resurrected to eternal life.

Acts 26:23
"That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the First Resurrection from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles".
“And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;”

The Second Resurrection~ The General Resurrection at the end of the world.

John 5:28
"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

The second Death, the judgment for the wicked.

Revelation 20:13-14
"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."
And here:

“That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.”

While you and I would agree that John 5:25 is speaking of a spiritual resurrection that takes place when one is born again, per Ephesians 2:1, etc.

John 5:25​

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.”

Without question this is a spiritual resurrection, that each one of God's children experience in this life, yet teh scriptures does not implies this to be the FIRST. This resurrection is a vital resurrection that has happened since Abel on to this very day.

Jim there is a legal resurrection that took place when Christ arose from the dead, which resurrection secured and guarantee our spiritual resurrection from spiritually dead in trespasses and sins dead that NOW IS taking place since Abel onward. Please consider:

Ephesians 2:4​

“But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:”
Brother Jim, this is the FRIST RESURRECTION of the word of God, called the first by Paul in Acts 26:23, when legally we were raised from the dead when Christ arose from the dead and we now legally sit together with Christ in the heavenly, per Revelation 20:5,6

Jim, all that had part in Christ's resurrection by being IN HIM, the second death has no power over them since the law of God has already declared them free of condemnation through the body of Jesus Christ by the resurrection of Christ, who is indeed the resurrection and life.

John 11:25​

“Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:”

Jim, many years ago, I preached in Martinsville, Virginia to some preachers from Revelation 2:5,6 ~looking back, all I can now say is that I'm thankful that there was not a Red Baker there then, who now has his understanding much better than he did then,(for I would have been corrected, which is okay) for then I only applied the first resurrection to the new birth and NOT to Christ's resurrection which again, secured and guarantee our spiritual birth, which is "never" spoken as the first resurrection, that took place when Christ arose from the dead. You may need to read this twice to see where I'm coming from.

Ephesians 1:17​

“That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:”

This truth is by no means the milk of God's word, it is for those:

Hebrews 5:14​

“But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.”
In no way is 1st Corinthians 15 addressing the spiritual resurrection/new birth which Jesus' resurrection secured for his people.

1st Corinthians 15 is addressing the "second" resurrection at the last trump which will take place at the last day, when time shall be no more. It is the resurrection our our bodies that died in the Lord. It truly is not even debatable.

1 Corinthians 15:51​

“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

This is the second resurrection that shall yet take place at the last trump, the seventh and final trumpet. Blessed and holy are those who hath part in the first resurrection, on which the second death has no power over them.

But, there's more that I will not get into in this thread of statements you made that were unscriptural.
 
@DavidTree

David, where do I start? let me see, may be here:

1st Corinthians 15 is not addressing the first resurrection, not even close. I addressed the first resurrection here:

And here:


In no way is 1st Corinthians 15 addressing the spiritual resurrection/new birth which Jesus' resurrection secured for his people.

1st Corinthians 15 is addressing the "second" resurrection at the last trump which will take place at the last day, when time shall be no more. It is the resurrection our our bodies that died in the Lord. It truly is not even debatable.

1 Corinthians 15:51​

“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

This is the second resurrection that shall yet take place at the last trump, the seventh and final trumpet. Blessed and holy are those who hath part in the first resurrection, on which the second death has no power over them.

But, there's more that I will not get into in this thread of statements you made that were unscriptural.
Get a grip my friend for you just proved that you lack understanding.

“That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.” - Acts 26:23

There are no other First Resurrections then the LORD Jesus Christ = 1 Corinthians ch15 is the First Resurrection of Rev ch20

But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

Anyone who is not in Christ when HE Returns will not be part of the First Resurrection = 1 Thess 4:13-18 & 1 Cor ch15


This is the second resurrection that shall yet take place at the last trump, the seventh and final trumpet. Blessed and holy are those who hath part in the first resurrection, on which the second death has no power over them.
Yep - you really said this = saying the First resurrection is the "second"
 
@DavidTree
Get a grip my friend for you just proved that you lack understanding.

“That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.” - Acts 26:23

There are no other First Resurrections then the LORD Jesus Christ = 1 Corinthians ch15 is the First Resurrection of Rev ch20
David, did you read my last posit to you very carefully? I do not think you did. I clearly said: (these words were written to @Jim, so I just passed them on to you, to show my understanding of the first resurrection of Revelation 20:5,6.)
Acts 26:23~“That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.”

While you and I would agree that John 5:25 is speaking of a spiritual resurrection that takes place when one is born again, per Ephesians 2:1, etc.

John 5:25​

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.”

Without question this is a spiritual resurrection, that each one of God's children experience in this life, yet the scriptures does not implies this to be the FIRST. This resurrection is a vital resurrection that has happened since Abel on to this very day.

Jim there is a "legal" resurrection that took place when Christ arose from the dead, which resurrection secured and guarantee our spiritual resurrection from spiritually dead in trespasses and sins that NOW IS taking place since Abel onward. Please consider:

1st Corinthians 15 is a resurrection chapter dealing with our future bodily resurrection. Just as Christ taught form John 5:29 and Job said here:

Ephesians 2:4​

“But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:”
Brother Jim, this is the FRIST RESURRECTION of the word of God, called the first by Paul in Acts 26:23, when legally we were raised from the dead when Christ arose from the dead and we now legally sit together with Christ in the heavenly, per Revelation 20:5,6

Jim, all that had part in Christ's resurrection by being IN HIM, the second death has no power over them since the law of God has already declared them free of condemnation through the body of Jesus Christ by the resurrection of Christ, who is indeed the resurrection and life.

John 11:25​

“Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:”

Jim, many years ago, I preached in Martinsville, Virginia to some preachers from Revelation 2:5,6 ~looking back, all I can now say is that I'm thankful that there was not a Red Baker there then, who now has his understanding much better than he did then,(for I would have been corrected, which is okay) for then I only applied the first resurrection to the new birth and NOT to Christ's resurrection which again, secured and guarantee our spiritual birth, which is "never" spoken as the first resurrection, that took place when Christ arose from the dead. You may need to read this twice to see where I'm coming from.

Ephesians 1:17​

“That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:”

This truth is by no means the milk of God's word, it is for those:

Hebrews 5:14​

“But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.”
I understand Acts 26:23, I also understand how Paul used it in Ephesians 2:4-7 and how it is relates and used in 1st Corinthians 15. Christ's resurrection "secured" our legal resurrection both vitally (the new birth) and future (bodily) resurrection from the grave, or death, in every sense of how the scriptures uses the word death.
Anyone who is not in Christ when HE Returns will not be part of the First Resurrection = 1 Thess 4:13-18 & 1 Cor ch15
David, that's an unscriptural statement.

All that have been in Christ, that is, chosen in him per Ephesians 1:4 from the foundation of the world; had part in Christ's resurrection from the dead, per Ephesians 2:4-7; thereby, during their life on earth, were raised from being spiritual dead in trespasses and sins, to being alive in Jesus Christ, where they will never truly ever die ~ these will God bring with him when he comes, and unite their souls/spirits with their immoral gloried bodies, which they do not have at the present.
But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
These scriptures you are quoting, do you not hear them?

Just as I said: this takes place at Christ's coming at the last day not before then, at the present our souls/spirits live with Christ until that day when each shall receive his glorified body.

Job 14:12​

“So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.”
 
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