EclipseEventSigns
Well-known member
What exactly is the LXX? You assume it one particular thing. You'll have to give evidence because that's not according to the evidence.
Isaiah 53 the origin of PSA
- Thread starter civic
- Start date
Johann
Well-known member
But we can erase the Penal aspect of the atonement-correct?
civic
Well-known member
There is nothing penal in the atonement. Take away the P in PSA and I’m onboard with everything else it teaches. PSA in a nutshell is a divided Godhead pouring wrath on Himself.
If God needs to be appeased and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are God then you have serious problem within the Trinity since Jesus would be angry with Himself.
God is a Tri- Unity not a Dis- Unity.
hope this helps !!!
Based mainly on the Vaticanus, Sinaiticus, and Alexandrinus manuscripts, Alfred Rahlfs formulated an edition of the Septuagint, called Rahlfs' Septuagint or Rahlfs' Septuaginta. This edition is the most widely spread edition of the Septuagint.
In 2006 Robert Hanhart produced a revised edition which is available here:
GENESIS 1 - Septuaginta (LXX) - www.die-bibel.de
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἐποίησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν οὐρανὸν καὶ τὴν γῆν. ἡ δὲ γῆ ἦν ἀόρατος καὶ ἀκατασκεύαστος, καὶ σκότος ἐπάνω τῆς ἀβύσσου, καὶ πνεῦμα θεοῦ ἐπεφέρετο ἐπάνω ...
CC: @EclipseEventSigns
Johann
Well-known member
Καὶ εἶπεν ὁ θεός Συναχθήτω τὸ ὕδωρ τὸ ὑποκάτω τοῦ οὐρανοῦ εἰς συναγωγὴν μίαν, καὶ ὀφθήτω ἡ ξηρά. καὶ ἐγένετο οὕτως. καὶ συνήχθη τὸ ὕδωρ τὸ ὑποκάτω τοῦ οὐρανοῦ εἰς τὰς συναγωγὰς αὐτῶν, καὶ ὤφθη ἡ ξηρά.Based mainly on the Vaticanus, Sinaiticus, and Alexandrinus manuscripts, Alfred Rahlfs formulated an edition of the Septuagint, called Rahlfs' Septuagint or Rahlfs' Septuaginta. This edition is the most widely spread edition of the Septuagint.
In 2006 Robert Hanhart produced a revised edition which is available here:
GENESIS 1 - Septuaginta (LXX) - www.die-bibel.de
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἐποίησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν οὐρανὸν καὶ τὴν γῆν. ἡ δὲ γῆ ἦν ἀόρατος καὶ ἀκατασκεύαστος, καὶ σκότος ἐπάνω τῆς ἀβύσσου, καὶ πνεῦμα θεοῦ ἐπεφέρετο ἐπάνω ...diebibel.ibep-prod.com
CC: @EclipseEventSigns
Appreciate the link-do you read Greek?
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God made the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 But the earth was unseen and unready, and darkness was upon the abyss, and spirit of God bore upon the water.
ABP
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God made the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 But the earth was unsightly and unfurnished, and darkness was over the deep, and the Spirit of God moved over the water.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning Elohim created the heavens and the earth;
Gen 1:2 and the earth being without form and empty, and darkness on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of Elohim moving gently on the face of the waters,
HRB
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God made the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 But the earth was unsightly and unfurnished, and darkness was over the deep, and the Spirit of God moved over the water.
Brenton
Would you read these also?
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Johann
Well-known member
I am a full on PSA believer brother and nothing is going to change that.
I have a good understanding of Greek. I'm no expert but my Greek is getting better each day the more I delve into it. I recognized the above verse where God collected the waters for dry land to appear.
I usually consult Brenton whenever I need help. I haven't used ABP that much but I'll start to. Not sure why I would need HRB? I'm going to purchase the Orthodox Study Bible shortly, especially if they have an online copy.
Johann
Well-known member
Good to hear you are getting familiar with Greek-not difficult and HRB you can use as you compare the other translations.
Here is the Orthodox Study Bible-a foretaste-
In the beginning God made heaven and earth.
†ω 2The earth was invisible and unfinished;
God the Father made heaven and earth. “I believe in one God the Father Almighty,Maker of heaven and earth” (Creed).
The Spirit of God is the Holy Spirit (BasilG; EphS). He proceeds from the Father, and is
“the Lord and Giver of Life” (Creed). Since He is Lord, He is coequal with the Father, and
is His Coworker in making heaven and earth.
God the Father spoke to His Word and Only-begotten Son, through whom He made the
light (AthanG). Since the Son, too, is Lord, He is coequal with the Father, and is His
Coworker in making heaven and earth.
The Holy Fathers teach that the Father made heaven and earth through the Son and in
the Holy Spirit. Thus, the Holy Trinity made heaven and earth, and the Church sings, “We
glorify the Father, we exalt the Son, and we worship the Holy Spirit—the indivisible
Trinity who exists as One—the Light and Lights, the Life and Lives, who grants light and
life to the ends of the world” (CanonAnd).
Since the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit made heaven and earth, They also
made everything mentioned in these verses.
and darkness was over the deep. The Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the
water.
† 3Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.
† 4God saw the light; it was
good; and God divided the light from the darkness.
† 5God called the light Day; the darkness
He called Night; and there was evening and morning, one day.
You are on the right path @synergy and though we disagree on some points that is minor- I still consider you as a brother in Christ.
Shalom to you and family.
Do you know if an online copy of the Orthodox Study Bible is available?
My Hebrew is non-existent. Without the LXX, I would have been totally overmatched regarding any and all Biblical topics.
All the best to you and your family.
Johann
Well-known member
Enjoy-and may the Holy Spirit lead you in the path of righteousness and highway of holiness
Don't fret about it-although Hebrew is not that difficult either.
Now you have all the tools to gently correct and debate-in love, of course.
civic
Well-known member
That’s great since it’s a non essential to salvation.
In the essentials unity, non essentials liberty and in all things charity.
Johann
Well-known member
Great quote and you are growing and maturing in Messiah brother.
Shalom Achi.
101G
Well-known member
civic
Well-known member
Read the OP and see for yourself
101G
Well-known member
I did, and I read the crucifixion account, and the reason behind it, did not you? I see no point in your vindication of Sin without suffering.
101G.
101G
Well-known member
@civic,
is not the penalty of sin is death? now what is the cost, and what is required to pay this penalty? Love? no, was not love already here, and it cost nothing. but we was bought with a price. so what was the buying, or the redeeming for? and what was the price/Cost..... think..... "DEATH vs Life. so what was the cost?
101G.
is not the penalty of sin is death? now what is the cost, and what is required to pay this penalty? Love? no, was not love already here, and it cost nothing. but we was bought with a price. so what was the buying, or the redeeming for? and what was the price/Cost..... think..... "DEATH vs Life. so what was the cost?
101G.
101G
Well-known member
To all,
Isaiah 53:11 "He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities."
here the bible is clear about the penalty
H5771 עָוֹן `avon (aw-vone') n-m.
עָווֹן `avown (aw-vone') [2 Kings 7:9, Psalm 51:5 (7)]
1. contortion.
2. (moral) depravity.
3. (consequence) penalty for depravity.
[from H5753]
KJV: fault, iniquity, mischeif, punishment (of iniquity), sin.
Root(s): H5753
Compare: H205, H2403, H5766
as well as here, Isaiah 53:12 "Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."
BEAR: H5375 נָשָׂא nasa' (naw-saw') v.
נָסָה nacah (naw-saw') [Psalm 4:6 (7)]
1. to lift.
2. to bear.
3. (specially) to affirmingly lift up one's hand in solemn declaration (as an oath).
{in a great variety of applications, literal and figurative, absolute and relative (as follows)}
[a primitive root]
KJV: accept, advance, arise, (able to, (armor), suffer to) bear(-er, up), bring (forth), burn, carry (away), cast, contain, desire, ease, exact, exalt (self), extol, fetch, forgive, furnish, further, give, go on, help, high, hold up, honorable (+ man), lade, lay, lift (self) up, lofty, marry, magnify, X needs, obtain, pardon, raise (up), receive, regard, respect, set (up), spare, stir up, + swear, take (away, up), X utterly, wear, yield.
Compare: H3722, H5545
See also: H5376, H5379, H7613, H4853, H4856, H4858, H4984, H4864, G142
as well as Isaiah 53:6 "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."
101G.
Isaiah 53:11 "He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities."
here the bible is clear about the penalty
H5771 עָוֹן `avon (aw-vone') n-m.
עָווֹן `avown (aw-vone') [2 Kings 7:9, Psalm 51:5 (7)]
1. contortion.
2. (moral) depravity.
3. (consequence) penalty for depravity.
[from H5753]
KJV: fault, iniquity, mischeif, punishment (of iniquity), sin.
Root(s): H5753
Compare: H205, H2403, H5766
as well as here, Isaiah 53:12 "Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."
BEAR: H5375 נָשָׂא nasa' (naw-saw') v.
נָסָה nacah (naw-saw') [Psalm 4:6 (7)]
1. to lift.
2. to bear.
3. (specially) to affirmingly lift up one's hand in solemn declaration (as an oath).
{in a great variety of applications, literal and figurative, absolute and relative (as follows)}
[a primitive root]
KJV: accept, advance, arise, (able to, (armor), suffer to) bear(-er, up), bring (forth), burn, carry (away), cast, contain, desire, ease, exact, exalt (self), extol, fetch, forgive, furnish, further, give, go on, help, high, hold up, honorable (+ man), lade, lay, lift (self) up, lofty, marry, magnify, X needs, obtain, pardon, raise (up), receive, regard, respect, set (up), spare, stir up, + swear, take (away, up), X utterly, wear, yield.
Compare: H3722, H5545
See also: H5376, H5379, H7613, H4853, H4856, H4858, H4984, H4864, G142
as well as Isaiah 53:6 "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."
101G.
Johann
Well-known member
There you have it-graphically portrayed-PSA, Penal Substitutionary Atonement.
Well done
101G
Well-known member
Johann
Well-known member
I am not here to claim any "victory"-just searching after truth.
