Is Jesus the Christ a human Person?
- Thread starter Matthias
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APAK
Active member
So you do not agree with scripture. Fair enough..
So you then do not believe as scripture explicitly and implicitly says: that that Father God, dwells in the Son. I bet you are afraid to look for this scripture and you know they are there...you have read or quickly glossed over them many times as if not too important I imagine. They do not serve your religious needs of course.
And the Father incidentally is the only and the only one who is the the entire (fulleee....wee...what a joke) so-called godhead/deity. Phony expression(s) added in to replace the sole and source of divinity of God, the Father in the 1300s. And you must know this already and that does not bother you I expect.
And then in my view you mock God and his Son and those that believe that the Father, and his divinity (word and spirit) lived(s) in his Son. You have to believe this to be saved, and this is not arithmetic 101 to explain it to you either. And by my estimation, you are not even in that class yet.
THERE IS NO SCRIPTURE, and I can repeat it 1000x to no avail, that says what you wrote here civic: "HE is GOD so all the fullness...etc garbage.' It is UTTER TRASH and nonsense! edited, according to and against scripture? And these defiant words of yours paralyze the spirit of scripture, entirely.
There is no scripture that speaks to your way of thinking, only from the cunning tales of men of their ignorant words and imaginations who will abandon you with a blink of their eyes, upon the decision to judge you and not themselves, and condemn you to death instead of themselves if it warranted, if death is decided upon their words you use, as your life-line and anchor in life, not for this one for the next, that then will surely be lost, both their words and your life.
You are trampling on scripture and imposing your own self-centered words without a care in the world. You have this fatalistic religious bug and you don't even know it yet.
'Fully God and Full Man' is blasphemy to the word of God. Do you know this?!
civic
Well-known member
no unitarianism is blasphemy against Christ- you are projecting again. see John 8:44 as Jesus addresses the unitarians.
APAK
Active member
Now you are scrambling for the exit I see...I hope you reread my posts along the way out...
I would refrain for the childish expression of 'projection' you are trying to label me with. I do not think you understand the term. Do you really want me to explain this to you as well.
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civic
Well-known member
No only the ones Jesus condemned in John 8 and Matthew 23. Not all Jews were Unitarians.
hope this helps !!!
Maybe just maybe you might forward a Biblical verse or two that rectifies my view of things.
Anyways, APAK's remarks below continue to be appropriate for you and your evasive responses concerning John 8:58-59:
Wrangler
Well-known member
Jesus cannot be God since he is the created and adopted son of God.
The idea that ‘the fullness’ of a mouse dwells in Charlie so that makes Charlie fully a mouse and fully a man is absurd. A container is not the same as what it contains.
To pile contradiction upon contradiction, you say he is fully both A and not-A. The Bible only says Jesus is a man and never says he is God. Only the father is God is what Scripture explicitly says.
There is one God, the Father. That’s good enough for me. Why is it not good enough for you?
In your rant, you forget John 8:58-59. There are multitudes of other verses I can mention but these 2 verses are sufficient for this conversation.
APAK
Active member
It's not good enough for many other including civic, because they want to see, experience and fall down and hero worship, idolize a super figure of a man, like a superman. ...it will never be good enough for them, as they mock the Father in the process. The Father, the first and only time he created a human being fashioned in his likeness with his imaged attributes and spirit as a real human person is not good enough for them...they call this just a mere man....how ungrateful and proud they are as they beat they breasts want more than a man from the Son that God created for us and our salvation. Why did the Father even bother to bring salvation to this wretched lot is beyond me. He knew only a few would receive him and his Son as they are, and in thanksgiving.
APAK
Active member
Multiple other verses...I hear you and the words are cheap, and of course do not believe you.
So, what do you know about John 8:58-59? Draw me up a picture, or a short commentary on these verses so as to persuade someone, even myself.
You should know the local and general context by now, right? If you are serious in bringing truth you will do this with a happy face.
Thanks
All I ask is that you believe Christ when He said "Before Abraham came into being, I AM! (ἐγὼ εἰμί)".
(John 8:58) Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came into being, I AM! (ἐγὼ εἰμί)
(John 8:59) Then they took up stones to throw at Him. But Jesus hid Himself and went forth out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and passed on by.
Excuse us for going against Pharisaic unitarianism by worshipping Jesus as God.
(John 10:33) The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”
APAK
Active member
Well it is a start, by just listing the verses and the Greek of words you wish to highlight from a specific translation. I get that...
You know that all caps: 'I AM' is not necessary, 'I am' means the same thing and should have the same effect. A translator might make then all caps because he/she would want to personalize their input and their biases into the scripture.
So what do you think 'I am' means in the Greek? It's transliterated as 'ego eimi’
Now I may be getting ahead of both of us.....I expect you will try to unite and compare Exodus verse expressions with this Greek 'ego eimi’.
You know this comparison is a fools errand as it will not be the same words if the Hebrew is translated into Greek and because they are written for a quite different context and audience. They will never mean the same thing. I can show you this in the next post
APAK
Active member
You have me responding to another post of yours....can it wait until that is completed? thanks.
Whilst in limbo look at the most important expression in the one verse you raised. 'make yourself God.' really understand these words....thx
The Pharisees clearly understood Jesus because this was their accusation shortly after:
(John 10:33) The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”
Absolutely. My responses are going to be sporadic as I am multitasking right now.
I'll look at the Greek.
civic
Well-known member
Colossians 2:9
King James Bible
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily
Now read the Greek below on the present ongoing meaning of DWELLS . The bodily dwelling of Deity is permanent not temporary. The Incarnation was PERMANENT.
κατοικεῖ (katoikei)
Verb - Present Indicative Active - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's Greek 2730: To dwell in, settle in, be established in (permanently), inhabit. From kata and oikeo; to house permanently, i.e. Reside.
8.2 σωματικός, ή, όν; σωματικῶςa: (derivatives of σῶμαa ‘body,’ 8.1) pertaining to a physical body—‘bodily, physical, bodily form.’[1] Louw Nida
Expositor's Greek Testament
Colossians 2:9. in Him and in Him alone.—κατοικεῖ: “permanently dwells”. The reference is to the Exalted State, not only on account of the present, but of the context and Paul’s Christology generally.—πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα τῆς θεότητος: “all the fulness of the Godhead”. πᾶν is emphatic, the whole fulness dwells in Christ.
Body
sōmatikṓs (an adverb, derived from 4984 /sōmatikós which is an adjective derived from 4983 /sṓma, "body") – bodily(used only in Col 2:9)Loew & Nida Greek Lexicon
Paul is talking in Col chapters 2-3 about the glorified resurrected Christ now seated at the right hand of God not the earthly Christ pre resurrection. This is a slam dunk that He is in a human glorified resurrection body and that He continues to have all the fullness of Deity dwelling bodily in the present.
Bodily (σωματικῶς) In bodily fashion or bodily-wise. The verse contains two distinct assertions: 1. That the fullness of the Godhead eternally dwells in Christ. The present tense κατοικεῖ dwelleth, is used like ἐστιν is (the image), Colossians 1:15, to denote an eternal and essential characteristic of Christ's being. The indwelling of the divine fullness in Him is characteristic of Him as Christ, from all ages and to all ages. Hence the fullness of the Godhead dwelt in Him before His incarnation, when He was "in the form of God" (Philippians 2:6). The Word in the beginning, was with God and was God (John 1:1). It dwelt in Him during His incarnation. It was the Word that became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth, and His glory which was beheld was the glory as of the Only begotten of the Father (John 1:14; compare 1 John 1:1-3). The fullness of the Godhead dwells in His glorified humanity in heaven.
2. The fullness of the Godhead dwells in Him in a bodily way, clothed the body. This means that it dwells in Him as one having a human body. This could not be true of His preincarnate state, when He was "in the form of God," for the human body was taken on by Him in the fullness of time, when "He became in the likeness of men" (Philippians 2:7), when the Word became flesh. The fullness of the Godhead dwelt in His person from His birth to His ascension. He carried His human body with Him into heaven, and in His glorified body now and ever dwells the fullness of the Godhead. Vincent Greek Word Studies (2:9) Commenting on the contents of this verse, Lightfoot says; “The apostle justifies the foregoing charge that the doctrine was not according to Christ: ‘In Christ dwells the whole plērōma (πληρωμα) (fulness, plenitude), the entire fulness of the Godhead, whereas they represent it to you as dispersed among several spiritual agencies. Christ is the fountain-head of all spiritual life, whereas they teach you to seek it in communion with inferior creatures.’ ”
Conclusion: no one in the history of mankind has ever had all the fulness of Deity in them except Christ alone who is God manifest in the flesh. just as the Father and the Holy Spirit have all the fulness of Deity, so to does the Incarnate Son- Forever God in the flesh !
What a Marvelous Triune God we serve !
hope this helps !!!
civic
Well-known member
Continued as I’ll stick with the biblical idea of the Incarnation.
Phil 2:5-8
In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
NIV
These translation capture the meaning of the text in its CONTEXT.
New International Version
rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
New Living Translation
Instead, he gave up his divine privileges; he took the humble position of a slave and was born as a human being. When he appeared in human form,
New King James Version
but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.
King James Bible
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Thayers Greek Lexicon
namely, τοῦ εἶναι ἴσα Θεῷ or τῆς μορφῆς τοῦ Θεοῦ, i. e. he laid aside equality with or the form of God (said of Christ), Philippians 2:7
Strongs Lexicon
From kenos; to make empty, i.e. (figuratively) to abase, neutralize, falsify -- make (of none effect, of no reputation, void), be in vain.
Louw Nida Greek Lexicon
87.70 κενόωb: to completely remove or eliminate elements of high status or rank by eliminating all privileges or prerogatives associated with such status or rank.
What Paul makes very clear in this passage is that in addition to being God, He became man. The Incarnation was not a subtraction of His deity but an addition of humanity to His nature. This passage does not say Jesus gave up His deity but that He laid aside His rights as Deity, assuming the form of a servant in verse 7. The text says He was in the form of God or being in the very nature of God in 2:6. Just as He took upon Himself the "form of a servant" which is a servant by nature, so the "form of God" is God by nature. The word "being" from the phrase: being in the very form of God is a present active participle. This means "continued existence" as God. What Paul is actually saying here is Jesus has always been and still is in the "form of God". If you continue reading the passage Paul really drives this point home so that his readers have no doubt what he is trying to get across to the Philippians. Paul says that every knee will bow and will one day Confess Jesus is LORD. Paul takes the passage in Isaiah 45:23 which clearly refers to Yahweh a name used for God alone and says this of Jesus. The fulfillment of YHWH in Isaiah 45 is none other than Jesus who is God(Yahweh) in the flesh.
He self limited His divine prerogatives via the Incarnation as per Phil 2. In other words did not use them to His advantage but was in submission to the Father for 33 years to accomplish our salvation. All the FULLNESS of DEITY dwells in bodily form. Col 1:19;2:9. Jesus was and is fully God lacking nothing in His Deity.
Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
Even through Christ existed in the form of God He did not regard equality with God something that He needed to reach for or grasp. Why because it was already His and never gave that up for a millisecond.
Paul is using syllogisms from the text in Philippians 2.
Just as the term “form of God” in verse six does not mean “less than God” because of the phrase “equality with God" in the prior passage.
It goes to reason in the same way with the 2 phrases in the “form of a servant” and in the “likeness of man” in verse seven do not mean that Jesus was any “less than human,” but instead means He was the same or “equal with all humans.”
That is how the passage reads and how it is to be understood in its " CONTEXT ".
In Colossians 1:19 and Colossians 2:9 the Apostle Paul said, For in HIM (CHRIST) ALL of the “ fullness of deity dwells bodily. “Did Paul use the word fullness there to mean partially? NO as Jesus did not empty Himself of His Deity. Jesus Divinity is FULL, complete lacking in nothing. The ENTIRE Fullness of Deity dwells (is present) bodily in Jesus.
I will go with my exegetical analysis of the text .
conclusion:When Jesus came to earth He laid aside or emptied Himself of something. There are many misconceptions at to what He set aside. It was not His Deity. Jesus could not empty Himself of His Deity - He could not stop being God. He was always God the Son. He could not exchange His Deity for His humanity. Neither did He set aside only some of His divine attributes and keep others. In addition, Jesus always knew He was God and possessed these divine attributes - He was not ignorant of who He was or what He could do. Moreover Jesus allowed the people to know that He had such powers. Neither did Jesus set aside the use of His relative attributes such as being all-powerful, all-knowing, and everywhere present. Those powers were always present with Him.When Jesus became a human being He divested Himself of certain rights as God the Son. This can be seen in three ways. First He restricted Himself to a human body with all its limitations. He gave up His position when He became a human being. Second He veiled or hid His glory from the people. Finally, He exercised His relative attributes only by the will of God the Father - never on His own initiative.
hope this helps !!!
Phil 2:5-8
In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
NIV
These translation capture the meaning of the text in its CONTEXT.
New International Version
rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
New Living Translation
Instead, he gave up his divine privileges; he took the humble position of a slave and was born as a human being. When he appeared in human form,
New King James Version
but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.
King James Bible
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Thayers Greek Lexicon
namely, τοῦ εἶναι ἴσα Θεῷ or τῆς μορφῆς τοῦ Θεοῦ, i. e. he laid aside equality with or the form of God (said of Christ), Philippians 2:7
Strongs Lexicon
From kenos; to make empty, i.e. (figuratively) to abase, neutralize, falsify -- make (of none effect, of no reputation, void), be in vain.
Louw Nida Greek Lexicon
87.70 κενόωb: to completely remove or eliminate elements of high status or rank by eliminating all privileges or prerogatives associated with such status or rank.
What Paul makes very clear in this passage is that in addition to being God, He became man. The Incarnation was not a subtraction of His deity but an addition of humanity to His nature. This passage does not say Jesus gave up His deity but that He laid aside His rights as Deity, assuming the form of a servant in verse 7. The text says He was in the form of God or being in the very nature of God in 2:6. Just as He took upon Himself the "form of a servant" which is a servant by nature, so the "form of God" is God by nature. The word "being" from the phrase: being in the very form of God is a present active participle. This means "continued existence" as God. What Paul is actually saying here is Jesus has always been and still is in the "form of God". If you continue reading the passage Paul really drives this point home so that his readers have no doubt what he is trying to get across to the Philippians. Paul says that every knee will bow and will one day Confess Jesus is LORD. Paul takes the passage in Isaiah 45:23 which clearly refers to Yahweh a name used for God alone and says this of Jesus. The fulfillment of YHWH in Isaiah 45 is none other than Jesus who is God(Yahweh) in the flesh.
He self limited His divine prerogatives via the Incarnation as per Phil 2. In other words did not use them to His advantage but was in submission to the Father for 33 years to accomplish our salvation. All the FULLNESS of DEITY dwells in bodily form. Col 1:19;2:9. Jesus was and is fully God lacking nothing in His Deity.
Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
Even through Christ existed in the form of God He did not regard equality with God something that He needed to reach for or grasp. Why because it was already His and never gave that up for a millisecond.
Paul is using syllogisms from the text in Philippians 2.
Just as the term “form of God” in verse six does not mean “less than God” because of the phrase “equality with God" in the prior passage.
It goes to reason in the same way with the 2 phrases in the “form of a servant” and in the “likeness of man” in verse seven do not mean that Jesus was any “less than human,” but instead means He was the same or “equal with all humans.”
That is how the passage reads and how it is to be understood in its " CONTEXT ".
In Colossians 1:19 and Colossians 2:9 the Apostle Paul said, For in HIM (CHRIST) ALL of the “ fullness of deity dwells bodily. “Did Paul use the word fullness there to mean partially? NO as Jesus did not empty Himself of His Deity. Jesus Divinity is FULL, complete lacking in nothing. The ENTIRE Fullness of Deity dwells (is present) bodily in Jesus.
I will go with my exegetical analysis of the text .
conclusion:When Jesus came to earth He laid aside or emptied Himself of something. There are many misconceptions at to what He set aside. It was not His Deity. Jesus could not empty Himself of His Deity - He could not stop being God. He was always God the Son. He could not exchange His Deity for His humanity. Neither did He set aside only some of His divine attributes and keep others. In addition, Jesus always knew He was God and possessed these divine attributes - He was not ignorant of who He was or what He could do. Moreover Jesus allowed the people to know that He had such powers. Neither did Jesus set aside the use of His relative attributes such as being all-powerful, all-knowing, and everywhere present. Those powers were always present with Him.When Jesus became a human being He divested Himself of certain rights as God the Son. This can be seen in three ways. First He restricted Himself to a human body with all its limitations. He gave up His position when He became a human being. Second He veiled or hid His glory from the people. Finally, He exercised His relative attributes only by the will of God the Father - never on His own initiative.
hope this helps !!!
Wrangler
Well-known member
I point out that everyone says I am. Since saying I am is a claim to being a deity, and by everyone says it, the logical conclusion is that everyone is the one God.
Doesn't help the cause for the trinity.
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