FreeInChrist
Active Member
And again.... Saul was chosen to become Paul; and do all that he did.
He served a purpose for God and ws chosen by God to fulfill that purpose.
Tell me... what task has God predetermined that you would do?
Irresistible Grace
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He served a purpose for God and ws chosen by God to fulfill that purpose.
Tell me... what task has God predetermined that you would do?
brightfame52
Active Member
That applies to the whole Body of Believers. not just apostles 1 Cor 12:12-31
So its not just about Apostles, though they had a more eminent service for Christ, yet all the members serve a vital important part in the service of God, and He used the same Grace to place them in their service.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
I agree that 1 Corinthians 12 teaches that all believers are part of one body and that God appoints different roles within it. But that chapter is addressing the diversity of spiritual gifts and functions within those who already believe — not the mechanism of how each person comes to faith.
Saul’s conversion in Acts 9 was extraordinary and uniquely tied to his apostolic calling. God intervened dramatically because Paul was chosen for a foundational role in redemptive history (cf. Gal 1:15–16). That doesn’t automatically establish that every individual conversion operates the same way or that grace is therefore irresistible in every case.
Ephesians 3:7 speaks of Paul’s ministry being empowered by God’s grace — again connected to his apostolic commission. It doesn’t explicitly state that grace cannot be resisted by those hearing the gospel.
If anything, Scripture also shows people resisting grace (Acts 7:51) and grieving the Spirit (Eph 4:30), which suggests that divine grace can be opposed.
So I would distinguish between:
• God sovereignly appointing roles within the body
• God sovereignly initiating salvation
• And whether individuals can resist that grace
Those aren’t identical categories.
Correct. It includes prophets, Job, Noah, Moses, Adam, Ill even toss Nicodemus in on that one... maybe.
But you, nor I , nor anyone in these forums were giving a "work" to fulfill to make God's plan from beginning until Jesus returns of a real importance.... Those God needed and elected, were done so because he needed them... And yes... many I have not mentioned....
brightfame52
Active Member
Then that makes my point, the same abundance and power of Grace that made Saul into the Apostle Paul, does also act abundantly towards all them who shall be saved in like manner, though not in the same service.
brightfame52
Active Member
Speak for yourself, all believers as Paul had, a special lot of works by grace to walk in before they were born sinners. Eph 2:10
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them
These good works that believers should walk in, being ordained unto, God purposed before they were born, and their being created new in Christ was required, so He did everything needed to be done to fulfill his Purpose.
Man doesn't contribute nothing to the workmanship of God, that's Idolatry. The word for workmanship is poiēma:
- of the works of God as creator
This was stated in the OT Isa 43 7
Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.
So be careful lest you find yourself claiming Glory that belongs only to God
brightfame52
Active Member
This thought process is opposed to and anti body1 Cor 12
14 For the body is not one member, but many.
15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16 ;And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
20But now are they many members, yet but one body.
21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
The word necesasary anagkaios :
necessary
- what one can not do without, indispensable
TibiasDad
Active Member
10For if,
This is an if/then scenario, a hypothetical logical argument, that if A is true then B is also true.
…while we were God’s enemies,
This is a universal truth applicable to every single human born of Adam, no exceptions or exclusions.
we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son,
That is that we were now universally redeemable because of Christ
how much more, having been reconciled,
Again this is an assumptive argument, if, we have indeed, been reconciled
shall we be saved through his life!
Note the use of the future tense, as denoting a yet to be completed action. This will, indeed, happen, but it is held as true by faith.
I have no doubt that we have received it; but this is not entirely exclusive to believers- all have universally been reconciled, but only those who have believed shall be saved. Those who do not accept this reconciliation, who willfully reject it, are lost. All are able to be saved; all are able to believe; only those who are continually believers will be saved!
Doug
brightfame52
Active Member
You not talking about nothing
TibiasDad
Active Member
No, I am not talking about nothing, I’m talking about Rom 5:10 in detailed terms; something you are yet to do.
Doug
brightfame52
Active Member
Read Ephesians 2:1-10
Without question, the Word of God plainly teaches us that the source and cause of salvation is the sovereign will and pleasure of God (Rom. 9:16). The will of man is in no way the cause of salvation. Man’s will has nothing more to do with the accomplishment of salvation than his works. ‘Salvation is of the Lord’ entirely of the Lord! Yes, man must believe. Man’s will must be incurred towards Christ. The sinner must willingly repent, believe and bow to the Lord Jesus Christ. These things are acts of the human will. They are all necessary for salvation. No man will ever be saved whose will is in rebellion to God. God will have a willing people to worship him. However, man’s will is not the cause of God’s saving grace. The cause of grace is the will of God alone and it is the grace of God that causes his people to be willing in the day of his power (Ps. 65:4; 110: 3).'Whosoever will’, let him come to Christ and be saved, and let him know assuredly that grace has made him willing to come. Otherwise he would never have the will to come.
I contend that every saved sinner gladly acknowledges the fact that the cause of, and reason for his salvation, is not his will, but God’s will. Paul’s experience of grace was a pattern, showing forth the experience of believers (I Tim. 1: 16) and it is certain that Paul’s will was not the cause of his salvation. Read Acts 9, and you will see that Paul’s will did not even co-operate with God’s will in saving him. Paul’s will was the destruction of all who worshipped Christ and the utter annihilation of the name of the Lord Jesus Christ from the earth. Grace absolutely arrested Paul. By irresistible power and grace, God made Paul fall to the ground and revealed his Son in him. Not until God had put him down in the dust on the Damascus road was Paul willing to hear his voice and trust his Son. Any man who experiences the grace that Paul experienced will gladly acknowledge what Paul acknowledged: ‘When it pleased God ... he revealed his Son in me.' http://www.donfortner.com/html_firm/Grace For Today.htm
Without question, the Word of God plainly teaches us that the source and cause of salvation is the sovereign will and pleasure of God (Rom. 9:16). The will of man is in no way the cause of salvation. Man’s will has nothing more to do with the accomplishment of salvation than his works. ‘Salvation is of the Lord’ entirely of the Lord! Yes, man must believe. Man’s will must be incurred towards Christ. The sinner must willingly repent, believe and bow to the Lord Jesus Christ. These things are acts of the human will. They are all necessary for salvation. No man will ever be saved whose will is in rebellion to God. God will have a willing people to worship him. However, man’s will is not the cause of God’s saving grace. The cause of grace is the will of God alone and it is the grace of God that causes his people to be willing in the day of his power (Ps. 65:4; 110: 3).'Whosoever will’, let him come to Christ and be saved, and let him know assuredly that grace has made him willing to come. Otherwise he would never have the will to come.
I contend that every saved sinner gladly acknowledges the fact that the cause of, and reason for his salvation, is not his will, but God’s will. Paul’s experience of grace was a pattern, showing forth the experience of believers (I Tim. 1: 16) and it is certain that Paul’s will was not the cause of his salvation. Read Acts 9, and you will see that Paul’s will did not even co-operate with God’s will in saving him. Paul’s will was the destruction of all who worshipped Christ and the utter annihilation of the name of the Lord Jesus Christ from the earth. Grace absolutely arrested Paul. By irresistible power and grace, God made Paul fall to the ground and revealed his Son in him. Not until God had put him down in the dust on the Damascus road was Paul willing to hear his voice and trust his Son. Any man who experiences the grace that Paul experienced will gladly acknowledge what Paul acknowledged: ‘When it pleased God ... he revealed his Son in me.' http://www.donfortner.com/html_firm/Grace For Today.htm
A man can't cause salvation. He can't flap his arms and end up in heaven. But he can synergistically want it. ...
Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
FreeInChrist
Active Member
And what ws he told?
Acts 16:31They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
He was not told that he had been predestined for salvation and then now he needed to believe.... He was told Believe, and He made his choice right then and there to accept the offer handed to him =free will
Ephesians 2:8–9 teaches salvation by grace, received through faith, apart from works.
The verse emphasizes the source of salvation (grace) and the means of receiving it (faith).
It does not explicitly define the order of regeneration and faith.
You are right. He cannot cause his own salvation , but he can accept it when he knows.
brightfame52
Active Member
Grace can and does
Correct, he can't save himself. But he can believe it. Subsequently God will do the saving. ...
Acts 16:31 (KJV) And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
civic
Active Member
Amen
TibiasDad
Active Member
Question: Do you think that I, as a Wesleyan Arminian would disagree with this or say anything contrary to what you’ve said?
The difference between us is not what you’ve stated above, it is whether what causes us to come to the realization of our guilt before God is the act of being born again or being enlightened/convicted by God’s Spirit of our reality before God.
Doug
synergy
Active Member
Paul’s conversion does NOT resemble a Calvinist model of irresistible, pre-faith regeneration but instead shows a grace-initiated yet response-dependent encounter. Christ confronts Paul directly (Acts 9; 22; 26), yet Jesus describes Paul as “kicking against the goads,” indicating prior resistance rather than an mindless elect being irresistibly regenerated. After the encounter, Paul is not immediately filled with the Spirit or declared saved. Instead, he is blinded, fasts, prays, and obeys explicit instructions (“Rise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do”), demonstrating conscious submission rather than irresistible transformation. Only after this obedient response does Ananias lay hands on him, Paul regains sight, is baptized, and receives the Spirit—showing a clear sequence of divine initiative followed by human response BEFORE being saved. Paul later interprets this moment not as an irresistible act imposed upon him, but as a vision he did not disobey (Acts 26:19), framing his conversion as a synergistic cooperation with grace rather than monergistic regeneration.
FreeInChrist
Active Member
brightfame52
Active Member
Gods Grace is Gods Power in action, and men cannot resist almighty power !
Eph.1:19,20,3:20
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places
Eph 3:7,20
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
Phil 3:21
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
Rom 5:21
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Eph.1:19,20,3:20
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places
Eph 3:7,20
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
Phil 3:21
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
Rom 5:21
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
God's power is irresistable in and itself but that doesn't mean God didn't prefer libertarian free will.
Many did resist God.
Acts 7:51 (KJV) Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
