Correct, Yet he imagines they can be Christ's sheep even though they do not believe
Irresistible Grace
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Selah
Active Member
Really? Ya sure?
brightfame52
Active Member
The already condemned cant believe and will never believe because the law still condemns them.
brightfame52
Active Member
Grace brings Faith, for we believe through Grace Acts 18:27
27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:
Through here dia means because of, they or them which believe because of grace, grace is irresistible in causing one to believe
civic
Active Member
Nope you like everyone else were a child of the devil , a child of wrath just like the rest. See Ephesians 2 and 1 John
brightfame52
Active Member
Anyone Christ didnt die for, like the non elect, they are bound to and condemned by the law and cant believe in Jesus, and why should they, He wasnt their Surety, He didnt obey and keep the Law of God for them in its precepts and penalty.
civic
Active Member
Nope Ephesians 2 declares they were children of wrath just like the rest.
You stand corrected once again.
Ephesians 2
As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2;in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.
Johann
Active Member
Johann
Active Member
Grace does bring faith but not irresistibly
2 Thessalonians 2:10 (NASB95) — 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
Yep
He believes they were unconditionally made sheep from before the foundation of the world
Selah
Active Member
Yes; I remember now. I don’t hold with the unconditional thing because it clearly says in the book of Romans:
Romans 8:28 (NKJV) And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to [His] purpose.
Selah
Active Member
Yes, even Paul by nature was deserving of God’s wrath. On that Damascus road, he was set on persecuting Christians. ….but after being struck down by God, the Spirit of God changed Paul’s direction and he was told what he must do.
Acts 9:3-6 (NKJV) 3 As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. 4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?” 5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?” Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It [is] hard for you to kick against the goads.” 6 So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?” Then the Lord [said] to him, “Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”
brightfame52
Active Member
The elect were children of wrath BY Nature! Meaning they are naturally just as much in themselves worthy of wrath. They were never condemned by the Law however because of the death of Christ for them, it made them dead the law Rom 7:4
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
That means the law cant condemn them, it has no power to because Christ death for them stripped it of its condemning power, He took it upon Himself in their stead.
But the non elect are still condemn by the law since Christ wasnt their Surety. BTW the elect, while by nature worthy of wrath from God, are never under Gods wrath, for He is reconciled to them by the Death of Christ Rom 5:10
brightfame52
Active Member
Thats the elect duh
brightfame52
Active Member
Yes its saving Grace through Jesus Christ, its irresistibly reign from Christ, to say otherwise is an attack on Christ Mediatorial Reign from His Throne Rom 5:21
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by[dia] Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rather, they are enslaved by their sins so they can't repent and believe and, after repudiating HIM as a false god and not their saviour from sin, they are condemned as unforgivable...
Those believers who sin are forgivable though enslaved hence not condemned.
ImCo,
Faith or the lack of faith comes before election and condemnation.
civic
Active Member
@TedT
John 3:16
16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:36
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life;
John 5:24
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
John 6:47
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
1 Timothy 2:3-4
This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, / who wants everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth
hope this helps !!!
civic
Active Member
God reaches out to all in grace but man resists God and chooses not to believe
1-Matthew 22:3
And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
2-Matthew 23:37
“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.
3-Luke 19:41
And when he drew nigh, he saw the city and wept over it,
4-Galatians 5:4-7
You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love. You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?
5-Hebrews 12:14-15
Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many.
6-2 Corinthians 6:1
As God’s partners, we beg you not to accept this marvelous gift of God’s kindness and then ignore it.
7-Hebrews 10:29
Just think how much worse the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God, and have treated the blood of the covenant, which made us holy, as if it were common and unholy, and have insulted and disdained the Holy Spirit who brings God’s mercy to us.
8-Hebrews 12:25
Be careful that you do not refuse to listen to the One who is speaking. For if the people of Israel did not escape when they refused to listen to Moses, the earthly messenger, we will certainly not escape if we reject the One who speaks to us from heaven!
9-Genesis 6:3: And the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.”
10-2 Chronicles 36:15-16: And the Lord God of their fathers sent warnings to them by His messengers, rising up early and sending them, because He had compassion on His people and on His dwelling place. But they mocked the messengers of God, despised His words, and scoffed at His prophets, until the wrath of the Lord arose against His people, till there was no remedy.
11-Proverbs 29:1: He who is often rebuked, and hardens his neck, Will suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy.
12-Isaiah 30:15 “For thus says the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel: ‘In returning and rest you shall be saved; In quiteness and confidence shall be your strength.’ But you would not.”
13-Isaiah 65:2“I have stretched out My hands all day long to a rebellious people, Who walk in a way that is not good, According to their own thoughts.”
14-Jeremiah 35:15 “I have also sent to you all My servants the prophets, rising up early and sending them, saying, ‘Turn now everyone from his evil way, amend your doings, and do not go after other gods to serve them; then you will dwell in the land which I have given to you and your fathers.’ But you have not inclined your ear, nor obeyed Me.”
15-Acts 7:51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.”
16-Acts 13:46: Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.”
17-Romans 10:21: But to Israel he says: “All day long I have stretched out My hands To a disobedient and contrary people.”
18- Matthew 23:37: Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I have wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.”
19- Hebrews 6:4-8
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
Here we have those receiving Gods grace sharing in the Holy Spirit of grace reject it. They have fallen away permanently from His grace and can no longer repent.
20- Psalm 78:17;40
But they continued to sin against Him, rebelling in the desert against the Most High. How often they disobeyed Him in the wilderness and grieved Him in the desert.
Adam who was “spiritually “dead hid from God in the garden and was able to communicate with God and understand Him. In the day you eat you shall surely die. So adam sinned and was spiritually dead and yet could communicate with God and understand God. “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.” (Genesis 3:10)
Luke 16:27-31 -“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
Above we see that Jesus declared the physical dead and spiritual dead can respond to spiritual things. The dead spiritual/physical dead man is pleading for his own brother’s life.
Jesus declares in John 5:25, “An hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.” Here Jesus says the spiritually dead can and will hear him
In Mark 2:17 Jesus said, “"It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners." The sick/spiritually dead can hear and understand Jesus- the sinner who is dead in their sins can understand.
In Romans 1 we read of the spiritually dead that they can perceive God and that Gods handiwork is self-evident to them and that the things of God are clearly seen by them so that they are without excuse. Romans 1:20- For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.”
conclusion: You see the doctrine of irresistible grace is unfounded and there are many unproven presuppositions built into Gods Sovereignty and mans condition and free will to choose or reject God. God does not force Himself on anyone for that by definition would be unloving, just as it would be for you or I to force another person to love you.
hope this helps !!!
1-Matthew 22:3
And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
2-Matthew 23:37
“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.
3-Luke 19:41
And when he drew nigh, he saw the city and wept over it,
4-Galatians 5:4-7
You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love. You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?
5-Hebrews 12:14-15
Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. 15 See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many.
6-2 Corinthians 6:1
As God’s partners, we beg you not to accept this marvelous gift of God’s kindness and then ignore it.
7-Hebrews 10:29
Just think how much worse the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God, and have treated the blood of the covenant, which made us holy, as if it were common and unholy, and have insulted and disdained the Holy Spirit who brings God’s mercy to us.
8-Hebrews 12:25
Be careful that you do not refuse to listen to the One who is speaking. For if the people of Israel did not escape when they refused to listen to Moses, the earthly messenger, we will certainly not escape if we reject the One who speaks to us from heaven!
9-Genesis 6:3: And the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.”
10-2 Chronicles 36:15-16: And the Lord God of their fathers sent warnings to them by His messengers, rising up early and sending them, because He had compassion on His people and on His dwelling place. But they mocked the messengers of God, despised His words, and scoffed at His prophets, until the wrath of the Lord arose against His people, till there was no remedy.
11-Proverbs 29:1: He who is often rebuked, and hardens his neck, Will suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy.
12-Isaiah 30:15 “For thus says the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel: ‘In returning and rest you shall be saved; In quiteness and confidence shall be your strength.’ But you would not.”
13-Isaiah 65:2“I have stretched out My hands all day long to a rebellious people, Who walk in a way that is not good, According to their own thoughts.”
14-Jeremiah 35:15 “I have also sent to you all My servants the prophets, rising up early and sending them, saying, ‘Turn now everyone from his evil way, amend your doings, and do not go after other gods to serve them; then you will dwell in the land which I have given to you and your fathers.’ But you have not inclined your ear, nor obeyed Me.”
15-Acts 7:51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.”
16-Acts 13:46: Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.”
17-Romans 10:21: But to Israel he says: “All day long I have stretched out My hands To a disobedient and contrary people.”
18- Matthew 23:37: Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I have wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.”
19- Hebrews 6:4-8
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
Here we have those receiving Gods grace sharing in the Holy Spirit of grace reject it. They have fallen away permanently from His grace and can no longer repent.
20- Psalm 78:17;40
But they continued to sin against Him, rebelling in the desert against the Most High. How often they disobeyed Him in the wilderness and grieved Him in the desert.
Adam who was “spiritually “dead hid from God in the garden and was able to communicate with God and understand Him. In the day you eat you shall surely die. So adam sinned and was spiritually dead and yet could communicate with God and understand God. “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.” (Genesis 3:10)
Luke 16:27-31 -“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
Above we see that Jesus declared the physical dead and spiritual dead can respond to spiritual things. The dead spiritual/physical dead man is pleading for his own brother’s life.
Jesus declares in John 5:25, “An hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.” Here Jesus says the spiritually dead can and will hear him
In Mark 2:17 Jesus said, “"It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners." The sick/spiritually dead can hear and understand Jesus- the sinner who is dead in their sins can understand.
In Romans 1 we read of the spiritually dead that they can perceive God and that Gods handiwork is self-evident to them and that the things of God are clearly seen by them so that they are without excuse. Romans 1:20- For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.”
conclusion: You see the doctrine of irresistible grace is unfounded and there are many unproven presuppositions built into Gods Sovereignty and mans condition and free will to choose or reject God. God does not force Himself on anyone for that by definition would be unloving, just as it would be for you or I to force another person to love you.
hope this helps !!!
Yet His sheep DO go into sin ie they leave His fold as His sheep to live in sin and as His sheep they follow idols, not Him, until grace is given them. The prodigal son is a family member first who chooses to leave the family and go live in Sin City.
To go astray into sin cannot imply some fault on the part of the Shepherd so it must imply some rebellion, some sin, against their divine Shepherd.
The demonic reprobate have never joined His family, fold, kingdom, by faith so they are condemned already.
