Irresistible Grace

[TomL]

According to you, you not the standard

According to me

you ignored the scripture

John 12:47 (KJV 1900) — 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

According to me

you ignored the scripture

John 12:47 (KJV 1900) — 47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

How about some context?

44 Then Jesus cried out, “Whoever believes in me does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. 45 The one who looks at me is seeing the one who sent me. 46 I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.

47 “If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day. 49 For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken. 50 I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.”

 

[TomL]

How about some context?

44 Then Jesus cried out, “Whoever believes in me does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. 45 The one who looks at me is seeing the one who sent me. 46 I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.

47 “If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day. 49 For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken. 50 I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.”

And???

Does nothing to change the fact, any who do not believe are a part of the world Christ came to save

 

[Biblelesson]

I believe total inability is a false doctrine. There are too many scriptures which either show or presume man has the ability to believe

John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

God blinded men to prevent their belief. Why would God blind someone who had no ability to see?

Why prevent from believing those who had no capacity for belief

Luke notes had men not grown hardened they could have believed

Acts 28:27 (KJV 1900) — 27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Jesus clearly states he hides truth for some as otherwise they would repent and be forgiven

Mark 4:10–12 (ESV) — 10 And when he was alone, those around him with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11 And he said to them, “To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that “ ‘they may indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven.’ ”



unregenerate men are shown to receive the word with joy and believe

Luke 8:13 (KJV 1900) — 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Mat 11:21-24 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. 23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.



The adversary steals the word away so men will not believe

Luke 8:11–12 (KJV 1900) — 11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

What need is there to steal away a word which cannot be believed?

John 1:6–7 (KJV 1900) — 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

John the apostle believes the testimony of John the Baptist is sufficient for faith.

John 5:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

John 4:39 (KJV 1900) — 39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

How much exegesis is needed to see men believed based upon the woman's testimony

John 17:20 (KJV 1900) — 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

men will be able to believe based on the apostle's testimony

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

The reading of scripture is sufficient for belief

2 Timothy 3:15 (NIV) — 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 3:4–11 (NIV) — 4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus. 7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

As is the preaching of it.

Romans 10:10–17 (KJV 1900) — 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Acts 28:23–24 (KJV 1900) — 23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

examine

Deuteronomy 30:11–19 (KJV 1900) — 11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. 15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; 16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. 17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; 18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

I can see what you're saying and that you've done your homework but I also believe that it goes both ways. It's basically a matter of how one interprets the scriptures. And then of course how they fit into our pet Doctrine. Thanks for taking the time to clarify the reasons for what you believe. And thanks for answering my questions.

 

[TomL]

I can see what you're saying and that you've done your homework but I also believe that it goes both ways. It's basically a matter of how one interprets the scriptures. And then of course how they fit into our pet Doctrine. Thanks for taking the time to clarify the reasons for what you believe. And thanks for answering my questions.

You are welcome

 

[brightfame52]

@TomL

John 12:40 (KJV 1900) — 40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

All men are born totally depraved and cannot believe in Christ Jn 6:44

Those whom God hardens is a Judgment against them, not to convert them, He is against their conversion, He is against healing them.

Christ came not to open their eyes to see, but to make them blind, meaning confirm them in their blindness Jn 9:39

39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
He is speaking of the reprobate jews who thought they could see, He came to confirm them in their spiritual blindness
Also, Jesus could not have died for them in Jn 12:40 because if He did, they would have been healed, because those He died for are healed 1 Pet 2:24
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
Thats the same greek word for healed in Jn 12:40 iaomai:

1. To cure, heal
2. to make whole
   1. to free from errors and sins, to bring about (one's) salvation

So they were never in Gods Salvation purpose to heal them by the stripes/death of Christ.
They are the vessles of wrath being fitted for destruction, not Salvation.
God either shows dead depraved sinners Mercy or He hardens them Rom 9:18

Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

 

[Biblelesson]

I like the sound of total inability, It has a much nicer ring to it than total depravity.

This doctrine of Total Inability, which declares that men are dead in sin, does not mean that all men are equally bad, nor that any man is as bad as he could be, nor that any one is entirely destitute of virtue, nor that human nature is evil in itself, nor that man‘s spirit is inactive, and much less does it mean that the body Is dead. What it does mean is that since the fail man rests under the curse of sin, that he is actuated by wrong principles, and that he is wholly unable to love God or to do anything meriting salvation. His corruption is extensive but not necessarily intensive.

Loraine Boettner

 

[john]

Christ only died for the Sheep Jn 10 the rest of mankind is the children of the wicked one, the tares whom Christ didnt die for Matt 13:38

CHRIST died for all romans 5: 6For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.


sheep are saved people

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

CHRIST died for all romans 5: 6For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.


sheep are saved people

Wrong.

7 So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and [a]have it abundantly.

11 “I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. 12 He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. 13 He flees because he is a hired hand and is not concerned about the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

I am the door; if anyone [sheep] enters through me, he WILL be saved.

I have other sheep, and they WILL hear My voice, and they will become...

These are not saved people, yet. They will be, because they are His sheep and will hear His voice.

 

[praise_yeshua]

I like the sound of total inability, It has a much nicer ring to it than total depravity.

This doctrine of Total Inability, which declares that men are dead in sin, does not mean that all men are equally bad, nor that any man is as bad as he could be, nor that any one is entirely destitute of virtue, nor that human nature is evil in itself, nor that man‘s spirit is inactive, and much less does it mean that the body Is dead. What it does mean is that since the fail man rests under the curse of sin, that he is actuated by wrong principles, and that he is wholly unable to love God or to do anything meriting salvation. His corruption is extensive but not necessarily intensive.

Loraine Boettner

The Gospel enables. It is information that gives understanding. There is no such thing as total inability. Besides, total depravity includes the context of inability. This is one of my primary issues with Total Depravity. God has given the Gospel to save men. If what you say is true, the Gospel means nothing. God would just "poof" save some. Which is what is actually being taught here.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Wrong.

7 So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and [a]have it abundantly.

11 “I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. 12 He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. 13 He flees because he is a hired hand and is not concerned about the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

I am the door; if anyone [sheep] enters through me, he WILL be saved.

I have other sheep, and they WILL hear My voice, and they will become...

These are not saved people, yet. They will be, because they are His sheep and will hear His voice.

There are many "ifs" throughout those verses. Do you have a reading comprehension issue? If is indeterminate. There is only one person certain in these verses. Christ.

Anyone is anyone. You've changed it to sheep. Why are you changing the Scriptures?

 

[TomL]

@TomL




All men are born totally depraved and cannot believe in Christ Jn 6:44

Those whom God hardens is a Judgment against them, not to convert them, He is against their conversion, He is against healing them.

Christ came not to open their eyes to see, but to make them blind, meaning confirm them in their blindness Jn 9:39

39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
He is speaking of the reprobate jews who thought they could see, He came to confirm them in their spiritual blindness
Also, Jesus could not have died for them in Jn 12:40 because if He did, they would have been healed, because those He died for are healed 1 Pet 2:24
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
Thats the same greek word for healed in Jn 12:40 iaomai:

1. To cure, heal
2. to make whole
   1. to free from errors and sins, to bring about (one's) salvation

So they were never in Gods Salvation purpose to heal them by the stripes/death of Christ.
They are the vessles of wrath being fitted for destruction, not Salvation.
God either shows dead depraved sinners Mercy or He hardens them Rom 9:18

Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

You totally missed the point

Your theology holds man is born in a state where he cannot believe unless regenerated.

What need therefore is hardening to prevent belief if that were true?

That God had to employ hardening to prevent belief shows your doctrine is false.

 

[john]

Wrong.

soooo you have a different Bible than i have ? your going against what paul wrote on grace which backs up Christ teaching ..i see you have your own man made doctrine

 

[brightfame52]

CHRIST died for all romans 5: 6For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.


sheep are saved people

That passage is about the elect, they are by nature ungodly, and they will be saved and effectually called by Grace

 

[brightfame52]

@TomL

You totally missed the point

Obviously you did, and I took time to explain, dont expect me to do that often for you

 

[Biblelesson]

The Gospel enables. It is information that gives understanding. There is no such thing as total inability. Besides, total depravity includes the context of inability. This is one of my primary issues with Total Depravity. God has given the Gospel to save men. If what you say is true, the Gospel means nothing. God would just "poof" save some. Which is what is actually being taught here.

But even if our Gospel (the glad tidings) also be hidden (obscured and covered up with a veil that hinders the knowledge of God), it is hidden [only] to those who are perishing and obscured [only] to those who are spiritually dying and veiled [only] to those who are lost.
4 For the god of this world has blinded the unbelievers’ minds [that they should not discern the truth], preventing them from seeing the illuminating light of the Gospel of the glory of Christ (the Messiah), Who is the Image and Likeness of God.
2 Corinthians 4:3–4


Apparently the Bible teaches That some do you have the inability to believe the gospel, the good news about Jesus. Those who are perishing are the ones who will not come to God by faith in Christ. They remain hardened in their sin, unforgiven by God. Their current destiny is eternal death and separation from God. They are truly dying and unable to understand even the clearest teaching about God's glory. They have a total inability to come.

Paul in Romans 1:16 declares the Gospel to be “the power of God unto salvation to every one that believes.” This must mean that apart from the power of God in the Gospel, no one has strength on his own to turn to God. And the ones that believe are the ones that God chose, The Elect. That is why they have the power to turn to God because God chose them and enabled them to come to Him.

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

There are many "ifs" throughout those verses. Do you have a reading comprehension issue? If is indeterminate. There is only one person certain in these verses. Christ.

Anyone is anyone. You've changed it to sheep. Why are you changing the Scriptures?

7 So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved,

"I am the door of the sheep" - "If anyone [sheep] enters through me [door]"

There are no "ifs" here:

14 I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

 

[civic]

The Gospel enables. It is information that gives understanding. There is no such thing as total inability. Besides, total depravity includes the context of inability. This is one of my primary issues with Total Depravity. God has given the Gospel to save men. If what you say is true, the Gospel means nothing. God would just "poof" save some. Which is what is actually being taught here.

Exactly !

 

[civic]

7 So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved,

"I am the door of the sheep" - "If anyone [sheep] enters through me [door]"

There are no "ifs" here:

14 I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

judas was a sheep.

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

But even if our Gospel (the glad tidings) also be hidden (obscured and covered up with a veil that hinders the knowledge of God), it is hidden [only] to those who are perishing and obscured [only] to those who are spiritually dying and veiled [only] to those who are lost.
4 For the god of this world has blinded the unbelievers’ minds [that they should not discern the truth], preventing them from seeing the illuminating light of the Gospel of the glory of Christ (the Messiah), Who is the Image and Likeness of God.
2 Corinthians 4:3–4


Apparently the Bible teaches That some do you have the inability to believe the gospel, the good news about Jesus. Those who are perishing are the ones who will not come to God by faith in Christ. They remain hardened in their sin, unforgiven by God. Their current destiny is eternal death and separation from God. They are truly dying and unable to understand even the clearest teaching about God's glory. They have a total inability to come.

Paul in Romans 1:16 declares the Gospel to be “the power of God unto salvation to every one that believes.” This must mean that apart from the power of God in the Gospel, no one has strength on his own to turn to God. And the ones that believe are the ones that God chose, The Elect. That is why they have the power to turn to God because God chose them and enabled them to come to Him.

That is of their own choosing by rejecting God over time, then God hardens them in that condition permanently- the text says 3 different time that God gave them over to a depraved mind, a reprobate mind.

cause- refusing to believe, obey and follow God, living in sin and over a long period of time
effect- God gives them over to their own rebellion permanently, a reprobate mind.

hope this helps !!!