In Calvinism... where is the love?

Not to agree with your sequence there, but even if it is so, how does not knowing who is and who is not elect present a problem for Calvinism? Are we not to share the Gospel with everyone? Have you not noticed that God's word never returns void, but accomplishes everything for which it is sent? Have you not seen how God uses the truth to harden and blind, as well as to open eyes and soften?

The Gnostic Gospel of Calvinism in the Westminster Confession of Faith


Discussing the Gospel according to Calvinism, showing what they believe in the Westminster Confession of Faith to prove it teaches a false gnostic gospel. We also hear briefly from Leighton Flowers of Soteriology 101 and Alana L discuss whether or not Calvinist believe the true Gospel of Jesus Christ while at the same time believe the 5 points of Calvinism known as the Doctrines of Grace or TULIP. Is that even possible?

How does not knowing who is and who is not elect present a problem for Calvinism in witnessing? That's pretty self-explanatory. Imagine a is coming up to you and telling you how much God loves you but only if you're one of the elect. Then you proceed To tell them about Jacob and Esau. Make sure you ask them if they have any Edomites in their bloodline.

 
(Edit) This isn't a new problem.

Many false prophets will arise and mislead many. Because of the multiplication of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold. But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved. (Matthew 24:12)

Revelation Chapter 2
2 “To the angel of the church in Ephesus write:

These are the words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand and walks among the seven golden lampstands. 2 I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false. 3 You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary.

4 Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first. 5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. 6 But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

7 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.
 
Last edited:
I would imagine if you're not one of the elect God would seem rather hateful. The Calvinist teaches that God does the electing or choosing and that it is totally unconditional on man’s part. However, the Bible tells us how election Really works. It's conditional. Man must choose God’s way of salvation by believing the truth and trusting Christ as Savior.
 
I would imagine if you're not one of the elect God would seem rather hateful. The Calvinist teaches that God does the electing or choosing and that it is totally unconditional on man’s part. However, the Bible tells us how election Really works. It's conditional. Man must choose God’s way of salvation by believing the truth and trusting Christ as Savior.
Yes, even the parables illustrate people who are elected to attend have a choice to refuse.
 
This isn't an old issue.

Many false prophets will arise and mislead many. Because of the multiplication of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold. But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved. (Matthew 24:12)

Revelation Chapter 2
2 “To the angel of the church in Ephesus write:

These are the words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand and walks among the seven golden lampstands. 2 I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked people, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false. 3 You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary.

4 Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first. 5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. 6 But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

7 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.
Yes, an old issue for us old Saints;)
 
Calvinism is the litigator religion, because of the common rebuttals of calvinism and what is commonly lacking in calvinistic bible application: The bible is treated as a legal contract that can order God around and demand salvation.

By extension, when an objection is raised against calvinism, a litigator appears to state this is not what is taught by calvinism. However, people who have been on the business end of calvinist application know this is incorrect, but it is a very exhausting affair.

People tend to just walk away and end the conversation lending to the false impression that the litigator actually won the argument. However, because of such events the mythology of calvinism continues to grow, perhaps the forshadowed end is "fate?"
 

The Gnostic Gospel of Calvinism in the Westminster Confession of Faith


How does not knowing who is and who is not elect present a problem for Calvinism in witnessing? That's pretty self-explanatory. Imagine a Calvin is coming up to you and telling you how much God loves you but only if you're one of the elect. Then you proceed To tell them about Jacob and Esau. Make sure you ask them if they have any Edomites in their bloodline.

What makes you think that is Calvinism's Gospel? That sounds like a construction someone would come up with. I talk to people about God all the time, and I start them with default fact. God made the world and everything in it. God is in charge. Not man. Learn who God is. Then learn why he made man.
 
What makes you think that is Calvinism's Gospel? That sounds like a construction someone would come up with. I talk to people about God all the time, and I start them with default fact. God made the world and everything in it. God is in charge. Not man. Learn who God is. Then learn why he made man.

They just like to try to discredit Calvinism's gospel by associating it with Gnosticism. We could do the same by associating Arminianism with Pelagian or semi-Pelagianism.
 
They just like to try to discredit Calvinism's gospel by associating it with Gnosticism. We could do the same by associating Arminianism with Pelagian or semi-Pelagianism.
Except I can quote several reformed theologians who agree Calvin got most of his doctrines from Augustine as did Luther. And history proves where Augustine got his beliefs from since he was a gnostic and married it with christianity.

Augustine of Hippo (354–430) converted to Christianity from Manichaeism in the year 387. This was shortly after the Roman emperor Theodosius I had issued a decree of death for all Manichaean monks in 382 and shortly before he declared Christianity to be the only legitimate religion for the Roman Empire in 391.

AUGUSTINE AND MANICHAEISM

(by Gillian Clark, from the introduction to her Cambridge Latin edition of Confessions, Books I-IV)

Augustine encountered Manichaean teaching soon after the impact of the Hortensius, and remained an adherent for nine years. His subsequent attacks on Manichaeism are a major source of information, but of course they are polemic against the system, not exposition of it. In the Confessions he is concerned with the effect of Manichaeism on his own relationship with God. Instead of explaining what he believed as a Manichaean and why, he denounces the aspects of his belief which, in the light of Platonist philosophy and the preaching of Ambrose, he had come to see as its major confusions. But it is now possible to give a general account of western Manichaeism which does not depend chiefly on Christian polemic... Several Manichaean texts have been discovered this century: the Coptic texts from Medinet Medi in the Fayyum include a book of psalms, and the Greek �Mani codex�, a tiny papyrus volume, is an anthology on the birth and early life of Mani.

Mani, born in 216 in southern Mesopotamia, was brought up in an ascetic Judaeo-Christian sect which he left in his mid-twenties. He believed himself to be the Paraclete, the �Advocate� who, as Jesus promised to his followers (John 14:26), would lead them into all truth. Revelations from his �divine twin� taught him the doctrines and the organisation of Manichaeism, and instructed him to travel and preach. His teaching spread eastward and westward, adapting to existing religious beliefs and practices: some of the most important Manichaean texts, written in various Central Asian languages, were found at Turfan in China. In the Roman empire, Manichaeism was regarded by Christians as heretical and by the state as a dangerous import from the rival power, Persia (Iran). In Persia there was religious toleration until the death of Shapur I (c. 272), but under his successor Zoroastrianism became the most influential religion, and Mani was imprisoned and died after torture. His death was commemorated in the festival of the Bema, which western Manichaeans celebrated rather than Easter.

Mani�s claim to a new revelation was not a new phenomenon in the west. Jesus had told his followers (John 16:12-13) �I still have many things to tell you, but you cannot handle them now. But when the spirit of truth comes, he will lead you into all truth.� He had said that the Paraclete was �the spirit of truth which the world cannot receive, because it neither sees nor knows it; but you know it, because it remains with you and is in you� (John 14:17). Several religious leaders had convinced their followers that they had the truth, the gnosis (knowledge), which most people could not see. The �knowledge� took the form of a deeper understanding of what is really happening in human lives. Gnostics believed that the physical world is of no value: it is the temporary, illusory stage for a struggle of spiritual powers, and all that matters is the release of the divine spirit within us from the contamination of the material body and its return to its true home. They produced complex mythologies of angels and demons to explain the workings of the universe. They refused to accept the affirmation of Genesis that God made the world, �and God saw all the things that God had made, and they were very good� (Genesis 1:31). Consequently, they also refused to accept the Incarnation, the union of God and human in a human body, and taught that Christ was a divine spirit in the appearance of a human body, and that his death on the cross was an appearance of death.

Gnosticism recurs through the history of Christianity, but Gnostic sects tended to fragment. Mani combined impressive teaching, reinforced by hymns and splendidly produced books, with effective organisation. He taught that Good and Evil are equal powers, and both have always existed. Each has a kingdom, Good the kingdom of Light and Evil the kingdom of Darkness. Darkness invaded Light, and fragments of light are still entrapped in the darkness; this world was created in order to free them. Jesus of Light, who is pure spirit, shows humans how the light may be freed, and the Suffering Jesus is the Light which is entrapped in this world. The human soul is a fragment of Light which has fallen from its home, the kingdom of heaven, and is trapped in the body. It can escape by disciplining the body and with the help of saving powers.

There were two kinds of Manichaeans, the Elect Saints and the Hearers. The Elect, who formed the nucleus of a Manichaean �cell�, were committed to a missionary life of poverty and celibacy. They were strict vegetarians, drank no wine, and were forbidden even to harvest or prepare food, because Mani had a revelation that it is a kind of murder to damage plants by harvesting. The sect survived because the Hearers incurred the sin of preparing food, and were released from sin by the prayers of the Elect who ate it: Mani taught that fragments of the divine which were trapped in plants could be released when ingested by the pure body of the Elect. The Hearers were also allowed a wife or concubine, but were taught to avoid procreation because it entraps more divine spirits in matter. Manichaean cells, like Christian churches, were kept in touch with one another by a hierarchy analogous to the Christian clergy, so when Augustine left Carthage for Rome he was able to stay with another Hearer and meet some of the Elect (5.10.18-19).

Manichaeism offered Augustine a way to accommodate his conflicts: he could pursue his career, and retain his partner, while purging his sins through his service to the pure Elect (4.1.1); and he could blame those sins on his lower, alien nature, which like the material world had been made by the power of evil, but which his true self would eventually shed (5.10.18). Manichaeism also responded to his need, instilled by his childhood, for the name of Christ, and his initial distaste for the Christian scriptures (3.4.8-6.10). He could regard the Bible as a crude and contaminated attempt at the truth, whereas the Manichaean scriptures offered both the name of Christ and what seemed to be a profound understanding of the universe and of human life (3.6.10).

hope this helps!!!
 
Last edited:
What makes you think that is Calvinism's Gospel? That sounds like a construction someone would come up with. I talk to people about God all the time, and I start them with default fact. God made the world and everything in it. God is in charge. Not man. Learn who God is. Then learn why he made man.
I think you tell them about a god. Not the God that Christians worship.

And how was your success rate, how many people that you've witnessed to accepted Christ? Which should be quite a large number since you do it all the time. Did you tell them how much God loves them, that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever shall believe in him shall have eternal life? Did you share that love?

Or did you just tell them that God made the world and everything in it. And that you're lucky that he gave you air to breathe. And if you're not one of the elect... sorry Charlie, but no love for you. Because you know God is in charge. I know, I know Even though the Bible tells us in 2 Peter 3:9, which reads, “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance” Did you tell them...That's not what actually happens Because Calvinism tells us that only if you're one of God's elect can you come to repentance and choose to Believe in Jesus.

And by the way I know who God is and I know why he made man. I also know you're not my teacher.

The Bible is clear that the truth is what sets us free "And you will know the Truth, and the Truth will set you free." John 8:32

— and that includes any bondage that comes attached to a false idea of who God is and what His character is that Calvinist try to get us to believe.

Don't drink the Kool-Aid
 
The Way of Love
In every act and thought of God there is love. Every command he ever uttered, every law he ordained, every precept he laid down—anything and everything that ever came from God is an expression of his infinite love. It is more the nature of God to love than for the sun to give light. The sun may ultimately become cold and dark, but God’s love will never dim or fade.

Some may find it hard to understand why God loves. Multitudes have asked, “Does God love me?” There is nothing the devil would have you doubt more than the fact that God loves you. You can believe in God and be lost. You can believe in the blood, the Bible, and the Holy Spirit; but unless you believe in the love of God you will go on in sin and finally land in torment where there is no love.

When someone asks, “Why does God love?” we counter by asking, “Why does the sunshine?” The sun shines because it is light and cannot help itself. God is love and cannot do otherwise than love. The clouds may obscure the sun for a while and leave us in semidarkness, but above the clouds the sun still shines. Just so, sin may separate us from God, but God does not change in his eternal love. Let the sin be removed by confession and forgiveness and we will find God still there and still loving.

It is his very nature to love. Though the tides may cease their ebb and flow, the sun set to rise no more, the seasons no longer tell of seedtime and harvest, the rains refuse to fall or the sun to shine, though a mother despise her own offspring, and all nature go berserk; God will still love. He is powerless to do otherwise. God is love. Man may hide from the love of God as a mole burrow down into the subterranean darkness, but God’s love continues just the same.

The Way of Love—Harold W. Boyer
 
I think you tell them about a god. Not the God that Christians worship.

And how was your success rate, how many people that you've witnessed to accepted Christ? Which should be quite a large number since you do it all the time. Did you tell them how much God loves them, that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever shall believe in him shall have eternal life? Did you share that love?

Or did you just tell them that God made the world and everything in it. And that you're lucky that he gave you air to breathe. And if you're not one of the elect... sorry Charlie, but no love for you. Because you know God is in charge. I know, I know Even though the Bible tells us in 2 Peter 3:9, which reads, “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance” Did you tell them...That's not what actually happens Because Calvinism tells us that only if you're one of God's elect can you come to repentance and choose to Believe in Jesus.

And by the way I know who God is and I know why he made man. I also know you're not my teacher.

The Bible is clear that the truth is what sets us free "And you will know the Truth, and the Truth will set you free." John 8:32

— and that includes any bondage that comes attached to a false idea of who God is and what His character is that Calvinist try to get us to believe.

Don't drink the Kool-Aid
Interesting you would gauge success in numbers. Have you ever done a follow-up on how many who walked forward in a revival meeting, "stuck with it"?

Your sarcasm and antagonism doesn't help your argument.

Indeed you are right that the truth will set you free. But you, like myself, will be measured by your own standard.

You would do well also, not to consider all Calvinists of the same cloth. You don't seem to know that most (at least American) denominations are descended from the Reformation.
 
Interesting you would gauge success in numbers. Have you ever done a follow-up on how many who walked forward in a revival meeting, "stuck with it"?

Your sarcasm and antagonism doesn't help your argument.

Indeed you are right that the truth will set you free. But you, like myself, will be measured by your own standard.

You would do well also, not to consider all Calvinists of the same cloth. You don't seem to know that most (at least American) denominations are descended from the Reformation.
Yes it is very interesting, amazing actually the way Calvinist go all high and mighty when you pull their cover. It reminds me of that line they all use "You just don't understand Calvinism" when confronted with the inconsistencies of their man-made doctrines. If I were to consider what kind of Cloth Calvinist's were cut from the term filthy rags comes to mind.
 
Yes it is very interesting, amazing actually the way Calvinist go all high and mighty when you pull their cover. It reminds me of that line they all use "You just don't understand Calvinism" when confronted with the inconsistencies of their man-made doctrines. If I were to consider what kind of Cloth Calvinist s were cut from the term filthy rags comes to mind.
What kind of rag are you?
 
I bet it's pretty filthy right?
Is this what you want to talk about?


“All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away” (Isaiah 64:6).

I think we could make a good thread here on the Forum out of it .
 
Is this what you want to talk about?


“All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away” (Isaiah 64:6).

I think we could make a good thread here on the Forum out of it .
Let's go for it. I'll start it off as soon as I find a good spot for it.
 
Back
Top Bottom