I wish I were a Unitarian...

[Diserner]

So i could discover for the first time the awe and wonder of how God became a man to redeem me!

 

[Matthias]

I’m a unitarian. While many unitarians believe that God became man, many don’t. I’m one that doesn’t.

 

[Diserner]

I’m a unitarian. While many unitarians believe that God became man, many don’t. I’m one that doesn’t.

Right, it's a fairly broad term.

Well, I envy the exciting revelation that awaits you if you truly keep pursuing the Lord.

 

[Matthias]

Right, it's a fairly broad term.

Well, I envy the exciting revelation that awaits you if you truly keep pursuing the Lord.

I appreciate the kind sentiment you expressed. Just as an aside, I was raised trinitarian.

I’m open to the possibility that I might have missed something. If you would like to elaborate on the subject, I’m listening.

 

[Diserner]

I appreciate the kind sentiment you expressed. Just as an aside, I was raised trinitarian.

I’m open to the possibility that I might have missed something. If you would like to elaborate on the subject, I’m listening.

Nah, you can't argue away spiritual blindness that's not a possibility for either of us.

False doctrines are attributed to supernatural origin in Scripture.


I would however, be willing to fast and pray together as we meditate on verses concerning Christ and the Spirit and their Deity and Person-hood as we beseech God to remove the blinding forces in our lives so that we might be loosed to see what these verses are saying to us.

See, God is a rewarder of them who diligently seek him, not those who argue the hardest on the Internet.

Everyone claims to be sincere until the rubber meets the road, and we do something that doesn't please our prideful intellectual efforts.

I've not had anyone take me up on it so far, so don't worry about me being let down hard, lol.

 

[Matthias]

Nah, you can't argue away spiritual blindness that's not a possibility for either of us.

False doctrines are attributed to supernatural origin in Scripture.


I would however, be willing to fast and pray together as we meditate on verses concerning Christ and the Spirit and their Deity and Person-hood as we beseech God to remove the blinding forces in our lives so that we might be loosed to see what these verses are saying to us.

See, God is a rewarder of them who diligently seek him, not those who argue the hardest on the Internet.

Everyone claims to be sincere until the rubber meets the road, and we do something that doesn't please our prideful intellectual efforts.

I've not had anyone take me up on it so far, so don't worry about me being let down hard, lol.

Thanks. I’ll gladly take you up on your offer. I’d like to take this opportunity to encourage others to do so, too.

 

[Fred]

I’m open to the possibility that I might have missed something. If you would like to elaborate on the subject, I’m listening.

In Unitarianism the Father is the Creator and Jesus is a creature - no matter how highly exalted, He (Jesus) is still a created being in Unitarianism.

Why then in quite a few places in the New Testament the authors don't clearly distinguish as to whether or not they are referring to the Father (the Creator) or to the Lord Jesus (the creature in Unitarianism)?
There is a vast difference between the Creator and the creature.

I'm thinking about the use of "Lord" and other appellations ('Shepherd and Bishop' in 1 Peter 2:25; 'the Holy One' in 1 John 2:20, etc.) as well as pronouns (He, His, Him) -this applies in many passages in the NT, but in the First Book of John there are numerous examples, especially for such a short book.

Even many Unitarians don't agree with one another in making this vital distinction.
It would take a long time to cite every passage, but I think you know what I mean. If necessary, I could do it.

 

[Matthias]

In Unitarianism the Father is the Creator and Jesus is a creature - no matter how highly exalted, He (Jesus) is still a created being in Unitarianism.

Not in all branches of unitarianism. It is, however, in mine.

Why then in quite a few places in the New Testament the authors don't clearly distinguish as to whether or not they are referring to the Father (the Creator) or to the Lord Jesus (the creature in Unitarianism)?

Agency.

There is a vast difference between the Creator and the creature.

Agreed.

I'm thinking about the use of "Lord" and other appellations ('Shepherd and Bishop' in 1 Peter 2:25; "the Holy One" in 1 John 2:20, etc.) as well as pronouns (He, His, Him) -this applies in many passages in the NT, but in the First Book of John there are numerous examples.

Do you acknowledge a difference between the Hebrew words adonai and adoni?

 

[Fred]

Agency.

An Agent isn't necessary when a NT author can easily and clearly refer to the Father instead of Jesus.

Do you acknowledge a difference between the Hebrew words adonai and adoni?

That's why I wrote "New Testament" in my previous post.

 

[Diserner]

Thanks. I’ll gladly take you up on your offer. I’d like to take this opportunity to encourage others to do so, too.

That's awesome.

I know the Lord will do a new work in both of us, even if we don't fully enter the truth yet.

I know fasting is pretty heavy for a lot of people and I don't want to put anything that feels too heavy.

I am going to do a 3 day water only fast, reading these specific chapters slowly and prayerfully each day:

1. John 1
2. John 14
3. Colossians 1

From these alone I think we can derive many essential truths concerning the Trinity.

I will pray these three things for both of us:

1. A deeper revelation of who Christ is.
2. A deeper revelation of who the Holy Spirit is.
3. A freedom from any blinding evil forces.

If you want to change the format at all, exact days don't have to be identical, I don't want to be legalistic about it, but this is my simple goal.


Also, I want to be clear about where I am currently and I already have a lot of posts on this forum you can read.

Here is a critical one: https://berean-apologetics.communit...e-nature-of-christology-by-a-trinitarian.196/


And here are my 12 reasons I believe Jesus is God:

1. A mere creation cannot have eternally co-existed with God.

2. A mere creation cannot have co-created the world.

3. A mere creation cannot be enough to atone for an infinite crime against holiness.

4. A mere creation cannot contain the principle of life itself inside it.

5. A mere creation cannot destroy the power of death in itself.

6. A mere creation cannot receive praise and devotion from every created thing.

7. A mere creation cannot hold all authority in heaven and earth.

8. A mere creation would have admonitions not to idolize or worship it.

9. A mere creation cannot potentially directly live inside of all human beings.

10. A mere creation would not ever be directly associated with anything divine.

11. A mere creation cannot demand that nothing be loved more than it as it would be commanding idolatry.

12. A mere creation cannot call itself the only absolute way and truth.

At the point you are willing to accept all 12 things, it is virtually indistinguishable for me from God anyway, and Jesus is God to you whether you use the term "God" or not. The Father is just an order of rank above Jesus with the same attributes and this corresponds to Trinitarian theology.

I believe we can find ample Scriptural evidence to support the above 12 points in both Paul and the rest of Scripture. Also when certain verses began to make me feel unsure of this, I have prayed about this directly to God for many years and received personal confirmation that this is the truth.

So the question may well then be asked, "Why isn't it stated even more clearly?" That's a good questions and I give a couple of reasons.

1. It is not a doctrine essential to salvation. It is very clear the 12 disciples during Christ's earthly minister did not at all fully realize who he was, and simply had a bare faith that he was a Savior, yet Jesus clearly says they were currently saved with their names written in heaven.

2. Doctrines are not required to be written out in the clearest way possible, but only to be written out in an essentially deducible way. We know the Bible condemns pedophilia without a verse that says "Thou shalt not molest children."

3. It is the "glory of kings to search out a matter" and all doctrine doesn't come by intellectually parsing the words of Scripture, but by direct revelation from God, as Jesus said "flesh and blood did not reveal this to you Peter."

In light of this, I invite anyone to continue on their journey with a sincere heart towards God and fervent prayer, and am confident that in the end, if we continue and do not quit with a true humble and teachable heart, the Spirit of God will always eventually get us to true beliefs.

 

[Matthias]

An Agent isn't necessary when a NT author can easily and clearly refer to the Father instead of Jesus.

Jesus does what he sees his God and Father doing.

That's why I wrote "New Testament" in my previous post.

I take it then that you do acknowledge that there is a significant difference in the two words. That’s an important point.

Adoni occurs 195 times in the OT, and is always used in reference to a human person.

In Psalm 110 Yahweh addresses the Messiah in a prophetic oracle. Yahweh speaks to adoni, not to adonai.

Do you believe Jesus is a human person? Trinitarianism taught me that he isn’t.

 

[Fred]

Jesus does what he sees his God and Father doing.

Irrelevant to what I am talking about.

OT

You are being evasive and inconsiderate.
I specifically wrote the "New Testament" two times.

 

[Matthias]

That's awesome.

I know the Lord will do a new work in both of us, even if we don't fully enter the truth yet.

I know fasting is pretty heavy for a lot of people and I don't want to put anything that feels too heavy.

I am going to do a 3 day water only fast, reading these specific chapters slowly and prayerfully each day:

1. John 1
2. John 14
3. Colossians 1

From these alone I think we can derive all many essential truths concerning the Trinity.

I will pray these three things for both of us:

1. A deeper revelation of who Christ is.
2. A deeper revelation of who the Holy Spirit is.
3. A freedom from any blinding evil forces.

If you want to change the format at all, exact days don't have to be identical, I don't want to be legalistic about it, but this is my simple goal.


Also, I want to be clear about where I am currently and I already have a lot of posts on this forum you can read.

Here is a critical one: https://berean-apologetics.communit...e-nature-of-christology-by-a-trinitarian.196/


And here are my 12 reasons I believe Jesus is God:

1. A mere creation cannot have eternally co-existed with God.

2. A mere creation cannot have co-created the world.

3. A mere creation cannot be enough to atone for an infinite crime against holiness.

4. A mere creation cannot contain the principle of life itself inside it.

5. A mere creation cannot destroy the power of death in itself.

6. A mere creation cannot receive praise and devotion from every created thing.

7. A mere creation cannot hold all authority in heaven and earth.

8. A mere creation would have admonitions not to idolize or worship it.

9. A mere creation cannot potentially directly live inside of all human beings.

10. A mere creation would not ever be directly associated with anything divine.

11. A mere creation cannot demand that nothing be loved more than it as it would be commanding idolatry.

12. A mere creation cannot call itself the only absolute way and truth.

At the point you are willing to accept all 12 things, it is virtually indistinguishable for me from God anyway, and Jesus is God to you whether you use the term "God" or not. The Father is just an order of rank above Jesus with the same attributes and this corresponds to Trinitarian theology.

I believe we can find ample Scriptural evidence to support the above 12 points in both Paul and the rest of Scripture. Also when certain verses began to make me feel unsure of this, I have prayed about this directly to God for many years and received personal confirmation that this is the truth.

So the question may well then be asked, "Why isn't it stated even more clearly?" That's a good questions and I give a couple of reasons.

1. It is not a doctrine essential to salvation. It is very clear the 12 disciples during Christ's earthly minister did not at all fully realize who he was, and simply had a bare faith that he was a Savior, yet Jesus clearly says they were currently saved with their names written in heaven.

2. Doctrines are not required to be written out in the clearest way possible, but only to be written out in an essentially deducible way. We know the Bible condemns pedophilia without a verse that says "Thou shalt not molest children."

3. It is the "glory of kings to search out a matter" and all doctrine doesn't come by intellectually parsing the words of Scripture, but by direct revelation from God, as Jesus said "flesh and blood did not reveal this to you Peter."

In light of this, I invite anyone to continue on their journey with a sincere heart towards God and fervent prayer, and am confident that in the end, if we continue and do not quit with a true humble and teachable heart, the Spirit of God will always eventually get us to true beliefs.

I don’t eat or drink anything when I fast. I typically fast for 24 hours. I’ve never gone three days without food and water. Would you consider a 24 hour fast without food and water?

 

[Matthias]

Irrelevant to what I am talking about.

I don’t think so but maybe I’m distracted at the moment.

You are being evasive and inconsiderate.

I’m sorry you feel that way. It’s not my intention to be either.

I specifically wrote the "New Testament" two times.

The OT is quoted in the NT many times. Psalm 110:1 is one of the most frequently quoted or alluded to OT passages in the NT. Jesus is adoni, not adonai.

 

[Diserner]

I don’t eat or drink anything when I fast. I typically fast for 24 hours. I’ve never gone three days without food and water. Would you consider a 24 hour fast without food and water?

Wow, I don't consider going without water very healthy, but I would do it for you!

I would be careful of going without water too much as it does have some serious health issues and waterless fasts in the Bible were always supernatural.

However, I want to express solidarity and I'm willing to try!

 

[Fred]

I don’t think so but maybe I’m distracted at the moment.

Not distracted enough to keep going back to the OT when I made clear I was wanting to know something from the New Testament.
You dodged it.

I’m sorry you feel that way. It’s not my intention to be either.

The first time I can understand, but not three times.

 

[Matthias]

Wow, I don't consider going without water very healthy, but I would do it for you!

I would be careful of going without water too much as it does have some serious health issues and waterless fasts in the Bible were always supernatural.

However, I want to express solidarity and I'm willing to try!

I don’t want you to do anything that you think is unhealthy. How about a compromise?

Proposal: You fast for 3 days in the manner which you are accustomed to. I’ll fast for 1 day in the manner I’m accustomed to. We’ll both read John 1, John 14 and Colossians 1 during our respective fasts.

 

[Diserner]

Didn't like your URL:

 

[Matthias]

Not distracted enough to keep going back to the OT when I made clear I was wanting to know something from the New Testament.
You dodged it.

I asked you if you were familiar with Murray J. Harris’s book; the full title is - Jesus As God:The New Testament Use of Theos in Reference to Jesus.

Harris, a trinitarian, draws upon the OT in his analysis. So do I.

The first time I can understand, but not three times.

I’ll chalk it up to either miscommunication or misunderstanding.

 

[Diserner]

I don’t want you to do anything that you think is unhealthy. How about a compromise?

Proposal: You fast for 3 days in the manner which you are accustomed to. I’ll fast for 1 day in the manner I’m accustomed to. We’ll both read John 1, John 14 and Colossians 1 during our respective fasts.

Yeah, that sounds perfect.

Let's keep each in other prayer as well.