Humility And Calvinism?

[civic]

You must omit the rest of Jesus' teaching in Matt. 5 about "disobeying the least of God's Commandments and teaching others to do the same". Or His command not to even "Think" HE came to destroy the Law and Prophets, or God's Law about divorce, or God's instruction not to hate a brother in your heart. Instead, you must carefully select only those words which you can use to justify you rejection of God's judgments that you have judged as "worthless Jewish Traditions".

When "Every Word" of God that HE placed in the mouth of His Son is considered, the context isn't just about your definition of love. But to see this, or even care about this, you would have to be interested in the Truth of God, and not only self-justification. Therefore, you only seem to believe scriptures that can be twisted to justify your religious philosophy, just as the Calvinists are only interested in Scriptures they can twist to justify TULIP.

Preaching to others false gospels like "TULIP" or the insidious lie that God placed a Yoke of Bondage on the necks of men who placed their Faith in Him, is not love. Teaching lies about God's Word, like HIS Commandments are "Rudiments of this world", and worthless "Jewish traditions" is not love. When Jesus encountered the religious sects of His Time, who promoted lies about His Father, He Loved them by telling them the Truth of Scriptures. This is how to love the enemies of the Lord, which are my enemies as well.

Pointing out what the Scriptures actually say, and pointing out the false doctrines promoted by this world's religions, this is the love Jesus lived in. Just as Civic loves the Calvinists by pointing out the lies they preach to others about God. But he doesn't love himself with the same love, to make the same judgment against the false gospel he preaches, and you also, and me too when I lived after the religious philosophies of this world.

I must reject your teaching that rejecting God's judgments in favor of pagan practices and traditions, is pleasing to God. While humbling and "Yielding oneself" a servant to obey God, even in the least of His commandments, you imply makes me an enemy of God.

That isn't the message of Jesus in Matt. 5. If you cared as much about God's Truth as you did about self-justification, you could see this. It's my hope that someday you might take a leap of Faith and humble yourself to the teaching of the Christ, as "It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.



You see what I mean? You are actually teaching others that God isn't well pleased with men who Humble themselves in obedience to Him, even in the least of His commandments, like His Son did. This is not loving others, but deceiving them, and killing them if they adopt your philosophy.

Jesus said,
Matt. 6:31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?

32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek for your heavenly Father "knoweth that ye have need of all these things"

33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and "his righteousness"; (Not your own) and all these things shall be added unto you.

And if I am to believe on the name of "this Jesus", shall I not be a "Doer" of His Sayings? And what will I find if I obey Him? Will I not find a Merciful God who defines for His Children, as all good parents do for their children "what shall we eat, what shall we drink, and what covering God prepared for us?



Rebellion, dishonor, disobedience, unrighteousness, indifference to God, telling lies about Him, all these things come from within.



But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve (Serve who Doug, whoever we yield our self a servant to?) in newness of spirit, (New man, which after God is created in (HIS) Righteousness and "True Holiness") and not in the oldness of the letter. (Dead in your trespasses and Sins)

Seek God's Truth Doug, not justification. As Paul teaches.

Rom. 2: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing "seek for" glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Beating a dead horse with your justification of works of the law designed for the Jews . Pure legalism , Pharisaical Judaism that Jesus made obsolete in the New Covenant.

 

[TibiasDad]

You must omit the rest of Jesus' teaching in Matt. 5 about "disobeying the least of God's Commandments and teaching others to do the same".

No I don’t! The final command in Matt 5 was specifically about being perfect as God is in loving people!

Rebellion, dishonor, disobedience, unrighteousness, indifference to God, telling lies about Him, all these things come from within.

It’s a good thing that I am not doing that!

But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve (Serve who Doug, whoever we yield our self a servant to?) in newness of spirit, (New man, which after God is created in (HIS) Righteousness and "True Holiness") and not in the oldness of the letter. (Dead in your trespasses and Sins)

Seek God's Truth Doug, not justification.

We have been κατηργήθημεν, (discharge, sever, separate from) the law, because we have died to it, so that we can now serve in the new (power) of the Spirit (ἐν καινότητι πνεύματος) and the new life that has come through him, and not in oldness (the death producing effects) of the letter of the law.

Keeping the law only produces death. It was our old husband, but we are now dead to it, and thus have a new life and are now bound to a new husband.

Now, all the righteous requirements of the law “might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.”

In the “newness of spirit” refers to the Holy Spirit which we now live by, and Romans 8 clarifies the meaning of ἐν καινότητι πνεύματος to be such. We either live by the flesh, the sinful nature, or by the Spirit. (Notice the lack of ‘keeping the law’ as an option!) (See Rom 8:12-13)

ἐν καινότητι πνεύματος isn’t predicated on us, it is not the newness of our spirit, it is the newness of the Spirit! That’s why Greek interlinears translate it as “newness of (the) Spirit.” πνεύματος is contrasted with γράμματος , Spirit vs Letter (of the law) as the means by which we are to live.

Any way you cut it, the Spirit and the law are opposite to each other: The Spirit brings life, the letter brings death. The Spirit gives power, the letter exposes our lack of power.

Doug

 

[Studyman]

Beating a dead horse with your justification of works of the law designed for the Jews . Pure legalism , Pharisaical Judaism that Jesus made obsolete in the New Covenant.

Yes Civic, I know how you and Calvinists and the Pharisees believe much of God's Word is a "Dead Horse" and must "Omit" them and preach against them. And that the Jesus "of the Bible" was a Legalist and Judaizer when HE instructed whose Word's men are to "Live By", and how to enter into Life, even though all of the examples of Faith shown in the Bible Lived By them. And it is clear your mission in life is to convince as many as possible that the God and Father of the Lord's Christ is a liar whose Word's cannot be trusted, who lied to His children, and then placed a "Yoke of Bondage", "Rudiments of this world", on their necks when they trusted Him. And His Son had to come a save us from God.

I posted God's own definition of HIS OWN New Covenant, which doesn't even imply that God's Laws are destroyed or rendered obsolete. Only that the manner in which God's Laws are administered, and the manner in which sins are forgiven would change.

It is really sad that you won't be persuaded to Glorify God "As God", especially given His Son's Praise and respect for HIM. But as the Jesus "of the Bible" teaches, "And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

As it is to this day.

Nevertheless, my hope is that you will have a change in heart and will be persuaded to believe in my God and Jesus' God, in my Father and Jesus' Father. But as the Jesus "of the Bible" said; "Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?"

 

[civic]

Yes Civic, I know how you and Calvinists and the Pharisees believe much of God's Word is a "Dead Horse" and must "Omit" them and preach against them. And that the Jesus "of the Bible" was a Legalist and Judaizer when HE instructed whose Word's men are to "Live By", and how to enter into Life, even though all of the examples of Faith shown in the Bible Lived By them. And it is clear your mission in life is to convince as many as possible that the God and Father of the Lord's Christ is a liar whose Word's cannot be trusted, who lied to His children, and then placed a "Yoke of Bondage", "Rudiments of this world", on their necks when they trusted Him. And His Son had to come a save us from God.

I posted God's own definition of HIS OWN New Covenant, which doesn't even imply that God's Laws are destroyed or rendered obsolete. Only that the manner in which God's Laws are administered, and the manner in which sins are forgiven would change.

It is really sad that you won't be persuaded to Glorify God "As God", especially given His Son's Praise and respect for HIM. But as the Jesus "of the Bible" teaches, "And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

As it is to this day.

Nevertheless, my hope is that you will have a change in heart and will be persuaded to believe in my God and Jesus' God, in my Father and Jesus' Father. But as the Jesus "of the Bible" said; "Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?"

All Scripture not my opinion on the matter of the Law. Its been done away with for those in Christ.


Hebrews 8:13- By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete;

Hebrews 10:1-5
For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near. 2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins? 3 But in those sacrifices, there is a reminder of sins year by year. 4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

Hebrews 10:11-14
Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Hebrews 10:15-18
The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:

16 “This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”

17 Then he adds: “Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.” 18 And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.

Hebrews 9:15-18
For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.16 In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, 17 because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. 18 This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood.

Ephesians 2:11-22
Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

Abolish means:

katargeó: to render inoperative, abolish
Original Word: καταργέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: katargeó
Phonetic Spelling: (kat-arg-eh'-o)
Definition: to render inoperative, abolish
Usage: (a) I make idle (inactive), make of no effect, annul, abolish, bring to naught, (b) I discharge, sever, separate from.

Galatians 3:21-26
Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. 22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.

2 Corinthians 3:2-11
You are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by all men; 3 being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

4 Such confidence we have through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God, 6 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

7 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory. 10 For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it. 11 For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.

Colossians 2:13-14
And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.


Saved by Grace through Faith apart from works of the law.


Ephesians 2:8-10
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

John 6:28-29
28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

 

[Studyman]

No I don’t! The final command in Matt 5 was specifically about being perfect as God is in loving people!

It’s a good thing that I am not doing that!


We have been κατηργήθημεν, (discharge, sever, separate from) the law, because we have died to it, so that we can now serve in the new (power) of the Spirit (ἐν καινότητι πνεύματος) and the new life that has come through him, and not in oldness (the death producing effects) of the letter of the law.

I know it is against your religion to answer questions or engage in an unbiased examination of scriptures, Nevertheless, for those who might be reading along.

6 But now we are delivered "(discharge, sever, separate from) from "the law", that being dead wherein we were held;

What "LAW" brough our death? "thou shall love thy neighbor as thyself", thou shall not covet"? Did these laws bring my death? No Doug, the Law that brought death to me is "The Soul that sins shall die". Therefore, I am delivered from the Law "that being dead wherein we were held".

It's still a sin to "covet or steal or kill". Only a deceiver would preach to others that it isn't.

If I stole, and it is written, "the soul that steals shall die", I am delivered from that Law, "that being dead wherein I was held". I am not delivered from the requirement of God's Law, "thou shall not steal". Only a deceiver would promote the religious philosophy that Jesus freed men who call Him Lord, Lord, from the "Work of iniquity", in this example, Stealing.

But that is what you are promoting. My hope is that you will "come out of her", the "her" being the harlot religions of this world who "profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate".

Paul asked the perfect question after pointing these things out;

Rom. 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed "unto sin", but alive "unto God" through Jesus Christ our Lord.

12 Let not sin (Transgression of the Law) therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should "obey it" in the lusts thereof.

13 Neither "yield ye your members" as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves "unto God", as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness "unto God".

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

So the Spirit of God in Paul saw the Calvinists and you and Civic and this world's entire corrupt religious system, "who calls Jesus Lord, Lord" but "work iniquity" coming. And HE knows and has already prophesied through Jeremiah what religion you would be promoting.

Jer. 23: 16 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD. 17 They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh "after the imagination of his own heart", No evil shall come upon you.

Knowing these truths, the Spirit of God in Paul asked this question.

15 What then? shall we sin,(Transgress God's Law) because we are not under the law, (Dead) but under grace (Alive)? God forbid. (That means NO! Doug, I can show you the Greek if you don't believe that is what "God Forbids" means.)

So then, shall I transgress the Commandments of God because I am no longer spiritually dead, but spiritually alive? Paul says NO! I am to "Yield myself" unto God, and my parts (mind, body, works) not as instruments of transgressions, but as instruments of God's Righteousness. God, through Paul, continues to teach me.

16 Know ye not, (Don't you know this Doug?) that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, "his servants ye are" to whom ye obey; whether of sin (Transgression of God's Law) unto death, or of obedience (To God's Law) unto righteousness?

Therefore, I am delivered from the Law, that being dead wherein I was held, so that I can serve another in newness of the Spirit, being released from death that was required "by the letter of the law".

Paul teaches the same thing to the Jews and Gentiles in Ephesians.

Eph 4: 17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth "walk not" as other Gentiles "walk", in the vanity of their mind,

18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God "through the ignorance that is in them", because of the blindness of their heart:

19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, "to work" all uncleanness with greediness.

20 But ye have not so learned Christ;

21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, "which is corrupt" according to the deceitful lusts;

23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24 And that ye put on the new man, which "after God" is created in righteousness and true holiness.

All inspired by the Same Christ who told you in Matt. 5.

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle "shall in no wise pass from the law", till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

So yes, I thank God I have the good news of being released from the Law that held me in death, freeing me from Sin so I can serve God in newness of the spirit, and become no longer the servant of trespasses and sins, but the servant of God's Righteousness.

18 Being then made "free from sin", ye became "the servants of (God's) righteousness".

This is the Gospel of the Christ "of the bible".

 

[civic]

No I don’t! The final command in Matt 5 was specifically about being perfect as God is in loving people!

It’s a good thing that I am not doing that!


We have been κατηργήθημεν, (discharge, sever, separate from) the law, because we have died to it, so that we can now serve in the new (power) of the Spirit (ἐν καινότητι πνεύματος) and the new life that has come through him, and not in oldness (the death producing effects) of the letter of the law.

Keeping the law only produces death. It was our old husband, but we are now dead to it, and thus have a new life and are now bound to a new husband.

Now, all the righteous requirements of the law “might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.”

In the “newness of spirit” refers to the Holy Spirit which we now live by, and Romans 8 clarifies the meaning of ἐν καινότητι πνεύματος to be such. We either live by the flesh, the sinful nature, or by the Spirit. (Notice the lack of ‘keeping the law’ as an option!) (See Rom 8:12-13)

ἐν καινότητι πνεύματος isn’t predicated on us, it is not the newness of our spirit, it is the newness of the Spirit! That’s why Greek interlinears translate it as “newness of (the) Spirit.” πνεύματος is contrasted with γράμματος , Spirit vs Letter (of the law) as the means by which we are to live.

Any way you cut it, the Spirit and the law are opposite to each other: The Spirit brings life, the letter brings death. The Spirit gives power, the letter exposes our lack of power.

Doug

Amen

 

[TibiasDad]

What "LAW" brough our death?

7What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” b 8But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. 9Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.

13Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

Any and all of God’s laws bring death because the sinful nature makes it impossible for us to not break the law. Before the law, there was nothing to break, thus, no sin. That’s why Paul said he was alive (not condemned) once, but when he learned what the law said about not coveting, the sinful nature within him “sprang to life and (he) died!” The law was the means of death, not life.


Doug

 

[Studyman]

Keeping the law only produces death. It was our old husband, but we are now dead to it, and thus have a new life and are now bound to a new husband.

Where do you and Civic get your wicked judgments against God from. You certainly aren't "Learned of the Father".

Obeying God's Laws, like Jesus did, only produces death?

God lied to Israel and placed a Yoke of Bondage on the necks of anyone who trusted him?

God judge's men according to the DNA they were born with?

And now God is a husband who Jesus and His followers are to reject and divorce?

It's no wonder Jesus and His Father warned me so many times of men "Who call Him Lord, Lord", but work iniquity.

Now, all the righteous requirements of the law “might be fully met in us, who do not live according "to the flesh" (Children of disobedience) but according to the Spirit.” (Servants of God's Righteousness)

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, "who walk" not after the flesh, (doctrines and traditions of men) but after the Spirit. ( instruction in the Righteousness "of God")

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? (Like Civic and Doug and all the Calvinists preach) God forbid. (That means No Doug, God's Law which is Holy, Just and Good does not only produce death)

Then why did I die? Paul explains for those "Seeking God's Truth".

But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment "might become exceeding sinful."

God made the penalty so high for rejection of His Righteousness that HE created for our wellbeing, so that we, who Love Him, will consider transgressions REALLY, REALLY WICKED, EXCEEDINGLY SINFUL. And therefore, we won't yield our members are instruments of unrighteousness.

In the “newness of spirit” refers to the Holy Spirit which we now live by, and Romans 8 clarifies the meaning of ἐν καινότητι πνεύματος to be such. We either live by the flesh, the sinful nature, or by the Spirit. (Notice the lack of ‘keeping the law’ as an option!) (See Rom 8:12-13)

If God is a Spirit, and God's Word HE gave to His Son, the Jesus "of the Bible", is Spirit and Truth, and God's Law is Spiritual, then walking in the Laws of God is walking in the Spirit of God, AKA, walking in "The Holy Spirit". In your religion, didn't the Jesus "of the bible", "Walk in the Spirit"? Peter said God gives "His Holy Spirit" to those men who obey Him, not reject His Judgments. In your religion, did Zacharias and Simeon obey the Law of the Pharisees, or the Law of God? Of course you can't answer, but for others reading along, can you not see these truths?

While the doctrines and religious traditions and philosophies of men, "Rudiments of this world", are carnal and Fleshy, according to Paul.

Therefore, when a man turns to God as Paul did and taught to others, and "with the mind I myself serve the law of God", then he isn't walking after the flesh, after the Gentiles Walk, in the religious doctrines and traditions of men, but after the Spirit, like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and Caleb and Joshua and "EVERY" example of Faithful man in the entire Bible, along with their master, the Christ who also obeyed God's Laws.

ἐν καινότητι πνεύματος isn’t predicated on us, it is not the newness of our spirit, it is the newness of the Spirit! That’s why Greek interlinears translate it as “newness of (the) Spirit.” πνεύματος is contrasted with γράμματος , Spirit vs Letter (of the law) as the means by which we are to live.

But you have already sinned, therefore, by the letter of the Law you are dead in trespasses and sins. Why do you preach to others that Jesus died so you could continue to walk in trespasses and sins?

Any way you cut it, the Spirit and the law are opposite to each other:

This is what you and Civic and the Pope and the Calvinists preach. But God is a Spirit, and His Laws are Spiritual, according to Jesus and Paul. So this is why Jesus warned me about you and your religion Doug, because you preach one thing, while the Scriptures teach another.

So you are promoting a false gospel when you divide God from HIS Words and exalt yourself over Him by injecting your own words. Paul doesn't do this, "Circumcision (Jew) is nothing, and uncircumcision (Gentile) is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

The Spirit brings life, the letter brings death. The Spirit gives power, the letter exposes our lack of power.

Doug

Yes, the Spirit brings life, Sin brings death. Just as the Christ tells you in the Law and Prophets you preach Jesus came to destroy.

Deut. 30: 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: 20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey "his" voice, and that thou mayest "cleave unto him": for "he" is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

The Jesus "of the Bible" tries to teach you this, but you don't believe in this Jesus.

John 17: 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

 

[TibiasDad]

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Why does sin no longer have dominion over us? Because we are not under the law now!

The moral law still proves we are under sin. The moral law still does what it was intended to do.

The ceremonial laws and sacrificial laws are “obsolete and passing away”: it is these that we are no longer obligated to follow. This includes circumcision, which no one seems to deny is no longer necessary in Christ. If not circumcision, why not dietary restrictions?

Doug

 

[civic]

Why does sin no longer have dominion over us? Because we are not under the law now!

The moral law still proves we are under sin. The moral law still does what it was intended to do.

The ceremonial laws and sacrificial laws are “obsolete and passing away”: it is these that we are no longer obligated to follow. This includes circumcision, which no one seems to deny is no longer necessary in Christ. If not circumcision, why not dietary restrictions?

Doug

Exactly and why anyone wants to deny it is beyond me. The only reason can be self righties obeying of the law which is salvation by works , the way if the Pharisees in Jesus day.

 

[TibiasDad]

Exactly and why anyone wants to deny it is beyond me. The only reason can be self righties obeying of the law which is salvation by works , the way if the Pharisees in Jesus day.

It certainly appears that way. There is no need of Grace.

Doug

 

[Studyman]

All Scripture not my opinion on the matter of the Law. Its been done away with for those in Christ.


Hebrews 8:13- By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete;

Yes, the Priesthood has changed, and the manner in which sins are forgiven, and the manner in which God's Law is administered is become obsolete, and the requirements pertaining who can minister to God in "the Priesthood" has also changed.

The deceiver would have us believe Jesus came to destroy the Law and Prophets, and God's instructions in Righteousness that HE created for His people's well doing. But the Jesus "of the bible" saw the deceiver coming and taught me not to even "Think" that HE came to destroy or make obsolete the Law and Prophets.

The Law and the Prophets which prophesied of the Change in the Priesthood, the New Covenant that Jesus ushered in. And the Scriptures cannot be broken.

Hebrews 10:1-5
For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near. 2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins? 3 But in those sacrifices, there is a reminder of sins year by year. 4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

Yes, as God said, "The Priesthood Changed", that is, the manner in which sins are forgiven, and the manner in which God's Law is administered has changed. We have a New Priesthood, with a better Ministery based on better promises. We no longer have to rely on Levite Priests to know God or be forgiven. "For it is impossible that the blood of animals can take away sin."

Hebrews 7 speaks to this for those interested in knowing God's Truth.

11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it "the people received the law",) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

What Law changed? For those seeking the Truth of God, the Hebrews author tell us.

13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, (Judah) of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. (Jesus wasn't a Levite "according to the Levitical Priesthood Law".) 15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,

This change in the Priesthood Law was prophesied all over the Law and Prophets. These sacrifices and burnt offerings for sin is the Law that was "ADDED" because of Transgresses that Paul speaks to in Gal. 2. As Jeremiah also tells us.

Jer. 7: 22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: 23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you. 24 But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward.

You don't teach what the Spirit of Christ teaches through Jeremiah. You preach that God's Laws are a Yoke of bondage, Rudiments of this world impossible for men to walk in. And that God lied to Israel and told them His Laws were for their own good.

Others in your religion teach that Keeping God's Laws only brings death.

It seems prudent to point out to the brethren what the scriptures actually saym when a man believes "ALL" that is written, as did Paul.

Hebrews 10:11-14
Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Yes, a New Priesthood, with a New Priest. This is what God said His New Covenant was.

Hebrews 10:15-18
The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:

Yes, this is the Holy Spirit to which Peter spoke of in Acts 5: 32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

You too could stop promoting a false gospel if you would only humble yourself to Every Word of god.

16 “This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”

Yes, not destroy them or abolish them as you and Doug and the Calvinists preach.

17 Then he adds: “Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.” 18 And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.

Absolutely. The Priesthood changed, the Sacrificial Law was to lead them to Christ, the True unblemished sacrifice. But Hebrews also teaches;

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Certainly a man should also believe the Inspired Words of God you omit.

Hebrews 9:15-18
For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.16 In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, 17 because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. 18 This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood.

Truly the manner in which God's Law is received, and the manner in which sins are forgiven has changed. But that isn't what is causing the contention between us. You are preaching that Jesus came to abolish His Father's Laws. Where God Himself teaches no such thing. Jesus saw you coming Civic, and therefore prepared me.

Matt. 5: 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Yet, your entire religious philosophy, just like the Calvinists you rebuke, is founded on the teaching that Jesus came to abolish God's Laws. A doctrine Jesus told me to "Not even think"

It seem prudent to point these undeniable Biblical Truths out to the brethren.

 

[TibiasDad]

All Scripture not my opinion on the matter of the Law. Its been done away with for those in Christ.


Hebrews 8:13- By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete;

Hebrews 10:1-5
For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near. 2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins? 3 But in those sacrifices, there is a reminder of sins year by year. 4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

Hebrews 10:11-14
Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Hebrews 10:15-18
The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:

16 “This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”

17 Then he adds: “Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.” 18 And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.

Hebrews 9:15-18
For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.16 In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, 17 because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. 18 This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood.

Ephesians 2:11-22
Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

Abolish means:

katargeó: to render inoperative, abolish
Original Word: καταργέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: katargeó
Phonetic Spelling: (kat-arg-eh'-o)
Definition: to render inoperative, abolish
Usage: (a) I make idle (inactive), make of no effect, annul, abolish, bring to naught, (b) I discharge, sever, separate from.

Galatians 3:21-26
Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. 22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.

2 Corinthians 3:2-11
You are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by all men; 3 being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

4 Such confidence we have through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God, 6 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

7 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory. 10 For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it. 11 For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.

Colossians 2:13-14
And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.


Saved by Grace through Faith apart from works of the law.


Ephesians 2:8-10
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

John 6:28-29
28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

One might hope that hearing this in stereo he might get the message, but he might be deaf!

Doug

 

[Studyman]

7What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” b 8But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead. 9Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. 11For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.

13Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means!

But you preach just the opposite.

"Keeping the law only produces death".

Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment "sin might become utterly sinful."

Even in your new age progressive bible translation, Paul is saying that the steep price for disobedience and rebellion towards God, is done, not to kill us, but so that we will come to recognize the wickedness and how exceedingly evil it is to willfully live in transgressing God's Commandments, or as the Jesus "of the bible" teaches, to "work iniquity".

Any and all of God’s laws bring death because the sinful nature makes it impossible for us to not break the law.

All children fall in their quest to learn how to walk. This is God's very creation. But they learn how to walk by "Patient continuance of trying to walk", (Rom. 2:7) or as it is written about Jesus Himself, "He learned obedience by the things HE suffered".

But because you have been convinced, just as Eve was, and by the same spirit, that God is a liar whose Words and instruction in righteousness that Jesus walked in, is not trustworthy "for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. So You refuse to "Seek the Kingdom of God and "HIS" Righteousness" as the Jesus "of the Bible" instructs, therefore you have no desire to please Him, instead, you adopt one of the many religious sects of this world, who call Him Lord, Lord, but "work iniquity", and you promote, defend and justify this religion, just as Calvinists and Pharisees justify the religious sect they have adopted.

I'm saying that man can repent and "Turn to God". But you would have to believe in Him and be "Learned of Him". That would take self-denial.

Before the law, there was nothing to break, thus, no sin.

When was there no Commandment of God?

Of course, you likely won't answer, because you are here to promote and justify your own religion, not Seek God's Truth.

That’s why Paul said he was alive (not condemned) once, but when he learned what the law said about not coveting, the sinful nature within him “sprang to life and (he) died!”

Horse Feathers Doug. Paul doesn't mention sinful nature here, nor does he say he heard God's Law, then ran to transgress it.

"9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

The commandment came and he died, because he realized he had already broken it. As all men have.

The law was the means of death, not life.

In your religion, and Civic's and the Calvinists, this is undoubtably true. But not Paul, as he said "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve "the law of God"; but with the flesh the law of sin.

And what is "The Law of Sin"? "The soul that sins shall die", Yes? Therefore, the Old fleshy, disobedient, stubborn rebellious man is Crucified, and God's People put on the New Man, "which after God" "is created is righteousness and true Holiness".

This New Man serves the Law of God with his mind, and as Paul teaches, doesn't "yield ye his members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves "unto God", as those that are "alive from the dead", and your members as instruments of righteousness "unto God".

My issue with the Calvinists and Civic's religion, and yours, is founded on the huge disconnect between the Gospel of Christ Paul promoted, and the religious philosophies and traditions of this world's religions you live by and promote.

I can see your religion is very precious to you and you will defend them in spite of what Scriptures actually say, just as the Pharisees did.

Nevertheless, it is good to test the spirits of this world's doctrines and traditions in order to see if they are wrought in God or man. Maybe not for you, but for others who might be reading along.

 

[Studyman]

One might hope that hearing this in stereo he might get the message, but he might be deaf!

Doug

I hear your message Doug, loud and clear. You and Civic are here to defend, promote and justify your religion, just as the Calvinists are to promote and defend theirs. I'm just pointing out that there really is no difference between the two. One false gospel is no better or worse than another false gospel. As Jesus said "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish".

 

[TibiasDad]

Matt. 5: 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Yet, your entire religious philosophy, just like the Calvinists you rebuke, is founded on the teaching that Jesus came to abolish God's Laws. A doctrine Jesus told me to "Not even think"

The law and the prophets were fulfilled at the end of Jesus’s ministry! Fulfilled things still exist, but are no longer needed, they have accomplished their purpose.

What makes us Jewish is no longer circumcision of flesh, or not eating certain foods, but circumcision of the heart by the Spirit. The OT is focused on the outward things as a shadow image of the NT realities that were yet to come. As has been stated over and over again, the OT is obsolete and irrelevant in the NT.

Not the moral code, but the laws that were peculiar to being Jewish as opposed to Gentile, the sacrificial laws and dietary restrictions, are now obsolete.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

But you preach just the opposite.

Thank you, I just realized my miswording:
"Keeping the law only produces death" is not what I should have said, or meant to say. Obviously “keeping” the law is good, though not life giving, for by the law no man is saved. But the law, as previously shown by my citation of Romans 7 in previous posts, is the means of death by the sinful nature within us.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

I hear your message Doug, loud and clear. You and Civic are here to defend, promote and justify your religion, just as the Calvinists are to promote and defend theirs. I'm just pointing out that there really is no difference between the two. One false gospel is no better or worse than another false gospel. As Jesus said "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish".

You keep saying we are preaching another gospel, but you never tell us what “gospel” you preach.

We preach Christ crucified, buried and raised on the third day, ascended into heaven. And all who believe in him are saved and new creations in Christ.

As Paul says, “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!” Gal 1:8-9

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Even in your new age progressive bible translation, Paul is saying that the steep price for disobedience and rebellion towards God, is done, not to kill us, but so that we will come to recognize the wickedness and how exceedingly evil it is to willfully live in transgressing God's Commandments, or as the Jesus "of the bible" teaches, to "work iniquity".

What part of “it used what is good to bring about my death” is hard to understand? We are dead because the law aroused the sinful nature within us. The sinful nature is the killer and the law is it’s weapon.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

All children fall in their quest to learn how to walk. This is God's very creation. But they learn how to walk by "Patient continuance of trying to walk", (Rom. 2:7) or as it is written about Jesus Himself, "He learned obedience by the things HE suffered".

This has nothing to do with what I said. I said

Any and all of God’s laws bring death because the sinful nature makes it impossible for us to not break the law.

This is a statement about mankind and his state of sinfulness at birth and how it reacts when learning what the law says.

Nobody born of Adam can resist against the sinful nature indefinitely. Our innate setting of behavior is toward our own interests. Thus Paul’s choice of coveting as his example to prove is point in Rom 7. Before the command, he had no concept of being covetous, but we he was told “do not covet”, he suddenly began to covet and or realized he had been covetous all along.

This isn’t about a new believer’s walk, this is about why the law was given and why that purpose was not to provide salvation, but rather to reveal that we are sinful and in need of salvation.


Doug