Humility And Calvinism?

[TibiasDad]

"Was then that which is good "made death unto me"? God forbid. That means NO! Doug, God's Good, Holy and Just LAW didn't make death unto Paul

Rom 7:13Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

Paul is saying that though the law is good and holy, it brought death because it exposed the sinful nature and brought it to life, which in turn put me to death.

The law itself did nothing, but the sinful nature used the commands of the law to put me do death because I could not perfectly keep it.

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Circumcision of the heart is still a requirement of God

Did I say differently? The circumcision of flesh is no longer needed!

Gal 5:2Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

Doug

 

[Studyman]

Have you sinned since you became a believer ? Yes or no

I will not play your deceiver games any more Civic.

You refuse to answer my questions, address the scriptures I post, even acknowledge them in most cases. You preach the Lie that Jesus came to destroy God's Laws, and that God's Laws were only for men of a certain DNA. You preach to the world that God is a liar, whose Words are not to be trusted, and that HE placed an unbearable "Yoke of Bondage" on the necks of men who trusted Him, then killed them by the thousands when they, according to your adopted philosophy, "couldn't possibly obey". And that Jesus had to come a save us from His God and my God.

You promote these and many other falsehoods while you judge Calvinists for doing the same exact thing.

Have I slipped in sin since I came to the Knowledge of God's Truth? God knows I have, there is no doubt. But whether I have sinned or not, has no bearing on the falsehoods you are promoting about God. Just as the false gospel of Tulip, remains a false gospel whether you are faithful to God or not.

I know you are only promoting the philosophies of the religious sect/business that you have adopted and might actually believe the falsehoods you promote. Just as the Calvinists you berate, in many cases, actually believes in "Tulip". After all, the very definition of deceived, is believing things which are not truth.

The only thing stopping you from having an unbiased, honest examination of Scriptures with me, is the hubris and pride which exists in you. Just as the only thing stopping the Calvinists on this forum from engaging in an honest examination of Scriptures concerning "Tulip" is the hubris and pride which exists in them.

I am happy to engage with you concerning your philosophy, or my understanding, as long as it involves asking and answering each other's questions, as Jesus and His Disciples engaged.

 

[TibiasDad]

Preaching to the World that you have Judged God's Laws and have determined them as "Immoral" and unworthy of your honor and respect.

Would you mind quoting where I ever said such a thing!


Doug

 

[civic]

Would you mind quoting where I ever said such a thing!


Doug

I know it’s getting ridiculous

 

[TibiasDad]

So yes, I am living proof that all men have sinned. But you are living proof of the existence of men, "who come in Christ's Name" to deceive.

Matt 7:1


Doug

 

[Studyman]

A immature and incomplete "son" willingly sins. David wanted the wife of another man. He willingly sought to sin to have her.

There is no sacrifice for willful sin. And David, as King of Israel, who through God, gained many victories over the enemies of God's people, was not an immature son, in my view. This was an example "for our admonition", as Paul teaches in 1 Cor. 10.

And I hear this world's religious men invoking Davids sin all the time. That is all they seem to remember about him. But they never mention that because of this sin, David lost his own son. I have children, I can't even imagine what that was like and hope I never do. His entire kingdom was taken from him. He was humiliated in front of the world, the Jews, the Pagans around them. But the worse part of his sin, according to God, was that he gave the enemies of the Lord occasion to blaspheme God's Holy Name. And to this day, religious men who "Call Jesus Lord, Lord", use David's sin as an excuse or justification for their willful sin.

And yet, after all this, David remained faithful to God, sorrowing to repentance, and from that point on in Scriptures, there was never ONE mention of this event. Not one. Instead, here is how God spoke about David,

1 Kings 9: 4 And if thou wilt walk before me, as David thy father walked, in integrity of heart, and in uprightness, to do according to all that I have commanded thee, and wilt keep my statutes and my judgments: 5 Then I will establish the throne of thy kingdom upon Israel for ever, as I promised to David thy father, saying, There shall not fail thee a man upon the throne of Israel.

So I never invoke this story to justify or excuse sin, willful or not. If God can forgive and forget, a nobody like me should be able to do the same.

 

[TibiasDad]

There is no sacrifice for willful sin.

Now look who is cherry picking!

Heb 10:26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

ἁμαρτανόντων Is a present tense, active, participle which indicates actively sinning.
Thus, without repentance or stopping the behavior, there is no sacrifice for sin available for him. If we don’t stop sinning all we have left to expect “only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.”


Doug

 

[civic]

Now look who is cherry picking!

Heb 10:26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

ἁμαρτανόντων Is a present tense, active, participle which indicates actively sinning.
Thus, without repentance or stopping the behavior, there is no sacrifice for sin available for him. If we don’t stop sinning all we have left to expect “only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.”


Doug

It’s crazy how some isolate passages to support an erroneous doctrine like we are witnessing here. It’s the exact same mistake made by Calvinists who isolate passages from their context

 

[Studyman]

Studyman,

With all due respect, I am going to have to end this conversation if you are going to make such statements!

We haven't had a real conversation Doug, you are promoting your religious philosophy, then you are justifying your religious philosophy. In spite of what the Scriptures actually say. So that I'm not making baseless accusations, here are a few examples.

"The law and the prophets were fulfilled at the end of Jesus’s ministry!"

If you don't want your religious philosophy questioned, then you shouldn't make such foolish statements and then get mad when someone actually reads what you write. Here is what the Jesus of the Bible actually said;

Matt. 28: 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe "all things whatsoever I have commanded you": and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

But that would mean to "Live By Every Word which proceeds from the mouth of God" as HE commands. That would mean "Think Not that I came to destroy the Law and Prophets" as He declared. That would mean that His Earthly Ministry continues even until the end of the world?

So again, you are promoting a religious philosophy, like the Calvinists, but when the Scriptures are actually examined this philosophy is exposed as a false gospel, just like "Tulip" cannot stand up under honest Scriptural examination.

You also preach;

"Also note that the ones who “follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons”, are "the ones saying" we should abstain from eating "certain foods!"

God is the One that the Jesus, "of the Bible", said to SEEK to find out what is food and what is not. I posted HIS Words but you completely ignored them.

I don't believe there is any Biblical proof that God did "follow a deceiving spirit, and things taught by demons" when He told Noah and Abraham's Children what to eat, and what to abstain from eating. The only Spirit in the Entire Bible that teaches men to abstain from drinking blood and eating Pork and maggots and slugs, is the Spirit of God. And what did you just preach, to anyone who would listen to you?

"Also note that the ones who “follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons”, are "the ones saying" we should abstain from eating certain foods!"

If you can find "ANY" other person or Spirit that said to abstain from eating blood, things strangled, maggots, Swine's flesh, Slugs, then please show me who they are, because right now, only God and His appointed teachers have said to abstain from eating blood and Pork and slugs and dogs etc.

Now I do find that there were religious men who transgress God's Commandments so they could keep their own traditions, and these men said to abstain from eating bread touched with unwashed hands, and they promoted many such manmade traditions, like touch not, handle not, taste not. And men who promote these manmade traditions could very well be following deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

But God is not a deceiving Spirit. And His instruction is not a "manmade tradition". At least not according to the Holy Scriptures.

I am more than willingly to converse with you, or anyone else for that matter, when the conversation is respectful, but you seem to just be looking for a fight.

If that were true, then we could examine and discuss scriptures, and ask and answer each other's questions. I address the scriptures you post. I answer your questions? But you refuse to acknowledge or address most all of mine. In the same exact way that the Calvinists refuse to answer you and Civic's questions and examine the Scriptures you use to question their false doctrine of "Tulip".

Being ignored, called a Legalist for believing in the Jesus "of the bible" and having the Scriptures posted mostly ignored, it does take its toll.

I appreciate that you feel I am in error, and that you’re making an effort to “correct” my path.

No Doug, Jesus didn't expose the corruption and disobedience of the mainstream preachers of His Time, because He "felt they were in error". He showed them in Scriptures, where they were in Error. And they didn't like Him for it.

In the same way that you and Civic don't berate and rebuke Calvinists because you "Feel they are in error". The Scriptures you post show them they are in Error, and they don't like it very much.

I don't "feel" you are in error with the things I have replied to and questioned. The Scriptures clearly show that you "ARE" in Error about several things, and so is Civic. But like the Calvinists and the Pharisees, you don't like it much when the Scriptures expose your error.

But Scripture says we are to speak the truth in love, and jumping to such absurd conclusions like ‘your teaching Jesus is twiddling his thumbs’

"The law and the prophets were fulfilled at the end of Jesus’s ministry! Fulfilled things still exist, but are no longer needed, they have accomplished their purpose.

"God's Law only brings death"

It's not that you made the foolish statements. It's the Philosophy you are trying to preserve, promote and protect, that caused you to make the foolish statements. In both of these cases, you made them to justify your preaching that Jesus came to destroy the Law and Prophets. And this because you have adopted the insidious lie, and God placed a Yoke of Bondage on the Necks of men who placed their faith in Him. Laws that were so grievous and burdensome that they are impossible to obey even though God said many did obey them, like Abraham, Caleb, David, Joshua, Zacharias, Meshak, Simeon, Anna. In fact, "Every Example of Faith in the Holy scripture, yielded themselves servants to obey God.

I'm ok with these Biblical Truths because I don't have one or more of this world's religious sects or businesses to promote, defend and preserve. But you must find a way to destroy God's Law, because you have chosen to Judge them, some moral and others not moral.

I do agree on one thing though. Perhaps it's time to shake the dust. You don't really seem to care about what Every Word of God has to say. And God's Word, which became Flesh, is all I have.

 

[Studyman]

Now look who is cherry picking!

Heb 10:26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

ἁμαρτανόντων Is a present tense, active, participle which indicates actively sinning.
Thus, without repentance or stopping the behavior, there is no sacrifice for sin available for him. If we don’t stop sinning all we have left to expect “only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.”


Doug

LOL, OK. So I can steal from the bank once, for the big score, even though I know God said, "thou shall not steal", but I'm OK, because if I stop stealing after that, the blood of Jesus will wash me clean.

You go ahead and run with that one.

 

[TibiasDad]

LOL, OK. So I can steal from the bank once, for the big score, even though I know God said, "thou shall not steal"

Didn’t say that…

, but I'm OK, because if I stop stealing after that, the blood of Jesus will wash me clean.

If you confess and repent of that action and seek forgiveness, yes!
1John 1:9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

Isn’t this the hope of the gospel; that we can be forgiven and find restoration in Christ?

You go ahead and run with that one.

I have for 47 years, and will for the rest of my life! “I know whom I have believed in, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I’ve committed unto him against that day!”

Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

I do agree on one thing though. Perhaps it's time to shake the dust. You don't really seem to care about what Every Word of God has to say. And God's Word, which became Flesh, is all I have.

In other words, If I don’t change my mind or agree with you, then I’m not worthy of conversation.

Doug

 

[Rockson]

In other words, If I don’t change my mind or agree with you, then I’m not worthy of conversation.

Doug

He'll talk to you again though Doug. It might be in heaven when Jesus tells him to go over to you and say he's sorry.

I might have the Lord say that to me too when it comes to some people. I'll do it though I'll do whatever he tells me.

 

[civic]

He'll talk to you again though Doug. It might be in heaven when Jesus tells him to go over to you and say he's sorry.

I might have the Lord say that to me too when it comes to some people. I'll do it though I'll do whatever he tells me.

Yep

 

[Studyman]

It’s crazy how some isolate passages to support an erroneous doctrine like we are witnessing here. It’s the exact same mistake made by Calvinists who isolate passages from their context

I agree Civic,

The Pharisees followed the same religious philosophy. They believed that they could reject God's Judgments and create their own, reject God's Statutes and create their own, reject God's Righteousness and create their own, and they were righteous before God because of one passage they isolated and twisted from its context.

Gen. 26: 4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that "Abraham" obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

So then, they twisted the context of this passage to mean that if the DNA they were born with was of the same bloodline as Abraham, they had it made, not because they respected, honored or obeyed God's Word, as HE instructed them, but "Because" Abraham respected, honored and obeyed God's Word. Now they can live after the imaginations of their own heart, create their own religions, doctrines, traditions and philosophies, and their DNA will save them. This played out in the Testimony of Christ.

John 8: 33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, "and were never in bondage" to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

Of course, that wasn't what the Scripture meant at all, which they would have known had they any respect and honor for God. And the Prophets God sent to them over and over and over, to show them that "They" needed to respect, have honor of and obey God to be blessed. But they ridiculed, persecuted and shamed those who showed them God's Word.

Then He sent His Own Son to them, who told them the truth of God.

39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If "ye were" Abraham's children, ye would "do" the works of Abraham.

Which of course, was also written and Jesus knew and believed it.

Gen. 18: 19 For I know him, "that he will command his children and his household after him", and they shall keep "the way of the LORD", "to do justice and judgment"; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

But the mainstream preachers of Jesus time cared only to preserve, protect and justify their own manmade religion, because they received a lot of praise from men, and the money and power they received by virtue of their own religion was substantial, and if they had obeyed God as Abraham and his God had instructed them, they would be a nobody, just like that pesky carpenter's son. The cost to turn away from their own religion to the Way of the Lord their father commanded, was just too great for them. At first they mocked and ridiculed Jesus, but when HE wouldn't shut up, they drummed up some fake accusations against Him and killed Him, as they did the messengers of God before Him.

In like manner, we have witnessed the same thing from "many" who call Jesus their Lord, today. Religious men who "Profess to know God", but still promote the evil and wicked falsehood that God treats men differently, depending on the DNA they were born with.

And just like before, when a man shows them the actual Word of God which exposes this false gospel, they ridicule and mock them, in their perpetual mission to preserve, protect and justify their own religion.

It's quite fascinating, and encouraging to see God's Living Word, "There is nothing new under the sun" being revealed right in front of my eyes.

 

[civic]

I agree Civic,

The Pharisees followed the same religious philosophy. They believed that they could reject God's Judgments and create their own, reject God's Statutes and create their own, reject God's Righteousness and create their own, and they were righteous before God because of one passage they isolated and twisted from its context.

Gen. 26: 4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

5 Because that "Abraham" obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

So then, they twisted the context of this passage to mean that if the DNA they were born with was of the same bloodline as Abraham, they had it made, not because they respected, honored or obeyed God's Word, as HE instructed them, but "Because" Abraham respected, honored and obeyed God's Word. Now they can live after the imaginations of their own heart, create their own religions, doctrines, traditions and philosophies, and their DNA will save them. This played out in the Testimony of Christ.

John 8: 33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, "and were never in bondage" to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

Of course, that wasn't what the Scripture meant at all, which they would have known had they any respect and honor for God. And the Prophets God sent to them over and over and over, to show them that "They" needed to respect, have honor of and obey God to be blessed. But they ridiculed, persecuted and shamed those who showed them God's Word.

Then He sent His Own Son to them, who told them the truth of God.

39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If "ye were" Abraham's children, ye would "do" the works of Abraham.

Which of course, was also written and Jesus knew and believed it.

Gen. 18: 19 For I know him, "that he will command his children and his household after him", and they shall keep "the way of the LORD", "to do justice and judgment"; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

But the mainstream preachers of Jesus time cared only to preserve, protect and justify their own manmade religion, because they received a lot of praise from men, and the money and power they received by virtue of their own religion was substantial, and if they had obeyed God as Abraham and his God had instructed them, they would be a nobody, just like that pesky carpenter's son. The cost to turn away from their own religion to the Way of the Lord their father commanded, was just too great for them. At first they mocked and ridiculed Jesus, but when HE wouldn't shut up, they drummed up some fake accusations against Him and killed Him, as they did the messengers of God before Him.

In like manner, we have witnessed the same thing from "many" who call Jesus their Lord, today. Religious men who "Profess to know God", but still promote the evil and wicked falsehood that God treats men differently, depending on the DNA they were born with.

And just like before, when a man shows them the actual Word of God which exposes this false gospel, they ridicule and mock them, in their perpetual mission to preserve, protect and justify their own religion.

It's quite fascinating, and encouraging to see God's Living Word, "There is nothing new under the sun" being revealed right in front of my eyes.

The false gospel is obedience to the law as per Jesus and the Apostles teaching. See Galatians 1-2. Colossians 2, Romans, Hebrews 8-9 and the 4 gospels.

 

[Studyman]

In other words, If I don’t change my mind or agree with you, then I’m not worthy of conversation.

Doug

Well, to be honest, this is what you said? "With all due respect, I am going to have "to end" this conversation if you are going to make such statements"

If I agree with your adopted religion, I am worthy of a conversation. But if I have questions based on what the Scriptures actually say, or I respond to what you actually say, then YOU are going to end the conversation.

I'm OK with that. Just be honest.

 

[civic]

Well, to be honest, this is what you said? "With all due respect, I am going to have "to end" this conversation if you are going to make such statements"

If I agree with your adopted religion, I am worthy of a conversation. But if I have questions based on what the Scriptures actually say, or I respond to what you actually say, then YOU are going to end the conversation.

I'm OK with that. Just be honest.

Sound familiar?

Biblical N.T. Facts !

Judaizers believed that Christians should follow the Mosaic Law, including circumcision, Jewish holidays, and dietary restrictions. They also believed that these practices were necessary for salvation and wanted to impose them on Gentile converts.

The Judaizers' teachings caused divisions in the early Christian church and limited Christian freedom. The apostle Paul, especially in his letter to the Galatians, opposed their teachings, calling some Judaizers "false brothers". The apostles also concluded that salvation came through faith in Christ, not by following the Old Testament Law, so Gentiles and Jewish Christians didn't need to follow Jewish customs to be part of the church

You and the Judaizers are two peas in a pod

 

[Studyman]

The false gospel is obedience to the law as per Jesus and the Apostles teaching. See Galatians 1-2. Colossians 2, Romans, Hebrews 8-9 and the 4 gospels.

I know you are on a mission to turn men away from God's Law and turn them towards this world's religious voice, just as the serpent also convinced Eve that obeying God is a false gospel.

And men on this mission must isolate and take out of context some of the passages in the NT to promote this religion, just as the serpent also used "some" of God's Word to deceive Eve. And they must discredit the entire Law and Prophets, and promote God as an untrustworthy tyrant that didn't know what HE was doing, even so incompetent that HE prophesied of the Coming of the Christ, but not the destruction of His own Law, even implying that God lied to His people concerning why HE created His Law for them, and telling them that they, like Abraham and Caleb, could keep them, if they loved Him.

Therefore, every time they speak, it is to discredit God and exalt themself. God said Israel was blessed "Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws"

But Civic, a Judge of God (JOG) tells the world, "Abraham was a liar". Along with Noah and David, and all the members of the Church of God who lived in the "Way of the Lord".

You claim Gal. 1 as support of your JOG.

Gal. 1: 1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;) 2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia: 3 Grace be to you and peace from God "the Father", and from our Lord Jesus Christ, 4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from "this present evil world", according to the will "of God and our Father":

But the JOG, promotes the religious philosophy, that Jesus came to deliver us from "God's Laws", not the doctrines and traditions of religious men who "Come in Christ's Name" in this evil world that the Jesus "of the Bible" warned about. That it wasn't this world's evil religious men who "profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate", that burdened men with their doctrines and traditions, but that "God's LAW" was the Yoke of Bondage that destroyed them, killed them. And even Doug has been snared by such a wicked philosophy, teaching the God's Law "Only brings death".

You use Col. 2 to support the philosophy that obedience to God is a false gospel.

Col. 2: 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

But the JOG implies that it was God's LAW, not the philosophies and traditions of religious men, that spoils men. It is God's Law that is the vain deceit, that God's LAW is the traditions of men and rudiments of this evil world that are NOT AFTER CHRIST. Ignoring the undeniable Biblical Fact that it was "BECAUSE" Jesus obeyed God's Laws, that HE was given such Glory.

In Romans, another letter the JOG claim as support for their religious philosophy that obedience to God is a false gospel, Paul said;

Rom. 2: 11 For there is no respect of persons with God. 12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the "doers of the law" shall be justified.

But the JOG rejects these inspired Words of God as "The False Gospel".

In the Gospels that you also claim as support for the preaching that obedience to God is a false gospel, the Jesus "of the Bible" said;

Matt. 4: 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

But again, JOG teaches whoever will listen to him, that this too, is a false gospel.

In every case, and I could go on and on, the teaching that obedience to God is a false gospel, promoted by self-proclaimed "minister of righteousness", JOG who "come in Christ's Name", who calls Jesus Lord Lord, is the opposite of what God and His Inspired Word actually says.

JOG may be able to isolate a passage here and there to convince men to turn away from God's instruction in righteousness. And we were warned about that as well.

"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."

At first I was hoping that the JOG would consider becoming a judge of themselves, just as I'm sure Jesus also hoped early on that the Pharisees would turn away from their godless religion.

But now I just want to point these things out, so that others reading might "Take Heed" and "Beware" of the philosophies being promoted by this world's religions, "Who come in Christ's Name".