Yeah I get it. You are a Calvinist and therefore have no biblical knowledge of foreknowledge, predestination, justification, regeneration, or soteriology generally. It is so sad. Nevertheless, I do think that you love God and really want to be one of His.
His People He foreknew !
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TibiasDad
Active Member
There is a lot of merit to what you say here; and it is something that I have strongly considered adopting as my own perspective, especially that spiritual death is precisely what we derived from the consequences of Adam’s actions.
I do think that physical death was probably an eventual outcome, but that it was, perhaps, accelerated, especially after the flood.
Doug
brightfame52
Active Member
No you dont get it. For God to foreknow a individual and to have omniscience of a person are not the same. See Jesus knows with omniscience everything about these individuals Matt 7:23
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Is He speaking about omniscience here ? NO
You are correct. He was not speaking about His omniscience in that verse. But neither is Jesus speaking about His foreknowledge in that verse.
brightfame52
Active Member
@Jim
Correct, so His foreknowledge isnt His Omniscience. Foreknow is the same greek word for know, just has the prefix [before] added to it,
Rom 11:2
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying
Here is the greek word proginōskō its combined with the prep pro which simply means before, and the verb ginōskō
Now the word knew in Matt 7 23 is the same greek word
ginōskō
The only difference is that it doesnt have the prep pro attached to it, which only means b4. So He is saying, at not time did i know you. They were not His People is what that means.
Foreknow is limited to His People, nothing to do with omniscience. See He knows them that are His 2 Tim 2 19
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
Jn 10:14
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
Jesus foreknows only His Sheep, His People, but to them in Matt 7:23 he was not at anytime their Shepherd, He never knew them like that.
Correct, so His foreknowledge isnt His Omniscience. Foreknow is the same greek word for know, just has the prefix [before] added to it,
Rom 11:2
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying
Here is the greek word proginōskō its combined with the prep pro which simply means before, and the verb ginōskō
Now the word knew in Matt 7 23 is the same greek word
ginōskō
The only difference is that it doesnt have the prep pro attached to it, which only means b4. So He is saying, at not time did i know you. They were not His People is what that means.
Foreknow is limited to His People, nothing to do with omniscience. See He knows them that are His 2 Tim 2 19
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
Jn 10:14
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
Jesus foreknows only His Sheep, His People, but to them in Matt 7:23 he was not at anytime their Shepherd, He never knew them like that.
You are hopelessly bound to the errors of Augustine/Calvin. So much so that you cannot reach a proper understanding of God's word. Sad, terribly sad. But, unfortunately, that is the fate of all who tie their understanding to Augustine and Calvin rather that what God has actually declared in His word.
brightfame52
Active Member
This thread is about a terrible mistranslation of the KJV.
You are emphasising spiritual death over physical death to avoid accepting the verse refers to physical death because then their liability to death must mean that they are sinful at conception. There is no distinction in the verse that death is the wages for sin about which kind of death is meant but I bet the disciples knew it meant their physical death or spiritual death would have been specifically mentioned.
No that is not why I reject physical as the wages of sin. I only look to see what God said way back in the Genesis account of creation. There were two identified trees placed in the garden. Those were the Tree of knowledge of good and evil and the Tree of life. It is well known what the result was of eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil; however, the result of eating the fruit of the tree of life is seldom if ever discussed. We learn what that is by what is lost when Adam and Ever are sent out of the garden.
Gen 3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever--"
Clearly, the fruit of the tree of life had the power to kept Adam and Eve from dying physically. In other words, the natural condition of creation was that physical death was an integral feature of that creation. Without the benefit of eating the fruit of the tree of life, Adam and Eve will suffer physical death. And since entrance to the garden was closed, all those living outside and having no access to the fruit of the tree of life will naturally suffer physical death as it has been so appointed (Heb 9:27).
In Romans 11
Romans 11:2–6 (LEB) — 2 God has not rejected his people, whom he foreknew! Or do you not know, in the passage about Elijah, what the scripture says—how he appeals to God against Israel? 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have torn down your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life!” 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have left for myself seven thousand people who have not bent the knee to Baal.” 5 So in this way also at the present time, there is a remnant selected by grace. 6 But if by grace, it is no longer by works, for otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
Those foreknown were Israelites God knew previously who had not bent the knee to Baal.
jeremiah1five
Active Member
Everyone sooner or later bowed their knees to someone.
This is why salvation is OF THE LORD.
God delivered the Hebrews out of bondage while they were IN bondage.
God delivered Israel from their sins while they were sinners. This is why there is no mechanism for saving in the New Covenant by Jeremiah.
God used the Mosaic Covenant through which He saved Israel.
Um, unfortunately, all Israel is not saved.
Romans 11:25–26 (LEB) — 25 For I do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, of this mystery, so that you will not be wise in your own sight, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and so all Israel will be saved, just as it is written, “The deliverer will come out of Zion; he will turn away ungodliness from Jacob.
Romans 9:6–8 (LEB) — 6 But it is not as if the word of God had failed. For not all those who are descended from Israel are truly Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are descendants of Abraham, but “In Isaac will your descendants be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children by human descent who are children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as descendants.
Romans 10:1–4 (LEB) — 1 Brothers, the desire of my heart and my prayer to God on behalf of them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For ignoring the righteousness of God, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
And in Jeremiah
Jeremiah 4:14 (LEB) — 14 Cleanse your heart from wickedness, O Jerusalem, so that you may be saved. How long will your thoughts of mischief dwell in your inner part?
Jeremiah 31:7 (LEB) — 7 For thus says Yahweh, “Sing for joy for Jacob with gladness, and shout out for the head of the nations. Proclaim, praise, and say, ‘Save, O Yahweh, your people, the remnant of Israel.’
jeremiah1five
Active Member
You just can't help yourself.
Straight-up contradict God any chance you get.
26 and so all Israel will be saved, just as it is written, “The deliverer will come out of Zion; he will turn away ungodliness from Jacob" (Romans 11:26.)
God says right there "ALL ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED."
And you say, "All Israel shall NOT be saved."
In this life people can do that. And unless one repents then the judge is right at YOUR door. Men keep storing up sin day in and day out. And while it seems the unrighteous seem to prosper while the good guy finishes last, we all must wait until judgment day for all that garbage in men to come out in the wash when they stand - or should I say, KNEEL before the Lord.
And what happened before the deliverer came out of Zion?
And btw, is Judas ultimately saved?
jeremiah1five
Active Member
Judas? Of course he's saved.
He brought forth fruits worthy of repentance when he threw the money back at the priests who didn't want it because it was blood money. Judas confessed his sin, repented by giving back the money, and what the priests should have done which was according to Scripture for being complicit in the death of an innocent man and that was to take him outside the city and stone him. Instead, the priests said, "See ye to that!" In other words, "You handle it!"
He did. He went out and hanged himself because no one that day was interested in performing their oaths to the Lord and obeying Him. For the unrepentant who see unrepentance in others instead of God's grace, they condemn Judas and consign him to the eternal flames of hell while they hypocritically seek the Lord to save their unsaved mother or unsaved wife or unsaved child. On one hand they pray the Lord for the salvation of a loved one but on the other hand it's [Judas] "Go to hell!"
There's something wrong with that picture. But you won't see it that way because you're one who points their wicked finger at an apostle of the lamb and say, "Sinner! Sinner!"
That night they're kneeling in prayer asking God to save their 6-year-old daughter.
In Revelation it says Judas' name will be written on the foundation of the wall of the new city, New Jerusalem. What an honor. Judas was promised a throne by Christ. That is so cool. Everyone in the whole world who've read the Bible see what Judas did and send him to hell. They do that while blind to their own unrepentant sinful hearts. Now watch everyone, prove me right.
civic
Active Member
Nowhere in scripture does it say that Judas was saved or possessed eternal life. In fact it declares just the opposite. The bible teaches that Judas was the son of perdition from the beginning. Jesus said of Judas it would of been better off for him to not even been born than to betray the Son of Man.
John 6:63-65
The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray Him. 65 He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."
John 6:70-71
Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!" 71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray Him.)
John 12:4-6
But one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, who was later to betray Him, objected, 5 "Why wasn't this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year's wages." 6 He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it.
John 13:10-11
10 Jesus answered, "A person who has had a bath needs only to wash his feet; his whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you." 11 For He knew who was going to betray Him, and that was why He said not every one was clean.
John 17:12
12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.
The same word is used to describe the very man of sin, the antichrist in:
2 Thessalonians 2:13-
Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.
STRONGS NT 684: ἀπώλεια
ἀπώλεια, ἀπωλείας, ἡ (from ἀπόλλυμι, which see);
1. actively, a destroying, utter destruction: as, of vessels, Romans 9:22; τοῦ μύρου, waste, Mark 14:4 (in Matthew 26:8 without a genitive) (in Polybius 6, 59, 5 consumption, opposed to τήρησις); the putting of a man to death, Acts 25:16 Rec.; by metonymy, a destructive thing or opinion: in plural 2 Peter 2:2 Rec.; but the correct reading ἀσελγείαις was long ago adopted here.
2. passively, a perishing, ruin, destruction;
a. in general: τό ἀργύριον σου σύν σοι εἴη εἰς ἀπώλειαν, let thy money perish with thee, Acts 8:20; βυρθίζειν τινα εἰς ὄλεθρον καί ἀπώλειαν, with the included idea of misery, 1 Timothy 6:9; αἱρέσεις ἀπωλείας destructive opinions, 2 Peter 2:1; ἐπάγειν ἑαυτοῖς ἀπώλειαν, ibid. cf. 2 Peter 2:3.
b. in particular, the destruction which consists in the loss of eternal life, eternal misery, perdition, the lot of those excluded from the kingdom of God: Revelation 17:8, 11, cf. Revelation 19:20; Philippians 3:19; 2 Peter 3:16; opposed to ἡ περιποίησις τῆς ψυχῆς, Hebrews 10:39; to ἡ ζωή, Matthew 7:13; to σωτηρία, Philippians 1:28. ὁ υἱός τῆς ἀπωλείας, a man doomed to eternal misery (a Hebraism, see υἱός, 2): 2 Thessalonians 2:3 (of Antichrist); John 17:12 (of Judas, the traitor); ἡμέρα κρίσεως καί ἀπωλείας τῶν ἀσεβῶν, 2 Peter 3:7. (In secular authors from Polybius as above (but see Aristotle, probl. 17, 3, 2, vol. ii., p. 916{a}, 26; 29, 14, 10 ibid. 952^b, 26; Nicom. eth. 4, 1 ibid. 1120{a}, 2, etc.); often in the Sept. and O. T. Apocrypha.)
Matt 26:23-25
23 Jesus replied, "The one who has dipped his hand into the bowl with me will betray me. 24 The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born."
25 Then Judas, the one who would betray him, said, "Surely not I, Rabbi?"
Jesus answered, "Yes, it is you."
Acts 1:16-19
16 and said, "Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through the mouth of David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus— 17 he was one of our number and shared in this ministry."
18 (With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. 19 Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)
Acts 1:24-26
Show us which of these two you have chosen 25 to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs." 26 Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.
Ps 109:4-8
In return for my friendship they accuse me,
but I am a man of prayer.
5 They repay me evil for good,
and hatred for my friendship.
6 Appoint an evil man to oppose him;
let an accuser stand at his right hand.
7 When he is tried, let him be found guilty,
and may his prayers condemn him.
8 May his days be few;
may another take his place of leadership.
hope this helps !!!
Um, the name Judas Iscariot, does not appear in Revelation.
TibiasDad
Active Member
Rev21:14The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Judas was never an “apostle” he was merely a disciple. The disciples became Apostles after the great commission was given to them. Judas was dead by that time.
Doug
brightfame52
Active Member
You still dont understand foreknew
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