Gods Innate Attributes

Sir, thank you for your time in responding, I want to think about what you have said before posting back, plus ~ I have other things I must get done that's on my list to do.

But, I'll take a few minutes with your last words to me.

What you believe is your own work of the flesh, God does not force any man to sin~in word or deed, in any manner you can think of. He may prevent man from doing certain thing, but never forces or even tempt man to disobey. He may allow it, but never the cause of man's disobedience.

Example would help: Please consider:


The scriptures tell us that God indeed hardened Pharaoh's heart~yet, in what sense is this so, and God not be the author of Pharaoh's sin and destruction? And still be able to righteously judge Pharaoh in that day at the Great White Throne Judgment? Did God work in Pharaoh's heart to harden him? Or, did God just leave him to the deceitfulness of his own heart, without showing any mercy to him? Of course the latter is true. No man has right to God's mercy, we all deserve his wrath, it is of pure mercy that anyone of us are saved from sin and condemnation and have a sound, spiritual mind after Jesus Christ.
ditto God does not cause man to sin- thats calvinism not scripture. I side with Olsen below.

Roger Olsons definition here :

Most people know that Arminians do not believe that God micromanages history or human lives–especially not in terms of evil. That is, Arminians do not believe that God designs, foreordains or renders certain sinful acts. Sin and evil are included in God’s consequent will, not God’s antecedent will. God governs them but does not design, foreordain or render them certain. I have expressed my own overall view of God’s providence this way: “God is in charge but not in control.” However, some Arminians objected to that. I’m not going to repeat my explanation or defense of that here.
 
It isn't my opinion. Contradictions cannot actually exist. Which is to say that two truth claims that contradict each other cannot BOTH be true in the same context.

The concept of timeless existence is self-contradictory and is therefore false - by definition.


Now it is you who are committing a stolen concept fallacy!

You cannot read the holy scriptures without reason, Red! Every attempt you make to undermine reason, uses reason to make the attempt! You affirm the validity of reason by opening your mouth to utter the first intelligible syllable of your argument against it. You defeat your own position by just showing up to debate it!

Any doctrine that is irrational is false because that's what it means for something to be false. Without reason there is no such thing as true or false.


No, they aren't.


God is indeed great beyond my ability to comprehend and His way are beyond finding out but not because He's irrational but because I don't have access to the information nor the context from which to even begin to interpret or understand that information. God's ways are HIGHER than our ways, NOT LOWER! God is not irrational! Indeed, John 1 tells us that God IS Reason (Logos). He could no more be irrational than He could be unrighteous!


That verse is not an excuse to believe whatever wacko irrational nonsense that we want. All you're doing here is creating an all inclusive doctrinal trump card that you can toss down anytime someone points out that your doctrine is contradictory.


I do not change the meaning of eternal to mean timeless, Calvin did that, Augustine did that, Aristotle and Plato did that. I am saying that there is no such thing as timelessness. It's a contradiction!


There is no such thing as "Greek logic". Logic is logic, the fact that the Greek get credit for it is only because theirs are the oldest writings we have that talk about it. They didn't invent it, they simply wrote down its principles. Sound reason is nothing at all other than conforming one's mind to the limitation of reality. Reality exists and it does not contradict itself. That's all of logic in one sentence.


All irrelevant doctrine that isn't so by virtue of the fact that you showed up to state it.


No. As normally taught, the doctrine of Omnipresence is entirely derived from Plato and was imported into the church by Augustine in the 5th century.


No, it flatly does not declare or even imply any such thing. If it did, it would falsify the scriptures.


Nonsense. Unbiblical, irrational stupidity that no one (that we have any record of) believed at all before Aristotle (4th century BC). Such a notion is COMPLETELY foreign to the bible.


Those verses simply do not teach what you are saying they teach. You are reading your doctrine into the text.

Those verses say nothing at all the contradicts a single syllable of what I said!


Saying it doesn't make it so.


Neither time nor space exist except as ideas inside a thinking mind.


Nonsense.


You're great at stating your doctrine but naked as a new born baby when it comes to establishing as actual truth.


There are many possibilities, not the least of which is that this biblical statement is hyperbole. But even if it is literally true, there are several possible ways, all of which require one degree of speculation or another but none of which are irrational, which is the point.


God is able to be know everything that He wants to know, Red!


Saying it doesn't make it so.


Those verses do not say what you just said! You are reading your doctrine into the text.


Those verses do not say what you just said! You are reading your doctrine into the text.


Saying it doesn't make it so and if reason doesn't work, as you suggest, there'd be no way for you to even know this nor any way for me to fix it.

Indeed, if your doctrine is true, I believe precisely and ONLY what God predestined that I would believe and have no ability whatsoever to do otherwise.
Eternal / Exhaustive Divine Decree is false.

The story of Sodom and Gomorrah seems to present problems for Calvinism 's (EDD ).

How do the Calvinists answer?

1. God determined that Sodom would become so wicked.

2. God determined that their wickedness would include sexual perversion.

3. God determined that Lot would offer his daughters to be abused..

4. Even though God brought Lot's wife out of the city, God determined that she would be lost, in spite of having warned her not to look back.

5. Why would God warn her if she was determined before the foundation of the world to be lost?

6. God determined that Lot's daughters would commit incest with their father.

7. And is further compounded by what Jesus Himself said :That there was actually a way that the Sodomites could’ve been saved (Matthew 11:23).

how do people believe these things about our Holy God ?

Remember God delivers from evil and does not cause evil

Matthew 6:9-13

“Pray, then, in this way:

‘Our Father who is in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10 ‘Your kingdom come.
Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.
11 ‘Give us this day [e]our daily bread.
12 ‘And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 ‘And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. [For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.

John 17:15
I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one.

2 Timothy 4:18
The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed, and will bring me safely to His heavenly kingdom; to Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

2 Thessalonians 3:2-3
And that we may be delivered from wicked and evil men. For not all have faith. But the Lord is faithful. He will establish you and guard you against the evil one.

James 1:13
When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone.

1 Chronicles 4:10
And Jabez called on the God of Israel, saying, Oh that thou wouldest bless me indeed, and enlarge my coast, and that thine hand might be with me, and that thou wouldest keep me from evil, that it may not grieve me! And God granted him that which he requested.

Psalm 121:7,8
The LORD shall preserve thee from all evil: he shall preserve thy soul…

Jeremiah 15:21
And I will deliver thee out of the hand of the wicked, and I will redeem thee out of the hand of the terrible.

hope this helps !!!
 
View of predication?


What are you talking about?

You don't have "ears to hear". (sarcasm).....

Is this the way you're going to treat everything I write? I'm going to start ignoring half of what you write. You're trying to drive a narrative and I'm not going to "play along" with you.

Love has no meaning outside of relationship. Relationship has no meaning except between people with a mind that works.

Nonsense. Love can exist without relationship. God loved the entire world. He didn't have a relationship with the world when God loved the world.

Meaningless.


Nonsense.

First of all, God does love everyone, aside perhaps from Satan and the demons.

Secondly, God hates sinners. Not just sin, He hates evil people. The bible tells us this over and over and over again. All you have to do is read it.

No, that is not a contradiction. Love and hate are not mutually exclusive. You can love someone enough to warn them that their actions will result in death and you can even provide for a way of escape. In this way, God loves every human man, woman and child that have ever existed. But He also loves the righteous and He loves Himself and will not permit sin to enter into His realm both for His own sake and for the sake of those who seek Him by faith.

You're conflating. I never said anything about sin entering God's realm. (not that God didn't dwell among us. I suppose you're not focusing upon the love on full display in the Incarnation?)

God did MORE than just love someone enough to tell then they are sinful. God partook of flesh and bone. Suffering through confinement and filthy weakness. The limitless confined to limits.....

That is LOVE for everyone.

It is offered to us as a free gift but it wasn't free. It cost God His life's blood. Thus, forgiveness and mercy is not arbitrary but just! If it were not then Jesus need not have died.

Based upon His priestly work in KNOWING the fallen experience of our humanity. Jesus died in love.

Justice requires your death. My death. Justice wouldn't have given us an opportunity to recognize our own sin.
 
You don't have "ears to hear". (sarcasm).....

Is this the way you're going to treat everything I write? I'm going to start ignoring half of what you write. You're trying to drive a narrative and I'm not going to "play along" with you.



Nonsense. Love can exist with relationship. God loved the entire world. He didn't have a relationship with the world when God loved.



You're conflating. I never said anything about sin entering God's realm. (not that God didn't dwell among us. I suppose you're not focusing upon the love on full display in the Incarnation?)

God did MORE than just love someone enough to tell then they are sinful. God partook of flesh and bone. Suffering through confinement and filthy weakness. The limitless confined to limits.....

That is LOVE for everyone.



Based upon His priestly work in KNOWING the fallen experience of our humanity. Jesus died in love.

Justice requires your death. My death. Justice wouldn't have given us an opportunity to recognize our own sin.
the new poster is being nice to you lol

 
What does it mean to love? Love is so pure, so unselfish, so absolute it'll never be fully understood this side of heaven unless this happens.
But if we love one another, God abides (lives and remains) in us and His love (that love which is essentially His) is brought to completion (to its full maturity, runs its full course, is perfected) in us! 1 John 4:12.

We see God’s love in Jesus Christ. We feel his love and compassion through his Word and Spirit. God has always been love, but the world never comprehended it until Jesus came, the divine manifestation of that love.

Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. John 15:13

Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 1 John 4:7–8

By the way Conversations are two way streets. What is your definition of love?
You first!

Please, please, please just answer my question directly...

Tell me, in the context of what you just said above, and what you've continued to repeat over the last two posts.....

What does it mean to love? Do you know?
 
You first!

Please, please, please just answer my question directly...

Tell me, in the context of what you just said above, and what you've continued to repeat over the last two posts.....

What does it mean to love? Do you know?

1Jn 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
 
Sir, thank you for your time in responding, I want to think about what you have said before posting back, plus ~ I have other things I must get done that's on my list to do.
I totally get it! Take all the time you need!

What you believe is your own work of the flesh, God does not force any man to sin~in word or deed, in any manner you can think of. He may prevent man from doing certain thing, but never forces or even tempt man to disobey. He may allow it, but never the cause of man's disobedience.
I agree completely but the doctrinal positions you've expressed in our exchange lead me to believe that you were a Calvinist, or at the very least, Calvinistic and so I thought you believed in God predestined everything.

Was I wrong?

If so, then my last point doesn't hold.

Example would help: Please consider:


The scriptures tell us that God indeed hardened Pharaoh's heart~yet, in what sense is this so, and God not be the author of Pharaoh's sin and destruction? And still be able to righteously judge Pharaoh in that day at the Great White Throne Judgment? Did God work in Pharaoh's heart to harden him? Or, did God just leave him to the deceitfulness of his own heart, without showing any mercy to him? Of course the latter is true. No man has right to God's mercy, we all deserve his wrath, it is of pure mercy that anyone of us are saved from sin and condemnation and have a sound, spiritual mind after Jesus Christ.
So, first of all, if you'd refrain from placing the scripture reference inside a quote box and instead simply include the quote within your own material, then they'd survive into my quotes of your posts and things might be easier for others to follow. Just a suggestion.

The bible actually records both that God hardened Pharaoh's heart and that Pharaoh hardened his own heart (see Exodus 8:15 & 32 and I Samuel 6:6) and both are true but as your comments suggest, it isn't because God sprinkled some sort of spiritual heart hardening agent onto Pharaoh's head. Pharaoh could have acted differently but chose to be stubborn and God pushed the issue by performing miracle after miracle after undeniable miracle. It was precisely the miracles themselves, which God performed, that further hardened Pharaoh's heart.

Sounds to me like we probably agree on more than we disagree.
 
No. I said what I meant. The is no need to assume I meant something I didn't write.
It wasn't me being hostile. I thought it was a typo.

It is relative to the broader subject of God and our existence.
Okay, if you say so. It still isn't relevant to the topic being discussed right now.

No. It doesn't. You're stating facts without evidence.
That's my line! You are the one making an affirmative claim here, not me! If you say that God created love then prove it! Give the chapter and verse that says anything even remotely similar to this claim of yours.

You won't do it because no such chapter and verse exists!

No we do not. We prove it every day of our lives. You don't love me like God loves me. I can rely upon the love of God. I can't rely upon you to love me.
We do not love as well as God loves, as consistently as God loves or as fully as God loves but that does not mean that our love for God and for our family and friends is a completely different thing. It is still love, it is still righteousness, it is still godly when we act in another's best interest, when we prefer another over ourselves, when we lay down our lives, as some have done, for those we love. Loving God and loving others is the very purpose and meaning of our existence. It is why we were created in the first place!

Similar is not identical. If you stop trying to correct me, you would understand what I'm saying.
I am responding to what you actually say (misidentifying one comment as a typo not withstanding). If I misunderstand something, correct me but I am not responsible for figuring out what you mean.

Why would I want to find common ground in your mistakes?
Don't be a fool.

Evidence is evidence no matter if you recognize it as such or not.
But evidence is not evidence by virtue of the fact the you call it evidence.

It might help if you stop assuming you're superior to others.
I've made no such edited assumption, edited!

edited for personal attack, name calling.
 
This doesn't answer the question.

It does to a certain degree. It destroys certain claims relative to loving someone.

Claiming to love while hating those just like you is a sign of false love. Satan loves his own. Those who obey him. God loves those that do not obey Him.

See the difference?
 
That's my line! You are the one making an affirmative claim here, not me! If you say that God created love then prove it! Give the chapter and verse that says anything even remotely similar to this claim of yours.

You won't do it because no such chapter and verse exists!

Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

We handle God's love imperfectly. We are His creation but we are peccable. Incomplete. As such, we only employ His gifts imperfectly.

We do not love as well as God loves, as consistently as God loves or as fully as God loves but that does not mean that our love for God and for our family and friends is a completely different thing. It is still love, it is still righteousness, it is still godly when we act in another's best interest, when we prefer another over ourselves, when we lay down our lives, as some have done, for those we love. Loving God and loving others is the very purpose and meaning of our existence. It is why we were created in the first place!

We almost always act in our self interest. What we do for our own is self serving. We do for our own what we will not do for others.

It is extraordinarily rare that a human being does not act in his own self interest.
 
You don't have "ears to hear". (sarcasm).....

Is this the way you're going to treat everything I write? I'm going to start ignoring half of what you write. You're trying to drive a narrative and I'm not going to "play along" with you.
You are reading intentions into what I say that do not exist. I am responding directly to the things you say. That's it and that's all.

Nonsense. Love can exist without relationship. God loved the entire world. He didn't have a relationship with the world when God loved the world.
What are you saying? God is their Creator! How is that not a relationship?

God exists, the world exists, all the people in the world exist and God is fully aware, not only of them as individuals, but as a group and simply as human beings which He created. Is it really that difficult to understand that God loves His creation merely by virtue of the fact that He's the Creator?

You're conflating. I never said anything about sin entering God's realm. (not that God didn't dwell among us. I suppose you're not focusing upon the love on full display in the Incarnation?)
I do not understand how this connects to anything I said.

God did MORE than just love someone enough to tell then they are sinful.
I didn't suggest otherwise. It was merely one example of how someone who otherwise hate someone can show love toward them.

God partook of flesh and bone. Suffering through confinement and filthy weakness. The limitless confined to limits.....

That is LOVE for everyone.
Amen!

And yet, God HATES the ungodly! Visa Vi - love and hate are not mutually exclusive!

Proverbs 6:16 These six things the Lord hates,
Yes, seven are an abomination to [a]Him:
17 A[b] proud look,
A lying tongue,
Hands that shed innocent blood,
18 A heart that devises wicked plans,
Feet that are swift in running to evil,
19 A false witness who speaks lies,
And one who sows discord among brethren.

Psalm 11:5 The Lord tests the righteous, But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates.


Based upon His priestly work in KNOWING the fallen experience of our humanity. Jesus died in love.
This much is not in dispute.

Justice requires your death. My death.
No, it doesn't. One man can die for another so long as the one doing the dying is doing so voluntarily and is himself innocent of a crime deserving of death.

Justice wouldn't have given us an opportunity to recognize our own sin.
But mercy did! Christ's death, which satisfied the demands of justice, is what make that mercy possible. Otherwise, you're arguing that God is unjust. Not the position I'd be wanting to defend, if I were you.
 
It does to a certain degree. It destroys certain claims relative to loving someone.

Claiming to love while hating those just like you is a sign of false love. Satan loves his own. Those who obey him. God loves those that do not obey Him.

See the difference?
Of course I see the difference but it doesn't have anything to do with the question!

Why is this so hard? Given the context of what's been said in this thread, it's a single sentence answer!

What does it mean to love someone?
 
Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

We handle God's love imperfectly. We are His creation but we are peccable. Incomplete. As such, we only employ His gifts imperfectly.
Yeah, like I said, you'd not present a single syllable of any verse that says that God created love.

We almost always act in our self interest.
So what?

What we do for our own is self serving. We do for our own what we will not do for others.
The two are not mutually exclusive!

It was greatly to our benefit for Jesus to die for our sins and to be raised from the dead for our salvation. It was also greatly to God's benefit as well. It was a price God considered well worth paying.


It is extraordinarily rare that a human being does not act in his own self interest.
That isn't true at all! On the contrary, people act as their own destroyers more often than not.

Every government welfare check is an exercise in self-destruction both for the society that produced the check and for him who cashed it.

My wife works at a couple of different day care centers and she comes home all the time with stories about how parents are actively destroying their kid's lives and making their own lives miserable in the process.

Proverbs 11:19 As righteousness leads to life, So he who pursues evil pursues it to his own death.​
 
You first!

Please, please, please just answer my question directly...

Tell me, in the context of what you just said above, and what you've continued to repeat over the last two posts.....

What does it mean to love? Do you know?
A feeling of deep affection.
 
You are reading intentions into what I say that do not exist. I am responding directly to the things you say. That's it and that's all.


What are you saying? God is their Creator! How is that not a relationship?

God committed his love toward us in that we yet sinners, Christ died for man. Did you forget those words? What about the fact that God purposed Christ before man was ever formed.

Let me tell you something about actually loving someone. Especially someone that is made in your own likeness. I loved my children before they were ever born.

And yet, God HATES the ungodly! Visa Vi - love and hate are not mutually exclusive!

Sure they are. You can't hate your brother and love God. We know this because the Scriptures declare so.

Hating sin is different than loving your own. I love my children regardless of how they sin. God does too. It is referenced in the Scriptures as "natural affection".

No, it doesn't. One man can die for another so long as the one doing the dying is doing so voluntarily and is himself innocent of a crime deserving of death.

There is no law that always for another person to take your place and serve your sentence of death. If there were such "justice", then many criminals with be free right now. Prove it.

What you don't understand about love is it must first be pure. Then love does not seek "its" own. The way you love is to "seek your own". All humans do. You do. I do. God doesn't.

You need to study more. The Atonement required the death of God to satisfy the demands of pure and complete love. Not justice. Love.

But mercy did! Christ's death, which satisfied the demands of justice, is what make that mercy possible. Otherwise, you're arguing that God is unjust. Not the position I'd be wanting to defend, if I were you.

I'm not you. God loves. Justice demands death. In fact, justice demands your IMMEDIATE DEATH.

Why are you not dead?
 
Of course I see the difference but it doesn't have anything to do with the question!

Why is this so hard? Given the context of what's been said in this thread, it's a single sentence answer!

What does it mean to love someone?

It is never a single sentence answer. Never. It is complicated and demands more.

I posted the verse that describes what love isn't. You can't say you love God and hate your brother. However, you demand that God both love and hate your brother.
 
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