civic
Active Member
yet we all start out as unbelievers.
and believers struggle all the time with unbelief.
Gods Inability to save
- Thread starter civic
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and believers struggle all the time with unbelief.
Dizerner
Active Member
It's a perfectly valid critique to point out evasion. No one gets to set themselves up in a position beyond critique.
Yes, Presbyterian Covenant Theology is one way to handle the question addressed in the OP.
To say the question is "irrelevant" or "off-topic" is beyond absurd and completely irrational.
But, considering the unreasonableness of the response, moving on is definitely something I will do.
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
what is the gospel
he who believes is not condemned - what do they believe in? That God said not to have sex before marriage,. or did they trust in God to save them eternally from the wage of sin which condemned them.
again,, he who believes is not condemnedThis is just one example of many I can provide.
Mark 9
;A man in the crowd answered, “Teacher, I brought you my son, who is possessed by a spirit that has robbed him of speech. 18Whenever it seizes him, it throws him to the ground. He foams at the mouth, gnashes his teeth and becomes rigid. I asked your disciples to drive out the spirit, but they could not.”
19“You unbelieving generation,” Jesus replied, “how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy to me.”
20;So they brought him. When the spirit saw Jesus, it immediately threw the boy into a convulsion. He fell to the ground and rolled around, foaming at the mouth.
21Jesus asked the boy’s father, “How long has he been like this?”
“From childhood,” he answered. 22“It has often thrown him into fire or water to kill him. But if you can do anything, take pity on us and help us.”
23“‘If you can’?” said Jesus. “Everything is possible for one who believes.”
24;Immediately the boy’s father exclaimed, “I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!”
he who does not believe is condemned already
what belief is he talking about?
I think your missing the point
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
yesyet we all start out as unbelievers.
and believers struggle all the time with unbelief.
faith of a mustard seed can move a mountain.
Lord I believe, help me with my unbelief
and again, what are we trusting in that saves us?
GodsGrace
Active Member
Yes, but then we have that sticky situation of Romans 1 about the people under HIS wrath knowing the truth about HIM and the gospel but refusing to cease their sin because they love their sin more than the truth. This means that knowing the truth about HIS reality doesn't automatically bring one from a soul destroying unbelief to a to saving faith...
Faith is a trust and a hope in a claim to be true without proof, Heb 11:1, etc.
If you decide to withhold your faith until you have seen proof of the truth, then it is too late or the inevitable suffering of hell would bring even the devil to faith but he won't / can't.
For a person free of the enslavement to sin, that is, with their free will intact, they are not coerced by hearing the claim of the truth to believe or disbelieve the truth - it is open to each person's desires of what he thinks will bring him the most happiness. Saving faith can only arise before the proof is seen because once the truth is proven, the person is coerced by his knowledge of the future, by not his own deepest desires, to choose to accept the truth. Accepting a proposal of marriage is special; that way.
Satan et al refused to put their faith in YHWH's unproven claims of HIS divinity and the gospel. GOD wanted us to accept HIM on faith because that is the only proof HE had that we really wanted to live with HIM in a holy marriage, living within the confines of HIS righteous nature. HE didn't want to have people agree to be HIS Bride only because HE overwhelmed them with HIS power...HE wanted to marry those who heard HIS claims and who responded by thinking, "Yes, I want to live like that with HIM so I will accept HIM as my LORD and GOD and saviour from all sin and then see how this unproven hope proves out!" uncoerced by seeing / knowing the proof of the truth and the inevitable future.
Saving faith came before the proof of HIS divinity and eternal power because after that proof was given as per Romans 1, no one had a freedom of will to change their minds about these issues - they knew the future and were coerced by that knowledge and a coerced decision does not arise from the free will hopes of the person but from outside of his desires.
GOD is not a Borg willing to have a Stepford wife so HE will not marry anyone who has to be coerced by the truth to marry HIM, but will only marry those with the desire to receive who HE is what HE is offering without proof that HE can deliver.
So, since the creation of the physical universe proved HIS divinity and eternal power and Christ's death on the cross proved His ability to save of His sheep gone astray, Satan et al are not saved by knowing the full truth of GOD but, because they refused to trust by faith, an unproven hope before they saw the truth, they are now under HIS wrath, Rom 1:18, condemned already, Jn 3:18.
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
never said it did
But like romans 1 makes clear. they have no excuse. because God did not keep the truth from them, They hid the truth in their hearts. and created their own Gods.
To be precise, I believe that GOD's saving grace coerced my will that was enslaved to sin, (ie, not my free will) to bring me back to the free will decision I made in the distant past to accept HIM as my GOD and Saviour before I decided to test HIM by going my own way into rebellion.
brightfame52
Active Member
Offered? That's a fairytale
brightfame52
Active Member
He died for the ransomed. There's not one scripture saying that He died for all mankind
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
however
if he did not act.. then you would never believe
and since he acted. you believed no matter what
we can that forcing the matter
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
lol.. In your mind I deal in reality
Doug Brents
Active Member
Ahh, so John's letters are not Scripture? As I stated, 1 John 2:2 states clearly, even so clearly that blind people like yourself should be able to see it, that Jesus died not only for the Church but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD. I know it pains you, but wake up and accept Scripture for what it says. Quit hiding from the truth.
brightfame52
Active Member
1 Jn 2:2 the ransomed.
Doug Brents
Active Member
Your comment makes no sense.
1 John 2:2 - "My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."
John is talking to the Church (my little children), and he says that Jesus is the propitiation for our (the Church's) sins. But not only the Church's sins, but the sins of the whole world (everyone else's) as well. This is too clear, and if you cannot see it then you are being deliberately blind, and there is no hope or help for you.
brightfame52
Active Member
Its foolishness to you. I understand. John was an pastor to the saved jews, however, Christ propitiation went beyond an interest amongs jews. Thats all that means.
Ideed!
Rom 1:18+ says they believed in the truth but are still under HIS wrath. Therefore we can conclude that belief in the truth is not the same as saving faith.
James 2:19 Berean Standard Bible
You believe that God is one. Good for you! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. The Sh'mah is also then not saving faith.
I suggest that saving faith then really is an UNPROVEN faith as per Heb 11:1, that no belief based upon the proof of HIS divinity and eternal power is saving faith as it comes after the proof.
We are trusting that HE told us the truth about HIMself and the gospel and about election and damnation when HE made HIS proclamation before the foundation of the world to every creature under heaven (ever creature made in HIS image) as mentioned in Col 1:23.
I agree! HE acted and we had nothing to add to HIS action of grace by faith toward us as we were enslaved to sin and unable to participate IN ANY WAY in our own rebirth.
Doug Brents
Active Member
Nope, it is not foolishness to me.
2 Cor 5:14-15 - "For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; 15 and He died for all, so that those who live would no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose on their behalf."
One, Jesus, died for who? ALL!!
John 3:16 - "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life."
Whom did God love? All the world. And for whom did His Son die? All the world.
1 John 2:2 - "and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."
Jesus is the propitiation for whose sins? Not only ours, but for the whole world.
Rom 6:10 - "For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God."
Jesus died once for whom? ALL!!
And how do we know that the whole world was who He died for? Not only because it says so in Scripture so many times, but because all who are now in the Church were once dead to sin and part of the world too. There is no one who never sinned, so everyone has at one time been part of "the world" for whom Jesus died. He didn't die for His sheep. He died for sinners (Rom 5:8).
Since two verses later John tells us that the unbelievers in this world are condemned already, when do you think already started? Was it before the cross, before election and reprobation?
GodsGrace
Active Member
Presby...let me make this very clear to you....
GOD has ALWAYS revealed Himself to EVERY PERSON that ever lived.
And will continue to do so.
Whether or not you believe this or not is irrelevant because it's the truth.
Calvinists, for some reason, want to believe that they have §God all to themselves....
but NO.
God is for EVERYONE who wishes to be saved.
Read Romans 1:18-20 until you grasp what it is saying.
Romans 2 will be helpful too.
