God's attribute of Justice demands PSA

Okay, think this through with me.

Payments can have two stages or two parts.

If I leave money with someone and I stipulate "If they do X, then release these funds," that does not mean I did not actually pay for it.

I provisionally paid for it, the price was paid with a condition that has to be met.

I was listening to Jesse Morrell and at the start of his street preaching ministry he was evangelizing and a man was walking away and heard him say "Jesus died for your sins!" Then man turned and say, "Oh, he did? Then I'm good now," and he walked off.

But this false dilemma fallacy lodged a wrong conclusion in Morrell, and his ministry began to take a works oriented and self-righteous tone, where sinners need to be holy enough to be worthy to be saved, instead of resting in the sufficient grace of the Cross.

We reason, if Jesus paid it all, why is there anything more necessary then? The reason something more is necessary is not what our pride hopes—it's not so we can contribute a little more merit in the genuineness of our repentance and good works.

The price was fully paid only in Christ, and one must be joined to Christ to experience the payment. This does not logically mean double jeopardy, because the double jeopardy assumes a legal system that never allows for conditional payments.

So there is still something left to forgive. The atonement has application. It is not automatic, it has never been automatic, and it is a two stage atonement, the completion in Christ and the appropriation of the believer.

By accessing the already paid payment, the payment is transferred; not made again, not paid again, and not merited simply because there is a condition of some kind one has to meet.

This seems too "easy" and too "free" to our carnal nature, we don't want salvation to be so "easy," we want to feel like we really contributed some real work and holiness and penance and just a little bit of something to make what Jesus did even better.

It is our perennial temptation.
PSA, as formulated, is a Reform precept! There is a sense of substitution, in the sense of he went there on our behalf, but the “in place of” and literal “paid the price” aspect of PSA cannot be taken away from the theory, that is why I object to it.

I agree with your “provisional” rendering and think only that the use of PSA is not the wisest term to describe the atonement.

Doug
 
Paul pleads Gods mercy not His justice as the CHIEF of all sinners ! @dizerner

Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. 14 The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.

15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. 16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.

2 Peter 3:9 and 2 Tim 2:20-21.In Ephesians 2:3-5 we see that we “were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy […] made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)” – in other words, we were vessels of wrath but became vessels of mercy

Since God is immutable and self sufficient, God has no needs.

God doesn’t need to be appeased, satisfied or reconciled to us. We are the recipients of His grace, mercy , love and provision made possible via the atonement of Christ which expiates not propitiates(appeases an angry god ).

The atonement boils down to a proper understanding of Gods nature and character. PSA is a direct assault on His character.

hope this helps !!!
God has desires = 2 Peter 3:9 - "God is not willing that any should perish but all come to repentance"

Hebrew 6:17 = "In the same way God, desiring even more to demonstrate to the heirs of the promise the fact that His purpose is unchangeable, confirmed it with an oath, so that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to hold firmly to the hope set before us."

God desires spiritual pleasure = Hebrews 11:6 - "But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him."

Enoch pleased God = Hebrews 11:5 - By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

JESUS pleased God = Matthew 3:17 - "When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

JESUS pleased God = Isaiah 53:10 -
Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.


Preaching the Gospel pleases God =
1 Corinthians 1:21 - "For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe."
 
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PSA, as formulated, is a Reform precept! There is a sense of substitution, in the sense of he went there on our behalf, but the “in place of” and literal “paid the price” aspect of PSA cannot be taken away from the theory, that is why I object to it.

I agree with your “provisional” rendering and think only that the use of PSA is not the wisest term to describe the atonement.

Doug

I strongly disagree with this idea that PSA is only Calvinistic and started with Augustine or other such theories.

There are loud boisterous voices that affirm this over and over, but never offer any real proof or substance.

This is a deceiving spirit trying to twist God's holiness into an offensive thing, and not accepting what the Bible says about judgment.
 
I strongly disagree with this idea that PSA is only Calvinistic and started with Augustine or other such theories.

There are loud boisterous voices that affirm this over and over, but never offer any real proof or substance.

This is a deceiving spirit trying to twist God's holiness into an offensive thing, and not accepting what the Bible says about judgment.
PSA is deception from Calvin.

Are you a Calvinist now ?
 
I strongly disagree with this idea that PSA is only Calvinistic and started with Augustine or other such theories.

There are loud boisterous voices that affirm this over and over, but never offer any real proof or substance.

This is a deceiving spirit trying to twist God's holiness into an offensive thing, and not accepting what the Bible says about judgment.

Theopedia

The Penal-Substitution Theory of the atonement was formulated by the 16th century Reformers as an extension of Anselm's Satisfaction theory. Anselm's theory was correct in introducing the satisfaction aspect of Christ's work and its necessity; however the Reformers saw it as insufficient because it was referenced to God's honor rather than his justice and holiness and was couched more in terms of a commercial transaction than a penal substitution. This Reformed view says simply that Christ died for man, in man's place, taking his sins and bearing them for him. The bearing of man's sins takes the punishment for them and sets the believer free from the penal demands of the law: The righteousness of the law and the holiness of God are satisfied by this substitution.

Wikipedia

Penal substitution (sometimes, esp. in older writings, called forensic theory)[1][2] is a theory of the atonement within Protestant Christian theology, which declares that Christ, voluntarily submitting to God the Father's plan, was punished (penalized) in the place of sinners (substitution), thus satisfyingthe demands of justice and propitiation, so God can justly forgive sins making us at one with God (atonement). It began with the German Reformationleader Martin Luther and continued to develop within the Calvinist tradition[1][2][3][4][5] as a specific understanding of substitutionary atonement. The penal model teaches that the substitutionary nature of Jesus' death is understood in the sense of a substitutionary fulfilment of legal demands for the offenses of sins.

Here are a couple of sites about the historical origins of PSA.

Doug
 
Here are a couple of sites about the historical origins of PSA.

I reject their claims, which are not based on the right premises or definitions.

I mean, the fact that the same people don't see it when Scripture plainly describes it, ruins their credibility with me, for one.

There is a highly interpretative element to what one thinks "describes" something theologically.

As seen when what to me is a flat out description of the sin nature, is denied by those espoused to its denial.
 
Wrath for every sinner but absolutely no wrath for Christ?
Wrath for every sinner that will not turn from his sin. Go do a word search for wrath and read where it appears and to whom it is applied and to whom it is not applied. That is what I did when I attempted to PROVE PSA was true and the Bible taught that God placed our wrath upon Jesus … and what I found in scripture was something completely unexpected. My teachers had misled me.

Read and decide for yourself what GOD says is true.

Here are TWO “witnesses”:

  • [Romans 9:18-24 NKJV] 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
  • [Ezekiel 18:19-23 NKJV] 19 "Yet you say, 'Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?' Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. 20 "The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. 21 "But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 "None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 "Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?" says the Lord GOD, "[and] not that he should turn from his ways and live?
Romans testifies that there are both “vessels of wrath” and “vessels of mercy” and The Potter (God) created both for their purpose … God does not need to punish another “vessel” to transform a vessel from one category to the other … the Potter has the right to create both: each for its purpose.

Ezekiel testifies that the sins of those who turn from evil “shall not be remembered”. God, and God alone, has the right to remember or to not remember any and all acts done. There is no talk of transfer of guilt … the whole topic in this chapter is about how the guilt is NOT TRANSFERRED to the innocent. That is NOT how God does things, God is reprimanding the people because that is exactly how MEN think about Justice. God simply “remembers no more”.

There are more verses with more testimonies about God and wrath if you choose to look them up and read them for yourself. I have provided TWO WITNESSES to establish the fact. It is for you to accept or reject the testimony of God at this time. It is for God to give you eyes to see either now or later.

My job is just to speak truth when asked. I have done my job.
 
My job is just to speak truth when asked. I have done my job.

I understand your perspective, and appreciate any sincerity you have.

However, you are clearly severely misusing and abusing Ezekiel 18 and Romans 9.

Ezekiel 18 is not writing against substitutionary atonement or original sin, as the Pelagians would have it.

Nor is Romans 9 writing against free will and unlimited atonement, as the Calvinists would have it.

You seem to have some strange misguided attempt to marry both errors.

I have plenty of posts that go into depth to illustrate the above two points.
 
I understand your perspective, and appreciate any sincerity you have.

However, you are clearly severely misusing and abusing Ezekiel 18 and Romans 9.

Ezekiel 18 is not writing against substitutionary atonement or original sin, as the Pelagians would have it.

Nor is Romans 9 writing against free will and unlimited atonement, as the Calvinists would have it.

You seem to have some strange misguided attempt to marry both errors.

I have plenty of posts that go into depth to illustrate the above two points.
he is spot on exposing your erroneous views of Romans 9 try refuting them with some exegesis instead of the poisoning of the well fallacy.
 
I reject their claims, which are not based on the right premises or definitions.

I mean, the fact that the same people don't see it when Scripture plainly describes it, ruins their credibility with me, for one.

There is a highly interpretative element to what one thinks "describes" something theologically.

As seen when what to me is a flat out description of the sin nature, is denied by those espoused to its denial.
Why would you reject the historical facts on the origin of PSA ?

And you see the scriptures plainly defending the 3 heresies of kenosis, PSA and annihilation. Pot calling kettle.

FYI- the greatest heretic in the church history brought his pagan,gnostic, manichean doctrine of original sin and married it with Christianity. Even Calvin and Luther and many modern Calvinist admit the doctrine came from augustine.

Learn your church history and get your facts straight and know where your beliefs originate from. This ruins your credibility not theirs.

hope this helps !!!
 
Theopedia

The Penal-Substitution Theory of the atonement was formulated by the 16th century Reformers as an extension of Anselm's Satisfaction theory. Anselm's theory was correct in introducing the satisfaction aspect of Christ's work and its necessity; however the Reformers saw it as insufficient because it was referenced to God's honor rather than his justice and holiness and was couched more in terms of a commercial transaction than a penal substitution. This Reformed view says simply that Christ died for man, in man's place, taking his sins and bearing them for him. The bearing of man's sins takes the punishment for them and sets the believer free from the penal demands of the law: The righteousness of the law and the holiness of God are satisfied by this substitution.

Wikipedia

Penal substitution (sometimes, esp. in older writings, called forensic theory)[1][2] is a theory of the atonement within Protestant Christian theology, which declares that Christ, voluntarily submitting to God the Father's plan, was punished (penalized) in the place of sinners (substitution), thus satisfyingthe demands of justice and propitiation, so God can justly forgive sins making us at one with God (atonement). It began with the German Reformationleader Martin Luther and continued to develop within the Calvinist tradition[1][2][3][4][5] as a specific understanding of substitutionary atonement. The penal model teaches that the substitutionary nature of Jesus' death is understood in the sense of a substitutionary fulfilment of legal demands for the offenses of sins.

Here are a couple of sites about the historical origins of PSA.

Doug
Exactly brother !

And there are dozens of other sites that confirm the above including many that are Reformed.
 
Wrath for every sinner that will not turn from his sin. Go do a word search for wrath and read where it appears and to whom it is applied and to whom it is not applied. That is what I did when I attempted to PROVE PSA was true and the Bible taught that God placed our wrath upon Jesus … and what I found in scripture was something completely unexpected. My teachers had misled me.

Read and decide for yourself what GOD says is true.

Here are TWO “witnesses”:

  • [Romans 9:18-24 NKJV] 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
  • [Ezekiel 18:19-23 NKJV] 19 "Yet you say, 'Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?' Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. 20 "The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. 21 "But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 "None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 "Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?" says the Lord GOD, "[and] not that he should turn from his ways and live?
Romans testifies that there are both “vessels of wrath” and “vessels of mercy” and The Potter (God) created both for their purpose … God does not need to punish another “vessel” to transform a vessel from one category to the other … the Potter has the right to create both: each for its purpose.

Ezekiel testifies that the sins of those who turn from evil “shall not be remembered”. God, and God alone, has the right to remember or to not remember any and all acts done. There is no talk of transfer of guilt … the whole topic in this chapter is about how the guilt is NOT TRANSFERRED to the innocent. That is NOT how God does things, God is reprimanding the people because that is exactly how MEN think about Justice. God simply “remembers no more”.

There are more verses with more testimonies about God and wrath if you choose to look them up and read them for yourself. I have provided TWO WITNESSES to establish the fact. It is for you to accept or reject the testimony of God at this time. It is for God to give you eyes to see either now or later.

My job is just to speak truth when asked. I have done my job.
If we take the biblical idea of 2 or 3 witnesses that every fact is confirmed as the bases for truth as taught by the OT and Jesus in John 5 then we can clearly see PSA falls short.

The only witness they have which is questionable comes from Isaiah 53. There is no other passage in all of Scripture that the doctrine known as PSA comes from. So PSA fails the truth test of having 2/3 witnesses to support the doctrine.

Of course the adherents of PSA will deny this until they are blue in the face but without their view of Isaiah 53 they have nothing.

As the old lyrics in the song say by Billy Preston:

nothing plus nothing leaves nothing, you gotta have something if you want to believe in me.

Its a big ZERO :) A goose egg
 
The Roots of PSA- its Origin is not from Scripture.

Anselm of Canterbury proposed a substitutionary atonement model, albeit not a fully developed theory. According to Anselm’s Cur Deus Homo, sin is not doing God’s will, which then “steals” His honor. As humans we are thus in debt to God and we owe him back the honor we stole by sinning. This honor must be appeased. For Anselm, “because God is infinite, any wound to his honor caused by the sins of Man must also be infinite, and the only way infinite satisfaction for these sins can be granted on behalf of man is by the voluntary death of Jesus, who is both God and Man.”


“If God is not paid the honor due Him, He is dishonored, having His honor taken from him. God’s honor is stolen by through sin. However, as long as he does not repay what he has stolen, he remains guilty. But it is not enough for him merely to repay what has been stolen; rather, because of the wrong which has been inflicted, he ought to repay more than he has stolen. For example, if someone who injures another’s health restores it, his doing so is insufficient payment unless he also gives some compensation for the painful wrong that was inflicted. Similarly, he who violates another’s honor does not sufficiently repay this honor unless, in proportion to the injury caused by the dishonoring, he makes some restitution which is acceptable to the one whom he dishonored. We must also note that when someone repays what he has stolen, he ought to return that which could not be exacted from him had he not stolen what belonged to another. Accordingly, then, everyone who sins is obliged to repay to God the honor which he has stolen. This [repayment of stolen honor] constitutes the satisfaction which every sinner is obliged to make to God… To forgive sin in this manner is identical with not punishing it. Now, in the absence of satisfaction, to order sin rightly is only to punish it; therefore, if sin is not punished, something disordered is forgiven… Therefore, it is not fitting that God should forgive sin that goes thus unpunished.” (Cur Deus Homo Chapter 11-12).
Punishment is a key concept to Anselm, but why? Anselm is often criticized for deriving his doctrine of salvation from Germanic tribal law. Anselm’s idea of satisfaction draws from the idea that in Germanic clans, atonement for grievances must be made. Within their framework it is possible for one person to stand in for another. So, in his mind, Anselm sees the need for someone to be punished for sin and that makes up his framework of Christ’s death. It’s important to note that in Anselm, there isn’t the concept that the Father punished Christ, it wasn’t the suffering of the divine wrath, but that God was satisfied by Christ’s punishment. The Father doesn’t punish Christ, and Christ bears no punishment. So we see in the 11th century a substitutionary atonement but not penal substitutionary atonement.

Just to point out, that’s over 1,000 years after Christ before we see the roots of PSA.


The Reformers​


The Reformers, as we know, claimed they were recovering the truth of the Gospel to align their doctrine with the New Testament and the earliest Christians. Believing the Middle Ages had corrupted Christianity, the Reformers looked to redefine many of the doctrines of the Church. Luther goes so far as to say that Christ becomes the greatest and only sinner on earth while on the cross. Luther adopted parts of Anselm’s ideas but with more of a dichotomy or conflict between the wrath of God and the love of God.

We see a very real development of penal substitutionary atonement theory in John Calvin. Calvin took Anselm’s groundwork and expanded in an even more legalistic way. He applied his understanding of criminal law to the equation - man is a criminal and must be punished by God, who is angered by sin. The Son of God is sent to earth to bear the immense wrath of the God of all for us so that God may then be merciful. Calvin says things like “God, then, must of necessity look upon us in the person of His own Son, or else he is bound to hate us and abhor us,” “For since by nature we are unclean, and utterly rejected and cursed by God,” and talks about the “hatred between him and us.” These concepts are foreign to us in the East and yet critical to penal substitutionary atonement. The Early Church had no concept of God imputing the guilt of our sins to Christ, and he, in our place, bearing the punishment we deserve. Christ making payment for our sins, which satisfies the wrath and the righteousness of God so that He could forgive sinners without compromising his holiness, is a late addition to Christian through.

One of the most well-known verses in the New Testament to my faith group growing up was Romans 3:23-26. It’s part of the “Road to Romans” evangelism track. It’s interesting to read it while contemplating penal atonement - nowhere does it say Christ is punished in our place (we’ll tackle the word “propitiation” in just a minute). The same is true for the verses cited in favor of penal substitution - nowhere do they say Christ was a substitution, that Christ was punished by the Father, or that God’s wrath had to be sated by Christ.

Because of the fall, our ability to remain in union with God was damaged.

Now I want to be clear here - I have not been discussing atonement in general, but the specific doctrine of penal atonement substitution - the idea that the Father unleashed His wrath on Christ on the cross to satisfy His need for blood for forgiveness. God needed someone his equal in rank to satisfy the breaking of the law in order for justice to be fulfilled. The Father pours out His wrath on Christ in order to satisfy the offenses against His Law since Adam. It is this that I find preposterous, not the idea that Christ does atone for us. I have to ask: why would a good, loving God have to take out His wrath on His creation? https://liveorthodoxy.com/en/2020/0...s-a-poor-substitution-for-biblical-atonement/

What About Isaiah 53?​


Isaiah 53 is a paramount prophecy to defenders of penal substitutionary theory, yet it is often taken out of context. Bold claim, I know, but hear me out. No where in Isaiah does it say that the Father is punishing Christ. Actually, verse 4 says that despite the fact he bears our griefs and sorrows “yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.” Let’s reword that - humanity’s perception is that He is afflicted by God, not that God has smitten Him. Another key passage is verse 5 which tells us “by His stripes we are healed,” not “by His stripes the Father is appeased.” Let’s look at a literal translation from the Septuagint:

“The one our sins bore and on account of us he was grieved. And we considered him to be a misery, and for calamity by God, and for ill-treatment. But he was wounded because of our sins and was made infirm on account of our lawless deeds.” One should read Isaiah as a prophecy of Christ’s healing work, viewing Christ’s work as more encompassing than the narrow focus PSA allocates it to.


So What’s the Alternative?​


The Greek word translated to “atonement” in the Bible is “hilasterion“ (ιλαστηριον). In Romans 3:23-25 we read “…for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation (ιλαστηριον) by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness because, in his divine forbearance, he had passed over former sins.”

The word here is a Greek word, so a literal translation can be tricky. One translation is the word propitiation, which implies an act of appeasing or making God happy to either gain favor or avoid retribution.

As Eric Hyde argues, “If one chooses to interpret hilasterion as propitiation (literally: “to make favorable,” with the implication of placating or appeasing the deity), then the entire Western notion of substitutionary atonement fits well.” But, if one uses the word expiation, which implies a cleansing and removal of sin, this fits less into the penal substitutionary atonement model. This turns the death and resurrection of Christ around - no longer is Christ trying to appease an angry God the Father who has wrath that must be satisfied, instead Christ is lovingly redeeming and restoring humanity.

Let’s also consider that hilasterion is used in the Septuagint to mean the “mercy seat” or “thing that atones.” It also appears again in Hebrews 9:5 as the mercy seat. Given that context to hilasterion, it makes more sense to that Christ’s self-sacrifice was an act for the removal of our sins instead of an act to appease or pacify an angry Father, so He can forgive.

We know that death entered the world through sin and is something that every living thing on earth is subject to. In Christ’s Incarnation, He reunited God and man in a way that only the Eternal Logos, being fully God and taking on humanity. Through His death, Christ defeated our enemy, death, and restored the human race (2 Timothy 1:10 and 1 Corinthians 15:55-57). We share in Christ’s death and resurrection (Romans 6:8-14; 7:6) and, through Christ’s atonement we’ve been made clean and freed from sin (Ephesians 1:7; John 1:7), reuniting us to God and making us partakers of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4).

Because of sins, we were held captive; the righteous dead were filing into hades. Christ came to set them free. Jesus had to go into the realm of death - that meant becoming a human, entering the world through a woman, living an earthly life, and then allowing himself to be killed. We see him on the cross, not like he’s writhing in agony, but looking more like a hero. He maintains a heroic status in Orthodoxy; we look upon him as our Redeemer, Savior, Deliverer, who, with His boldness, and his power, and his compassion, suffered, and died, and went into hades in order to set us free. The image of the resurrection looks different than European art. In our iconography, Christ is standing on the broken gates of hell, lifting Adam and Eve out of hades.

Hebrews 2:14-15 tells us “that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the Devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage.

Christ’s work is redemptive. Christ’s sacrifice was restorative. Christ brings God to man, as only one who is God and man can, bridging the gap, conquering death, and restoring us to life. This is the good news in the Scriptures. This is what has been taught by the Church since Pentecost.

Division of the Trinity​


This becomes problematic in the light of the Trinity when we look at Christ on the cross. The Father pours out his wrath on the Son. The Father has wrath, and for his need for justice, so He must punish. The Son, on the cross, asks for forgiveness, making a conflict in the divine will - punishment versus forgiveness. Taking it to the furthest logical conclusion puts the Son and the Father at odds, creating a divide within the indivisible Trinity. It also calls to question Christ’s place in the Godhead. Shouldn’t Christ’s holiness also be offended? Why would the Father need appeasement and not Christ or the Holy Spirit?

And if God the Father is truly punishing Christ, that is also sowing very real division within the Trinity. If the Father inflicts torture on the Son, how can the perfect love and unity of the Trinity survive?

hope this helps !!!
 
Wrath for every sinner that will not turn from his sin. Go do a word search for wrath and read where it appears and to whom it is applied and to whom it is not applied. That is what I did when I attempted to PROVE PSA was true and the Bible taught that God placed our wrath upon Jesus … and what I found in scripture was something completely unexpected. My teachers had misled me.

Read and decide for yourself what GOD says is true.

Here are TWO “witnesses”:

  • [Romans 9:18-24 NKJV] 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
  • [Ezekiel 18:19-23 NKJV] 19 "Yet you say, 'Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?' Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. 20 "The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. 21 "But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 "None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 "Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?" says the Lord GOD, "[and] not that he should turn from his ways and live?
Romans testifies that there are both “vessels of wrath” and “vessels of mercy” and The Potter (God) created both for their purpose … God does not need to punish another “vessel” to transform a vessel from one category to the other … the Potter has the right to create both: each for its purpose.

Ezekiel testifies that the sins of those who turn from evil “shall not be remembered”. God, and God alone, has the right to remember or to not remember any and all acts done. There is no talk of transfer of guilt … the whole topic in this chapter is about how the guilt is NOT TRANSFERRED to the innocent. That is NOT how God does things, God is reprimanding the people because that is exactly how MEN think about Justice. God simply “remembers no more”.

There are more verses with more testimonies about God and wrath if you choose to look them up and read them for yourself. I have provided TWO WITNESSES to establish the fact. It is for you to accept or reject the testimony of God at this time. It is for God to give you eyes to see either now or later.

My job is just to speak truth when asked. I have done my job.
You and @civic have more work(study) to do.

Ephesians 2:1-3
And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the [a]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
 
You and @civic have more work(study) to do.

Ephesians 2:1-3
And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the [a]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
No wrath for the believer only the unbelievers who reject Christ. No problem in my pov.
 
You and @civic have more work(study) to do.

Ephesians 2:1-3
And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the [a]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
I agree that we were sinners, deserving of wrath. However even YOU will not claim that we actually RECEIVED God’s wrath at any time in the past (do you?).

Therefore, I do not see how the reality of Ephesians 2 somehow abrogates the reality of Ezekiel 18. God has stated, and I have believed Him, that “if a wicked man” [I was a wicked man, so I qualify] “turns from all his sins” [which is what Ephesians 2:1-10 describes the HOW we do such a thing, and I did it … or more accurately, God did it in me] then “none of the transgressions which he” [that is me] “has committed will be remembered”.

  • [Ezekiel 18:19-23 NKJV] 19 "Yet you say, 'Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?' Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. 20 "The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. 21 "But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 "None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 "Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?" says the Lord GOD, "and not that he should turn from his ways and live?”

If I am in error in understanding what God has so clearly explained, then it is your responsibility to explain my error to me from the Word of God and exegesis of that word. Just saying “go study more” leaves a fellow Christian in error. I have searched for the passage to prove that the Father poured the wrath that God intended for me onto Jesus Christ. I was taught that from the pulpit by godly men. I did not abandon that teaching lightly. However, I cannot find anything in SCRIPTURE that states or even suggests that any such transaction took place except a single verse in a prophesy that actually states that the PEOPLE considered Him stricken by God … which is exactly what happened at Golgotha: the mocking crowds CONSIDERED Jesus to be a blasphemer being punished by God for HIS sins … but we know the people were wrong in their thinking (although the prophesy was correct in its prediction).

So why is Ezekiel 18‘s “not remembered” untrue and the ”invisible passage” about God the Father pouring the wrath that we would have received on God the Son true?

I do not deny that Christ is the atonement, I just cannot find any verse on the Wrath of the God directed at anyone except unrepentant sinners.
 
PSA violates the Tri-Unity of God and love.
Only if the tri-unity demands a cohesion and unity of substance that allows for no separation. I know that such a union is orthodox Christianity, but is it an accurate descriptive of the Godhead? Do we need such a definition seeing it contradicts Romans 6:23?
 
No wrath for the believer only the unbelievers who reject Christ. No problem in my pov.
Good Morning,

@civic says: " no wrath for the believer"

CORRECT

We were translated = we became 'exchange students'
God's wrath PASSED-OVER us because of the Righteous Blood of Christ

"He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in whom we have redemption through His Blood, the forgiveness of sins." - Colossians 1:13
 
I agree that we were sinners, deserving of wrath. However even YOU will not claim that we actually RECEIVED God’s wrath at any time in the past (do you?).

Therefore, I do not see how the reality of Ephesians 2 somehow abrogates the reality of Ezekiel 18. God has stated, and I have believed Him, that “if a wicked man” [I was a wicked man, so I qualify] “turns from all his sins” [which is what Ephesians 2:1-10 describes the HOW we do such a thing, and I did it … or more accurately, God did it in me] then “none of the transgressions which he” [that is me] “has committed will be remembered”.

  • [Ezekiel 18:19-23 NKJV] 19 "Yet you say, 'Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?' Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. 20 "The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. 21 "But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 "None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. 23 "Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?" says the Lord GOD, "and not that he should turn from his ways and live?”

If I am in error in understanding what God has so clearly explained, then it is your responsibility to explain my error to me from the Word of God and exegesis of that word. Just saying “go study more” leaves a fellow Christian in error. I have searched for the passage to prove that the Father poured the wrath that God intended for me onto Jesus Christ. I was taught that from the pulpit by godly men. I did not abandon that teaching lightly. However, I cannot find anything in SCRIPTURE that states or even suggests that any such transaction took place except a single verse in a prophesy that actually states that the PEOPLE considered Him stricken by God … which is exactly what happened at Golgotha: the mocking crowds CONSIDERED Jesus to be a blasphemer being punished by God for HIS sins … but we know the people were wrong in their thinking (although the prophesy was correct in its prediction).

So why is Ezekiel 18‘s “not remembered” untrue and the ”invisible passage” about God the Father pouring the wrath that we would have received on God the Son true?

I do not deny that Christ is the atonement, I just cannot find any verse on the Wrath of the God directed at anyone except unrepentant sinners.
Good Morning,

Ephesians ch2 does not arbrogate Ezekiel ch18 = it magnifies it

i SEE no contradiction here
 
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