God's attribute of Justice demands PSA

It is accepted that in this scripture passage, the "angel(messenger) of the Lord is Jesus.
ERROR, don't assume again. the Lord Jesus is God. as a pastor once said, "don't make it up..... LOOK IT UP. supportive scripture. Hebrews 2:9 "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man."

deductive reasoning: if the Lord Jesus made himself "LOWER" than the ANGELS. this only conclude he was A. Higher than the angels, and B. he's Not an angel. and remember, there are only three entities. 1. God. 2. angels and 3. humans. so if he made himself lower than the angels then he was HIGHER that the angels...... understand.

101G.
 
ERROR, don't assume again. the Lord Jesus is God. as a pastor once said, "don't make it up..... LOOK IT UP. supportive scripture. Hebrews 2:9 "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man."

deductive reasoning: if the Lord Jesus made himself "LOWER" than the ANGELS. this only conclude he was A. Higher than the angels, and B. he's Not an angel. and remember, there are only three entities. 1. God. 2. angels and 3. humans. so if he made himself lower than the angels then he was HIGHER that the angels...... understand.

101G.
The man Jesus was made a little lower then the angels = when HE left Heaven to become 'flesh/man' = "God with us" = Immanuel
 
so how is he a angel when he is God, who created the angels.

thank you.

101G.
the WORD was never an angel = angel also means messenger
so how is he a angel when he is God, who created the angels.

thank you.

101G.
God was maifested in the flesh = 1 Timothy 3:16

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:

God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.

Why does it say: God was seen by angels???
 
The man Jesus was made a little lower then the angels = when HE left Heaven to become 'flesh/man' = "God with us" = Immanuel
now one other thing, if God is with us .... how? answer, he is with us by being in what we're in..... a body, with blood.

also, which I asked before and never got an answer. "how much of God, the Spirit, was G2758 κενόω kenoo in that body?" for God is a Spirit, per John 4:24a. was it 1/3 for the son, or what?.

101G.
 
Why does it say: God was seen by angels???
because he was SHARED EQUALLY IN FLESH and BLOOD..... in a BODY. Matthew 1:23 "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."

so was God WITH US at the virgin birth, or at the Baptism?

101G.
 
because he was SHARED EQUALLY IN FLESH and BLOOD..... in a BODY. Matthew 1:23 "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."

so was God WITH US at the virgin birth, or at the Baptism?

101G.

In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God and the Word was God = and the Word became flesh = conception to birth
 
In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God and the Word was God = and the Word became flesh = conception to birth
GINOLJC, to ALL
ERROR, he took on flesh, and was not a PARTAKER in it, so that conception to birth is not true of God, but of Christ. supportive scripture, Hebrews 2:14 "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;"

please understand the difference between "Took part" and "Partake" they are not the same. and as for conception to birth, please read again, A. Matthew 1:20 "But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost." to understand this conception clearly, and to know the difference between "Partake" and "Took part", NOW READ Luke 1:35 "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."

please look up this word "overshadow " and you will have your answer to both understanding.

PICJAG, 101G.
 
Righteousness and justice are the foundation of Your throne. (Ps. 89:14 NKJ)

Does God subvert judgment? Or does the Almighty pervert justice? (Job 8:3 NKJ)


Now if God designates one consequence of sin for one sinner, and a completely different consequence of the exact same sin for a different sinner, he has created an inequity of justice that is often condemned in Scripture:


The Consequence of Sin is death. God doesn't designate a different consequence for one man, than HE does for another. As the Jesus of the Bible teaches, Luke 13: 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

We all have the same choice, as it is written;

Duet. 30: 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: 20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
 
Righteousness and justice are the foundation of Your throne. (Ps. 89:14 NKJ)

Does God subvert judgment? Or does the Almighty pervert justice? (Job 8:3 NKJ)


Now if God designates one consequence of sin for one sinner, and a completely different consequence of the exact same sin for a different sinner, he has created an inequity of justice that is often condemned in Scripture:

Diverse weights and diverse measures, They are both alike, an abomination to the LORD. (Prov. 20:10 NKJ)

13 "You shall not have in your bag differing weights, a heavy and a light.
14 "You shall not have in your house differing measures, a large and a small.
15 "You shall have a perfect and just weight, a perfect and just measure, that your days may be lengthened in the land which the LORD your God is giving you.
16 "For all who do such things, all who behave unrighteously, are an abomination to the LORD your God. (Deut. 25:13-16 NKJ)

Now God is not a hypocrite: if he cares about unequal weights in such small matters as day to day transactions, how much more unequal punishments for far more serious sins against a holy God?

A heavy weight for sinners but a light weight for Christ?
A large weight for sinners but a small weight for Christ?
A second death for sinners but only a first death for Christ?
Wrath for every sinner but absolutely no wrath for Christ?

Denying PSA violates God's fundamental attribute of Justice.

There is a reason even humans in their sense of legality have a saying that "justice is blind" and show equal weights:

View attachment 227
Be merciful to me a sinner !

Where is the wrath, justice, punishment ?

Romans 11
28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Punishment is not mentioned in Rom 3:25-26

and hilasteron has been translated mercy seat, atoning sacrifice, expiation

NIV84 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished

LEB whom God made publicly available as the mercy seat through faith in his blood, for a demonstration of his righteousness, because of the passing over of previously committed sins

NRSV whom God put forward as a sacrifice of atonement by his blood, effective through faith. He did this to show his righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over the sins previously committed;

RSV whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins;

NET God publicly displayed him at his death as the mercy seat accessible through faith. This was to demonstrate his righteousness, because God in his forbearance had passed over the sins previously committed.

CSB God presented him as the mercy seat by his blood, through faith, to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his restraint God passed over the sins previously committed.72% difference

NAB whom God set forth as an expiation, through faith, by his blood, to prove his righteousness because of the forgiveness of sins previously committed,

YLT whom God did set forth a mercy seat, through the faith in his blood, for the shewing forth of His righteousness, because of the passing over of the bygone sins in the forbearance of God—51% difference

NJB God appointed him as a sacrifice for reconciliation, through faith, by the shedding of his blood, and so showed his justness; first for the past, when sins went unpunished because he held his hand;

ISV whom God offered as a place where atonement by Christ’s blood could occur through faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because he had waited patiently to deal with sins committed in the past

EHV whom God publicly displayed as the atonement seat through faith in his blood. God did this to demonstrate his justice, since, in his divine restraint, he had left the sins that were committed earlier unpunished.

conclusion: “Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy” (Matthew 5:7). Romans 11:30 notes, “You who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy.” Paul shared that his ministry was given to him by God’s mercy (2 Corinthians 4:1). He also saw his salvation as an act of God’s mercy: “I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief” (1 Timothy 1:13). Our salvation is also called an act of God’s mercy: “He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy” (Titus 3:5). As Peter expressed it, “In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3).

hope this helps !!!
 
Paul pleads Gods mercy not His justice as the CHIEF of all sinners ! @dizerner

Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. 14 The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.

15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. 16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life.

2 Peter 3:9 and 2 Tim 2:20-21.In Ephesians 2:3-5 we see that we “were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy […] made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)” – in other words, we were vessels of wrath but became vessels of mercy

Since God is immutable and self sufficient, God has no needs.

God doesn’t need to be appeased, satisfied or reconciled to us. We are the recipients of His grace, mercy , love and provision made possible via the atonement of Christ which expiates not propitiates(appeases an angry god ).

The atonement boils down to a proper understanding of Gods nature and character. PSA is a direct assault on His character.

hope this helps !!!
 
Righteousness and justice are the foundation of Your throne. (Ps. 89:14 NKJ)

Does God subvert judgment? Or does the Almighty pervert justice? (Job 8:3 NKJ)


Now if God designates one consequence of sin for one sinner, and a completely different consequence of the exact same sin for a different sinner, he has created an inequity of justice that is often condemned in Scripture:

Diverse weights and diverse measures, They are both alike, an abomination to the LORD. (Prov. 20:10 NKJ)

13 "You shall not have in your bag differing weights, a heavy and a light.
14 "You shall not have in your house differing measures, a large and a small.
15 "You shall have a perfect and just weight, a perfect and just measure, that your days may be lengthened in the land which the LORD your God is giving you.
16 "For all who do such things, all who behave unrighteously, are an abomination to the LORD your God. (Deut. 25:13-16 NKJ)

Now God is not a hypocrite: if he cares about unequal weights in such small matters as day to day transactions, how much more unequal punishments for far more serious sins against a holy God?

A heavy weight for sinners but a light weight for Christ?
A large weight for sinners but a small weight for Christ?
A second death for sinners but only a first death for Christ?
Wrath for every sinner but absolutely no wrath for Christ?

Denying PSA violates God's fundamental attribute of Justice.

There is a reason even humans in their sense of legality have a saying that "justice is blind" and show equal weights:

View attachment 227
God doesn’t act contrary to His nature. There is no justice with God apart from His other attributes. This is exactly what happens with an unbalanced theology.

Love and Sovereignty

What is knowable about God is based on what he has revealed about Himself in scripture. Any proposition or doctrine of Him being otherwise without becoming contrary to who He has revealed Himself to be is nothing but the evilest assault on the character and nature of God. It amounts to proposing that God can be contrary to Himself without changing. God is immutable and does not change.

God is sovereign and also love. Both sovereignty and love as they intersect in God have been revealed plainly to us by God. He has done this both through his word and his works. And he has sworn never to change.

God's sovereignty is never exercised in violation of his love. His love is very everlasting, for God is love. It has not the slightest shadow of variation, and it, not his sovereignty, is the basis upon which his moral standards rest. Any promotion of any doctrine that represents God as acting in a way that violates his love appealing to the fact that He is sovereign and so can do it is pure evil.

With God, might is not right. The fact that he can do something is not a justification for him doing it. The fact that God can damn everyone without a reason is not an argument for justifying teaching that he does as in the Calvinist doctrine of double predestination. All that he can do is restricted by the rule he values most - love.

If it will violate love, God will not and cannot do it for that would be contrary to His nature and character as a loving God. And if it will violate love then it is not right. God cannot make it right by doing it just because he is sovereign. If he does it just because he is sovereign then he would not be God again but something else.

God can do any and everything is what sovereignty stands for. God will only do what is loving is what righteousness stands for.

Righteousness is the foundation of his throne. In other words, righteousness is the constraint of his sovereign rule. Love is how God rules His creation. Sovereignty, Righteousness, Justice, Mercy and all the other attributes of God fall under the umbrella of His love.

What if God’s essence, his spirit, is more like light, an orb radiating all his characteristics from a core of some type of energy, say love?

Not only does this configuration fit scripture declaring that God is spirit (John 4:24), that he is light (1 John 1:5), and that he is love (1 John 4:8), but it also fits the living out of God’s image in the body of Jesus Christ. In him, we do not witness a love regulated by sovereignty, but a sovereignty regulated by love.

Thinking and living in these terms does not in any way shelve the idea of God’s sovereignty, but it does place it within the heart of God’s love. From love, he rules.

Therefore, instead of asking how an all-sovereign God exercises his love, we might ask how an all-loving God exercises his sovereignty. This, I think, is the better conversation. l.meyers

1 John 4:7-5:4

God is love
. The same construction is found in 1 John 1:5 ("God is light") and in 1 John 4:24 ("God is spirit"). The noun love, referring to a process, is the predicate of the sentence; it says something about God's quality, character, and activity. The translator must take care not to give a rendering that equates God and love. This would imply that the clause order is reversible and that God is love and "love is God" are both true propositions-which is certainly not what John meant to say.

After "love is of God" in v. 7a the present clause functions as a climax: God is not only the origin of love, but love itself. At first sight this construction might suggest that John intends to identify God with an abstract principle. That this is not the case becomes clear, however, when one looks at the context, where God is represented as the personal agent of the act of loving.

The proposition "God loves us" might stand alongside such statements as, "God creates," "God rules," "God judges." Accordingly, "God is love" does not mean to say that love is one of God's activities, but that all His activity is loving activity. Whether he creates, or rules, or judges, he does so in love. All that he does is the expression of his nature which is-to love. ‡

The Greek construction
cannot be followed in several languages because a corresponding verbal noun simply does not exist in the language, or, if existing, cannot be thus construed, or, if thus construed, would not express the same meaning. Therefore, translators have tried to express the force of this construction otherwise, for example, 'God's character is to habitually-love,' 'all God's deeds are loving deeds,' 'God is one who continually and really loves,' 'God has-as-quality love.' (from the UBS New Testament Handbook Series. Copyright © 1961-1997, by United Bible Societies.)

God is love, God is light or God is spirit are what is known as an anarthrous predicate. John does not say that light is God, but only that God is light. The two phrases are not interchangeable. The word God in the Greek has the article, the word light does not so it means that the two words are not interchangeable. The absence of the article emphasizes ones character or nature. It literally would read: God as to His nature is light.The same is true with the phrase God is love. Love is not God. In other words He is a loving God. It is Gods nature or character to be loving.

1 John 4:8
God is love ho ‎‎Theos ‎‎agapee ‎‎estin‎. Anarthrous predicate, not ‎hee ‎‎agapee‎. John does not say that love is God, but only that God is love. The two terms are not interchangeable. God is also light (1 John 1:5) and spirit (John 4:24). (from Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament)

conclusion: God is love and all His attributes ( including justice, righteousness, sovereignty )flow from His nature as a loving God. God cannot act contrary to His nature. A God that acts contrary to His nature is by definition is unloving, unjust and not righteous.

hope this helps !!!
 
GINOLJC, to ALL
ERROR, he took on flesh, and was not a PARTAKER in it, so that conception to birth is not true of God, but of Christ. supportive scripture, Hebrews 2:14 "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;"

please understand the difference between "Took part" and "Partake" they are not the same. and as for conception to birth, please read again, A. Matthew 1:20 "But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost." to understand this conception clearly, and to know the difference between "Partake" and "Took part", NOW READ Luke 1:35 "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."

please look up this word "overshadow " and you will have your answer to both understanding.

PICJAG, 101G.
Good Morning,

The WORD that was God always Existed = the WORD is God = Eternal Elohim

Correct: The WORD took on flesh = the WORD was not created = "the WORD became flesh and dwelt among us"
 
Righteousness and justice are the foundation of Your throne. (Ps. 89:14 NKJ)

Does God subvert judgment? Or does the Almighty pervert justice? (Job 8:3 NKJ)


Now if God designates one consequence of sin for one sinner, and a completely different consequence of the exact same sin for a different sinner, he has created an inequity of justice that is often condemned in Scripture:

Diverse weights and diverse measures, They are both alike, an abomination to the LORD. (Prov. 20:10 NKJ)

13 "You shall not have in your bag differing weights, a heavy and a light.
14 "You shall not have in your house differing measures, a large and a small.
15 "You shall have a perfect and just weight, a perfect and just measure, that your days may be lengthened in the land which the LORD your God is giving you.
16 "For all who do such things, all who behave unrighteously, are an abomination to the LORD your God. (Deut. 25:13-16 NKJ)

Now God is not a hypocrite: if he cares about unequal weights in such small matters as day to day transactions, how much more unequal punishments for far more serious sins against a holy God?

A heavy weight for sinners but a light weight for Christ?
A large weight for sinners but a small weight for Christ?
A second death for sinners but only a first death for Christ?
Wrath for every sinner but absolutely no wrath for Christ?

Denying PSA violates God's fundamental attribute of Justice.

There is a reason even humans in their sense of legality have a saying that "justice is blind" and show equal weights:

View attachment 227
If the penalty is fulfilled, what is there to forgive?

Doug
 
If the penalty is fulfilled, what is there to forgive?

Doug

Okay, think this through with me.

Payments can have two stages or two parts.

If I leave money with someone and I stipulate "If they do X, then release these funds," that does not mean I did not actually pay for it.

I provisionally paid for it, the price was paid with a condition that has to be met.

I was listening to Jesse Morrell and at the start of his street preaching ministry he was evangelizing and a man was walking away and heard him say "Jesus died for your sins!" Then man turned and say, "Oh, he did? Then I'm good now," and he walked off.

But this false dilemma fallacy lodged a wrong conclusion in Morrell, and his ministry began to take a works oriented and self-righteous tone, where sinners need to be holy enough to be worthy to be saved, instead of resting in the sufficient grace of the Cross.

We reason, if Jesus paid it all, why is there anything more necessary then? The reason something more is necessary is not what our pride hopes—it's not so we can contribute a little more merit in the genuineness of our repentance and good works.

The price was fully paid only in Christ, and one must be joined to Christ to experience the payment. This does not logically mean double jeopardy, because the double jeopardy assumes a legal system that never allows for conditional payments.

So there is still something left to forgive. The atonement has application. It is not automatic, it has never been automatic, and it is a two stage atonement, the completion in Christ and the appropriation of the believer.

By accessing the already paid payment, the payment is transferred; not made again, not paid again, and not merited simply because there is a condition of some kind one has to meet.

This seems too "easy" and too "free" to our carnal nature, we don't want salvation to be so "easy," we want to feel like we really contributed some real work and holiness and penance and just a little bit of something to make what Jesus did even better.

It is our perennial temptation.
 
Be merciful to me a sinner !

Where is the wrath, justice, punishment ?

On Jesus on the Cross.

God doesn’t need to be appeased, satisfied or reconciled to us.

God doesn't need it, he wants it, and he's worth it.

God doesn’t act contrary to His nature. There is no justice with God apart from His other attributes. This is exactly what happens with an unbalanced theology.

Yes!

And how can God have mercy and still be just?

By marrying justice and mercy together on the Cross, where no single sin was left unpunished.
 
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