Freed from : Calvinism-TULIP-5 points Hyper-Calvinism

[atpollard]

Post some verses regarding total inability.

John 6:44 “NO ONE CAN COME TO ME” [unless God does something].

I really don’t know how much clearer Jesus could have been.

 

[TibiasDad]

I never said you did. I accused you of not reading the whole paragraph (which is really just one run-on sentence.)


1. I have no “my Calvinism” as I am a Baptist (Baptists were NEVER part of the Reformation, we have a different origin than the Luther/Calvin split with Rome).
2. The 1689 Baptist Confession was unequivocally clear that God “God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass” and “yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established” … all parts of that sentence are true and Post #360 provided the Scripture supporting each and every part of the statement.

As a Baptist (thus a believer that Scripture is the ONLY true authority), it is enough for me that God says it is so without needing to be able to explain all details of the mind of God with human logic.

FYI: The Baptist Confession is not Scripture…
By the way, to rightly divide the word of God necessitates that we be able to explain what is in the Bible.

What you might call a paradox, I call a contradiction. To decree from all eternity that X must necessarily happen in a particular way, no matter what X is, is to be the effectual cause of that necessity, for it could never be otherwise from that point because of the decree. So all the minutia that is involved is X occurring is equally fixed and irreversible.

Whoever decrees it is responsible for its reality occurring.

Doug

 

[Presby02]

Of course that's what I mean to say.

If a person must hear the gospel to be saved...
it would mean no one in the OT was saved.

And you know that many in OT times were saved.
By the very same way that you and I are saved....
by faith.

Hebrews 11:1-8
1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

2 For by it the men of old gained approval.

3 By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.

4 By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks.

5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God.

6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

7 By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going.

Old Testament saints did hear the gospel. NO ONE CLAIMED THE DID NOT. The gospel was preached to Abraham. Your missing the point, deliberately i suspect. I will repeat myself. There are millions upon millions through history that have never heard the gospel. No one was preaching the gospel in North America before the Europeans arrived. Unless you have evidence to the contrary. Are you a Motmon?

 

[Presby02]

all those poor OT believers who are lost. because they did not hear the gospel.

Never said that.

 

[Presby02]

So you mean to tell me that before the gospel EVERYONE was lost?
(since, apparently, according to you, only the gospel saves).

 

[Presby02]

That would include both good and bad…just sayin,


Doug

All does mean all though right?

 

[Presby02]

FYI: The Baptist Confession is not Scripture…
By the way, to rightly divide the word of God necessitates that we be able to explain what is in the Bible.

What you might call a paradox, I call a contradiction. To decree from all eternity that X must necessarily happen in a particular way, no matter what X is, is to be the effectual cause of that necessity, for it could never be otherwise from that point because of the decree. So all the minutia that is involved is X occurring is equally fixed and irreversible.

Whoever decrees it is responsible for its reality occurring.

Doug

So the Father is responsible for His Sons death? Acts 4:27,28

 

[atpollard]

Whoever decrees it is responsible for its reality occurring.

Did God create EVIL?

If "Yes", then are the verses that claim otherwise wrong?
If "No", then are the verses that claim "nothing exists that God (the Word) did not create" wrong?
Are two Biblical Statements (God created EVERYTHING) and (God did not create EVIL) both true and yet paradoxical?

 

[atpollard]

FYI: The Baptist Confession is not Scripture…

And every Baptist says "AMEN!"

 

[atpollard]

What you might call a paradox, I call a contradiction. To decree from all eternity that X must necessarily happen in a particular way, no matter what X is, is to be the effectual cause of that necessity, for it could never be otherwise from that point because of the decree. So all the minutia that is involved is X occurring is equally fixed and irreversible.

Was it God's WILL that Jesus redeem men from the curse of Adam from before the foundation of the world?

Which Scriptural Truth will you deny?

• Jesus was the chosen redeemer before the foundation of the world.
• Adam had free will (Do you think God MADE Adam sin).
• Redemption is God's fixed and irrevocable plan.

Is it a paradox or a contradiction that Adam had FREE WILL and MUST FALL since Christ must redeem men from before God created Adam?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Never said that.

it was insinuated in what you said.

there is no other way to interpret what you said

 

[TibiasDad]

Is it a paradox or a contradiction that Adam had FREE WILL and MUST FALL since Christ must redeem men from before God created Adam?

The issue here is a matter of wording: Christ was crucified from the foundation of the world, not because Adam “must” sin but because God foresaw that he “would” freely sin. There is a huge difference between the two wordings.


Doug

 

[TibiasDad]

Did God create EVIL?

If "Yes", then are the verses that claim otherwise wrong?
If "No", then are the verses that claim "nothing exists that God (the Word) did not create" wrong?
Are two Biblical Statements (God created EVERYTHING) and (God did not create EVIL) both true and yet paradoxical?

God allowed the potential for evil when he created, which indicates free will. His foreknowledge sees the results and he plans in accordance.

Doug

 

[GodsGrace]

The dates prove that either Calvin was a time traveler, or that Calvin did not create the 5 points of the Doctrines of Grace and definitely did not create TULIP.

TULIP is an acronym.
What difference does it make who invented it?
It's what it stands for that is important.

Which letter of TULIP do you believe is incorrect in its teaching?

You may not care that people are making false statements (you certainly have no problem making them), but I care and offer TRUTH to combat ERROR when I am able.

Which false statement have I made?
Is it false because YOU do not agree with it?
What have I stated about reformed/Calvinist teachings that is incorrect?

I note that there is a heavy demand for “scripture” in your non sequitur posts, but a conspicuous lack of any scripture provided by you to support your “taint so”. I also noted a distinct failure on your part to respond to those Scriptures that were provided.

atpollard.....
putting two or three verses in parenthesis is NOT POSTING SCRIPTURE.

If you want to discuss a scripture, please post it.
You know how....
You DO post John 6:44 enough times.
Follow THAT example.

 

[atpollard]

The issue here is a matter of wording: Christ was crucified from the foundation of the world, not because Adam “must” sin but because God foresaw that he “would” freely sin. There is a huge difference between the two wordings.

Please define FREE WILL and in what sense did ADAM have FREE WILL if the outcome was already known?

How could ADAM have chosen to NOT SIN if it was already known by God that ADAM would choose to sin?

You are a HARD DETERMINIST who has simply removed GOD as the First Cause and made MAN the First Cause.
[Philosophically, the "first cause" or "uncaused cause" is one of the attributes that defines God and proves that God exists, so you are making MAN into a God and creating a system of dualism ... two uncaused causes.]

 

[atpollard]

If you want to discuss a scripture, please post it.
You know how....
You DO post John 6:44 enough times.
Follow THAT example.

OK ...

John 6:44 “NO ONE CAN COME TO ME” [unless God does something].

I really don’t know how much clearer Jesus could have been.

... still waiting for a response.

Or ...

Or John 3:19-20 … or 2 Corinthians 4:3-4?

Which of THESE would you like to discuss?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Please define FREE WILL and in what sense did ADAM have FREE WILL if the outcome was already known?

How could ADAM have chosen to NOT SIN if it was already known by God that ADAM would choose to sin?

You are a HARD DETERMINIST who has simply removed GOD as the First Cause and made MAN the First Cause.
[Philosophically, the "first cause" or "uncaused cause" is one of the attributes that defines God and proves that God exists, so you are making MAN into a God and creating a system of dualism ... two uncaused causes.]

really?

God knows what man will chose of his free will. and that means there is no free will.

come on!!!

 

[GodsGrace]

I did … you ignored it.

How about John 6:44?
Or John 3:19-20 … or 2 Corinthians 4:3-4?
Or are you just being pedantic and looking for an exact phrasing that is not found in scripture as a dishonest ‘gotcha’?

Pedantic?
You call reformed/calvinist faith teachings pedantic?

So let's go with your favorite verse....I'll POST IT:

John 6:44 Jesus said:
44 "No one can come to Me unless * the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.


This can be explained in a couple of ways....
Let's do both, which I can think of just off-hand....

1. DRAW.....
The word DRAW which is used in John 6:44 is the same word that is used in
John 12:32
32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

You could look it up in Strong's....of which I'm no fan,,,but it seems other Christians are.
In both cases they use the word no. 1607 if I remember correctly.

If we use the same meaning,,,,,,which indeed it IS the same meaning....
in Calvinist theology, the resulting understanding will necessarily be that ALL MEN will be saved because Jesus stated that He will DRAW all men to Himself.

The is universalism and we know that this is not what the bible teaches.
The word DRAW cannot mean that God pulls in, or in any other fashion compels the believer in John 6:44...
or, indeed John 12:32 would proclaim a universalist theology.


So,,, there must be a different understanding of John 6:44


2. A good understanding of John 6:44 would be that God draws all men to Himself....
not only after Jesus death and resurrection...but also before it.
God has always revealed Himsself to mankind...


Romans 1:18-20
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.


At the judement each man will have no excuse before God because each man will have had, in some way, the revelation of God's existance. He will be judged by his reply to God...yes, leading to life or no, leading to damnation.

The word DRAW can be understood to be an invitation.
God draws all men to Himself...
He invites all men.
Using the word DRAW in this way makes both verses follow the teaching of the NT and makes perfect sense.

The problem will be the matter of free will.
The fact that the reformed do not believe in the free will of man to choose God will deny the above explanation.

However, In the very same book of John,
free will of mankind is expressed in the chapter just prior:


John 5:39-40
39 "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;
40 and you are unwilling * to come to Me so that you may have life.


Jesus stated that some were UNWILLING to come to Him for salvation...to have life.
Unwilling....denotes the free will to go to Jesus or not.

So we see that DRAW is an invitation which a person could accept or deny.
Tying together well both John 6:44 and John 12:32

Scripture explains scripture.

 

[GodsGrace]

John 6:44 “NO ONE CAN COME TO ME” [unless God does something].

I really don’t know how much clearer Jesus could have been.

Replied.

I notice that you put UNLESS GOD DOES SOMETHING in parenthesis.

Now THAT we MIGHT be able to agree on....

God most certainly does something.....
He gives to each man enough grace to allow man to know about His existence.
Some call this prevenient grace...or initial grace.

But it in no way does God coerce man to accept God. (the word DRAW does not mean by force)
Man still has the free will ability to deny God.

 

[GodsGrace]

OK ...

... still waiting for a response.

Or ...


Which of THESE would you like to discuss?

Well, you didn't post them so I can't discuss what I don't see.

Anyway,,,just replied to John 6:44 and your other 2 posts.

Happy to discuss any verse you'd like to post.
Giving me the verse is not posting the verse.

I don't have the NT memorized.