Freed from : Calvinism-TULIP-5 points Hyper-Calvinism

[GodsGrace]

All are invited.

So you're saying that all mankind is invited to God's "party".

This is good to hear because this is what the NT teaches.

But, of course, just because all are invited does not mean that all will attend.
Man is free to either attend God's party or to not attend.

This is why God is a just God...
He gives to each person ---- His creature --- the opportunity to be saved.
If the person does not accept the invitation...then he will not be spending time with God for eternity.
The person gets what he deserves....

Thus God is a just God...
Giving to each person what they deserve.


Romans 2:4-6
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:



The man who fears God and does what is right is welcomed:



Acts 10:34-35
34 Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly * understand now that God is not one to show partiality,
35 but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.

 

[Presby02]

So you're saying that all mankind is invited to God's "party".

This is good to hear because this is what the NT teaches.

But, of course, just because all are invited does not mean that all will attend.
Man is free to either attend God's party or to not attend.

This is why God is a just God...
He gives to each person ---- His creature --- the opportunity to be saved.
If the person does not accept the invitation...then he will not be spending time with God for eternity.
The person gets what he deserves....

Thus God is a just God...
Giving to each person what they deserve.


Romans 2:4-6
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:



The man who fears God and does what is right is welcomed:



Acts 10:34-35
34 Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly * understand now that God is not one to show partiality,
35 but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.

Yup, no Calvinist says otherwise. Except for those who never get a invitation.

He does not give all the opportunity. There are millions who never get a invitation.

If He gives every person what they deserve we are all in big trouble.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yup, no Calvinist says otherwise. Except for those who never get a invitation.

He does not give all the opportunity. There are millions who never get a invitation.

If He gives every person what they deserve we are all in big trouble.

1. Everyone gets the invitation Presby.


Jesus said so:
Matthew 22:9
9 'Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, invite to the wedding feast.'
The Jews, who were the originally invited....did not come to the banquet.
So then ALL were invited.


Jesus had other sheep to whom He must attend:
John 10:16
16 "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.
(to the Jew first...and also to the Gentile/Greek. Romans 1:16)


2. The God you describe above is not a just God.
God can only be just and give to each man what he deserves in one of the following scenarios:

A. All men go to hell due to their sinfulness.
B. All men go to heaven because of God's mercy.
C. Those who wish to go to heaven and follow God's instructions can do so.

A just God will follow C.

God gives to all the opportunity to go to heaven...
all we have to do is

1. Believe in God.
2. Obey Him.


The following will support this and will also support that man has the free will to seek and find God:


Hebrews 10:21-22
21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God,
22 let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.


Hebrews 11:6
6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.



John 3:36
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

 

[civic]

Either God determines all things/ “whatsoever comes to pass”, or he doesn’t determine all things/ “whatsoever comes to pass”: which is it?

Doug

The WCF is hard determinism, tulip is too. The Calvinist definition of sovereignty is as well. There’s no escaping it.

 

[Presby02]

1. Everyone gets the invitation Presby.


Jesus said so:
Matthew 22:9
9 'Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, invite to the wedding feast.'
The Jews, who were the originally invited....did not come to the banquet.
So then ALL were invited.


Jesus had other sheep to whom He must attend:
John 10:16
16 "I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.
(to the Jew first...and also to the Gentile/Greek. Romans 1:16)


2. The God you describe above is not a just God.
God can only be just and give to each man what he deserves in one of the following scenarios:

A. All men go to hell due to their sinfulness.
B. All men go to heaven because of God's mercy.
C. Those who wish to go to heaven and follow God's instructions can do so.

A just God will follow C.

God gives to all the opportunity to go to heaven...
all we have to do is

1. Believe in God.
2. Obey Him.


The following will support this and will also support that man has the free will to seek and find God:


Hebrews 10:21-22
21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God,
22 let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.


Hebrews 11:6
6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.



John 3:36
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Nope. There are millions through out history who have never heard the gospel. Millions who have never heard of the God of the Bible.

 

[GodsGrace]

Nope. There are millions through out history who have never heard the gospel. Millions who have never heard of the God of the Bible.

What does that mean?

Have you ever read Romans 1:18-20?

Here it is:

Romans 1-18:20
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.


God has revealed Himself from the creation of the world.
In fact, because of this reason (God revealing Himself) man will have NO EXCUSE
at judgment time.


The reformed want God all to themselves....
Unfortunately...God will not remain in the box in which they have put Him.

 

[GodsGrace]

Nope. There are millions through out history who have never heard the gospel. Millions who have never heard of the God of the Bible.

BTW,,,,that is no reply to my post.
Can't you do better??

 

[Presby02]

BTW,,,,that is no reply to my post.
Can't you do better??

That is a reply to your post. Millions throughout history have never heard the gospel. That is just a historical fact. There is not a ounce of evidence the gospel was preached in North America before Columbus

 

[atpollard]

The WCF is hard determinism,

Yup.

tulip is too.

Nope. TULIP is "how God saves" not "who God saves". It references the refutation of the Synod of Dort to the 5 points of the Remonstrances of Arminius, and nothing more. It is a narrow discussion of a specific soteriological point.

The Calvinist definition of sovereignty is as well.

There is no definitive definition of "Calvinist". It can mean as little as a synonym for a 4-point "TULIP" to as much as a WCF Reformed Theology ... or anything else the user chooses to define it as (including a "cult of John Calvin and his "Institutes").

There’s no escaping it.

So you keep insisting in spite of repeated refutation. The LONDON CONFESSION does not require Hard Determinism, but supports the "Doctrines of Grace" (aka TULIP). The Heidelberg Catechism supports the Doctrines of Grace without claiming Hard Determinism and predates both the WCF and London Confession.

So HARD DETERMINISM is NOT synonymous with TULIP (the Doctrines of Grace) ... which you call "Calvinism" even though "TULIP" was invented as an acronym in the 1930's and the 5 doctrinal truths were created by the Synod of Dort and not John Calvin.

 

[civic]

Yup.


Nope. TULIP is "how God saves" not "who God saves". It references the refutation of the Synod of Dort to the 5 points of the Remonstrances of Arminius, and nothing more. It is a narrow discussion of a specific soteriological point.


There is no definitive definition of "Calvinist". It can mean as little as a synonym for a 4-point "TULIP" to as much as a WCF Reformed Theology ... or anything else the user chooses to define it as (including a "cult of John Calvin and his "Institutes").


So you keep insisting in spite of repeated refutation. The LONDON CONFESSION does not require Hard Determinism, but supports the "Doctrines of Grace" (aka TULIP). The Heidelberg Catechism supports the Doctrines of Grace without claiming Hard Determinism and predates both the WCF and London Confession.

So HARD DETERMINISM is NOT synonymous with TULIP (the Doctrines of Grace) ... which you call "Calvinism" even though "TULIP" was invented as an acronym in the 1930's and the 5 doctrinal truths were created by the Synod of Dort and not John Calvin.

When God "controls ", determines" everything both good and evil beforehand its hard determinism no matter how you slice it, dice it.

 

[GodsGrace]

That is a reply to your post. Millions throughout history have never heard the gospel. That is just a historical fact. There is not a ounce of evidence the gospel was preached in North America before Columbus

Who cares if they heard the gosple or not???

Did you read my post regarding Romans 1:18-20?

Are you going to reply to it or are you unable to?

Could you stop parroting what the reformed teach you,,,
and start thinking for yourself for a change?

EVERYONE HAS HEARD ABOUT GOD.
Or do you know more than Paul?

Romans 1:18-20
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.


Try to explain WHY no one will be without excuse.

That would go a long way to you being able to actually understand Christianity.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yup.


Nope. TULIP is "how God saves" not "who God saves". It references the refutation of the Synod of Dort to the 5 points of the Remonstrances of Arminius, and nothing more. It is a narrow discussion of a specific soteriological point.


There is no definitive definition of "Calvinist". It can mean as little as a synonym for a 4-point "TULIP" to as much as a WCF Reformed Theology ... or anything else the user chooses to define it as (including a "cult of John Calvin and his "Institutes").


So you keep insisting in spite of repeated refutation. The LONDON CONFESSION does not require Hard Determinism, but supports the "Doctrines of Grace" (aka TULIP). The Heidelberg Catechism supports the Doctrines of Grace without claiming Hard Determinism and predates both the WCF and London Confession.

So HARD DETERMINISM is NOT synonymous with TULIP (the Doctrines of Grace) ... which you call "Calvinism" even though "TULIP" was invented as an acronym in the 1930's and the 5 doctrinal truths were created by the Synod of Dort and not John Calvin.

TULIP is also WHO God saves.
I'm sure you know about UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION AND IRRESISTIBLE GRACE.

And Calvinism is Calvinism....

no matter how SOFT anyone tries to make it.

It still ends up making God a mean and sadistic ruler.

It's OK if you don't reply...
Others still get to see the reply to your nonsense.

THE LONDON CONFESSION
THE 1689 CONFESSION
THE DOCTRINES OF GRACE
THE HEIDELBERG CATECHISMù
TULIP

Why don't you try the bible atpollard?
It might be of help in understanding the God the rest of us serve.

 

[GodsGrace]

When God "controls ", determines" everything both good and evil beforehand its hard determinism no matter how you slice it, dice it.

AMEN brother!

 

[civic]

AMEN brother!

ditto

 

[Presby02]

Who cares if they heard the gosple or not???

Did you read my post regarding Romans 1:18-20?

Are you going to reply to it or are you unable to?

Could you stop parroting what the reformed teach you,,,
and start thinking for yourself for a change?

EVERYONE HAS HEARD ABOUT GOD.
Or do you know more than Paul?

Romans 1:18-20
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.


Try to explain WHY no one will be without excuse.

That would go a long way to you being able to actually understand Christianity.

You totally ignored my point. As i suspected you would. Not everything person who has ever lived has head the gospel. Or been invited if you prefer.

Romans 1 has nothing to do with the gospel contextually.

 

[atpollard]

When God "controls ", determines" everything both good and evil beforehand its hard determinism no matter how you slice it, dice it.

Yes, that is Hard Determinism ... but that is not TULIP.

TULIP is:

• Total depravity: Human nature is inherently sinful and unable to choose God without divine intervention.
• Unconditional election: God chooses individuals for salvation without regard to their merits or foreseen actions.
• Limited atonement: Christ's death only atoned for the sins of those God has chosen, not for all humanity.
• Irresistible grace: God's grace is so powerful that those who are elected cannot resist its influence.
• Perseverance of the saints: Those who are truly saved will persevere in their faith until the end of their lives.

NOWHERE does TULIP claim that "God 'controls, determines' everything both good and evil", therefore TULIP is not HARD DETERMINISM. You keep claiming false equivalence and your error keeps being demonstrated as your incorrect opinion.

• TULIP is silent on the subject of "ALL THINGS", it only speaks of soteriology.
• God does not cause evil, God restrains evil until God gives "them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts" [Romans 1:24] ... however, that is not part of TULIP, but part of Scripture outside of "soteriology" (the subject of TULIP).
  

 

[atpollard]

Why don't you try the bible atpollard?

“No one can come to Me [TOTAL INABILITY] unless the Father who sent Me [UNCONDITIONAL] draws him [IRRESISTIBLE]; and I will raise him up on the last day [PRESERVATION].” - John 6:44

 

[GodsGrace]

You totally ignored my point. As i suspected you would. Not everything person who has ever lived has head the gospel. Or been invited if you prefer.

Romans 1 has nothing to do with the gospel contextually.

Presby....
When you have the time....
Please read Romans 1:18-20
and IF YOU CAN
come back and post what you believe it to mean.

EVERY PERSON
IN ALL TIMES
EVERYWHERE IN THE WORLD
has known about God and has had the opportunity to either accept Him or reject Him

THIS is why NO ONE will have an excuse...
BECAUSE EVERYONE will have known about God...
even those that reject Him.

 

[GodsGrace]

“No one can come to Me [TOTAL INABILITY] unless the Father who sent Me [UNCONDITIONAL] draws him [IRRESISTIBLE]; and I will raise him up on the last day [PRESERVATION].” - John 6:44

Oh for goodness sake.....

Post some verses regarding total inability.
I have plenty that command man to seek God.

Post some verses that show UNCONDITINAL ELECTION...
election based on NOTHING....
You won't find any.

DRAWS....you must be a universalist because Jesus said He would DRAW all men to Himself.
John 12:32

And we will be raised on the last day....THAT'S IN THE FUTURE...not the past.

And you posting it ad nauseum will not make it true.

So let's take:

JOHN 3:16
FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD (GOD LOVES EVERYBODY THAT EVER LIVED)
THAT HE GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON (JESUS HAD TO DIE TO SAVE ALL THOSE PERSONS GOD LOVED)
THAT WHOSOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM (IF SOMEONE TRUST IN JESUS, THAT PERSON WILL BE SAVED)
WILL NOT PERISH BUT WILL HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE. (THEY WILL LIVE FOR ETERNITY WITH GOD).

See.
Easy.

 

[atpollard]

THE LONDON CONFESSION
THE 1689 CONFESSION

Why don't you try the bible atpollard?

Of God's Decree​

Chapter 3​

Paragraph 1​

God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; [Isa. 46:10; Eph. 1:11; Heb. 6:17; Rom. 9:15,18]

• 10 declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’
• 11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
• 17 So when God desired to show more convincingly to the heirs of the promise the unchangeable character of his purpose, he guaranteed it with an oath,
• 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
• 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein;[James 1:13; 1 John 1:5]

• 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.
• 5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established;[Acts 4:27–28; John 19:11]

• 27 for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.
• 11 Jesus answered him, “You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above. Therefore he who delivered me over to you has the greater sin.”

in which appears His wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing His decree.[Num. 23:19; Eph. 1:3–5]

• 19 God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?
• 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us2 for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Good question. Why don't people believe the Bible when it teaches what a confession claims it teaches?
You have raised ignorance of the confessions you denounce to an art form.

[PS. the verses listed with the statements in the London Confession/1689 Confession (they are the same document) are included in the Confession so the reader can look them up for themselves. I only added the bullet points with the verses printed out for easy reference.]