Freed from : Calvinism-TULIP-5 points Hyper-Calvinism

atpollard said:
... and God would have called-off CHRIST whom he had ALREADY CRUCIFIED according to the Bible?
You really don't see any problem with that?

  • [Mat 13:35 ESV] 35 This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet: "I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter what has been hidden since the foundation of the world."
  • [Mat 25:34 ESV] 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
  • [Jhn 17:24 ESV] 24 Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.
  • [Eph 1:4 ESV] 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
  • [Heb 4:3 ESV] 3 For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, "As I swore in my wrath, 'They shall not enter my rest,'" although his works were finished from the foundation of the world.
  • [1Pe 1:20 ESV] 20 He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you
  • [Rev 13:8 ESV] 8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.
  • [Rev 17:8 ESV] 8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.
Just discard EVERYTHING planned from the foundation of the world and start over because Adam chose contrary to what God knew he was going to choose ... which negates "omniscience".

Once God looked ahead and "saw" what Adam was going to decide, Adam MUST decide that or God was wrong. Therefore, Adam cannot do anything other than what Adam did. That is FATALISM and YOU placed Adam in charge of God's Plan instead of God. Adam acts and God merely reacts to what he KNOWS MUST happen.
Click to expand...
Waiting on your reply.

In the meantime...
CALVINISM IS FATALISM.....

CHRISTIANITY IS LOVE AND HOPE.

Where is HOPE in the Calvinist "gospel"??
 
atpollard said:
... and God would have called-off CHRIST whom he had ALREADY CRUCIFIED according to the Bible?
You really don't see any problem with that?
Click to expand...
lol..your trying to make things difficult.

God KNEW adam would sin, thats why they decided to send christ.

atpollard said:
  • [Mat 13:35 ESV] 35 This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet: "I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter what has been hidden since the foundation of the world."
  • [Mat 25:34 ESV] 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
  • [Jhn 17:24 ESV] 24 Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.
  • [Eph 1:4 ESV] 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
  • [Heb 4:3 ESV] 3 For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, "As I swore in my wrath, 'They shall not enter my rest,'" although his works were finished from the foundation of the world.
  • [1Pe 1:20 ESV] 20 He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you
  • [Rev 13:8 ESV] 8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.
  • [Rev 17:8 ESV] 8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.
Just discard EVERYTHING planned from the foundation of the world and start over because Adam chose contrary to what God knew he was going to choose ... which negates "omniscience".

Once God looked ahead and "saw" what Adam was going to decide, Adam MUST decide that or God was wrong. Therefore, Adam cannot do anything other than what Adam did. That is FATALISM and YOU placed Adam in charge of God's Plan instead of God. Adam acts and God merely reacts to what he KNOWS MUST happen.
Click to expand...
I discards fatalistic belief.

It Gives God a bad name, and makes him the author of evil

God is a God of love, and a God of justice.. Satan is the father of evil and lies. Not God
 
TibiasDad said:
Foreknowledge is not predestination.


Doug
Click to expand...
No one said it was.
GodsGrace said:
Galatians 3:8 states that Abraham HEARD THE GOSPEL??

8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.
9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

You THINK the above means that the gospel was preached to Abraham???
Maybe you're a Calvinist because you can't even begin to understand scripture.


Like I already stated....
I GIVE UP.
Click to expand...
What does "preached the gospel beforehand" mean?

You should give up. Your not faring so well..
 
GodsGrace said:
Don't know what's difficult to understand.
If DRAW means what the reformed state it means....
to coerce into being taken in....John 6:44 NO MAN CAN COME TO THE FATHER UNLESS HE IS DRAWN.....

THEN
John 12:32 means that all men will be saved because JESUS WILL DRAW....coerce all men to be takenn in....TO HIMSELF.

If you quote John 6:44 and put in parenthesis that it is referring to UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION...
then I stand by my statement that this would teach univeralsim.
Click to expand...
You are so quick to jump to anywhere and everywhere except the [T] of Total Inability or Total Depravity. "DRAW" is part of IRRESISTIBLE GRACE and there is no need to discuss the (I) if you are incapable of focusing on the [T] (Total Inability).

John 6:44a NO MAN CAN COME TO THE FATHER UNLESS ...

The "unless" does not matter if you will not even admit the plain statement that "No man can" means that no man can ... the essence of Total Inability.

So ... TOTAL INABILITY ... John 6:44 ... "No man can come to me" ... What do you have to say about [T]OTAL INABILITY?
Anything?
Nothing?
 
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Eternally-Grateful said:
lol..your trying to make things difficult.

God KNEW adam would sin, thats why they decided to send christ.


I discards fatalistic belief.

It Gives God a bad name, and makes him the author of evil

God is a God of love, and a God of justice.. Satan is the father of evil and lies. Not God
Click to expand...
I was attempting to point out the paradoxes created by arguing that:
  • Adam can make any choice (true Free will implies that the choice cannot be known until it is made).
  • God plans based on foreseen choices of men (so called "looking down the corridors of time").
  • God creates a plan based on what he KNOWS will happen (the choice that "will be made", and therefore "must be made").
I meant no harm.
  • God is indeed NOT the author of sin.
  • Men are free to make choices ... those choices follow their natures (the leopard cannot change its spots ... God said that).
  • Jesus died to give sinful men a NEW NATURE, so that we can follow the new desires of a new heart.

The details of whether God calls and we respond ... or we hear, believe and God transforms ... are fun to discuss, but ultimately above our pay grade. We know that there IS a call and a belief and a transformation and we all give Glory to God for what HE has done (in Christ).

So "shalom shalom" ... (perfect peace) ... to you.
 
civic said:
Yes grace precedes in Arminianism and Provisionism as well.
Click to expand...

Yes.

However, they actually believe that the Holy Spirit must personally appeal to sinners. Mind you... not just any sinner. Just them.

The words of the Gospel are Gracious....

Luk 4:22 And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Joseph's son?
 
atpollard said:
I was attempting to point out the paradoxes created by arguing that:
  • Adam can make any choice (true Free will implies that the choice cannot be known until it is made).
Click to expand...
God is omniscient. God knows everytthing that has happened could have happened or may happen..
atpollard said:
  • God plans based on foreseen choices of men (so called "looking down the corridors of time").
  • God creates a plan based on what he KNOWS will happen (the choice that "will be made", and therefore "must be made").
Click to expand...
God did not plan evill. nor did he promote or create evil.

That was done by sinful man.
atpollard said:
I meant no harm.
  • God is indeed NOT the author of sin.
  • Men are free to make choices ... those choices follow their natures (the leopard cannot change its spots ... God said that).
  • Jesus died to give sinful men a NEW NATURE, so that we can follow the new desires of a new heart.

The details of whether God calls and we respond ... or we hear, believe and God transforms ... are fun to discuss, but ultimately above our pay grade. We know that there IS a call and a belief and a transformation and we all give Glory to God for what HE has done (in Christ).

So "shalom shalom" ... (perfect peace) ... to you.
Click to expand...
 
atpollard said:
You are so quick to jump to anywhere and everywhere except the [T] of Total Inability or Total Depravity. "DRAW" is part of IRRESISTIBLE GRACE and there is no need to discuss the (I) if you are incapable of focusing on the [T] (Total Inability).

John 6:44a NO MAN CAN COME TO THE FATHER UNLESS ...

The "unless" does not matter if you will not even admit the plain statement that "No man can" means that no man can ... the essence of Total Inability.

So ... TOTAL INABILITY ... John 6:44 ... "No man can come to me" ... What do you have to say about [T]OTAL INABILITY?
Anything?
Nothing?
Click to expand...
Good. You accept that draw cannot possibly mean forcibly pulled in....
So we're done with Irresistible Grace.

Now to get to Total Depravity....as per your post above.

Scripture has a lot to say about the fact that man is ABLE to seek God...

JESUS said we are to seek the Kingdom:


Matthew 6:33 Jesus said:​

But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.


James 4:8​

Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.


James 4:8​

Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.


Hebrews 11:6​

And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Proverbs 8:17​

I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.


Jeremiah 29:13​

You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.

.

Isaiah 55:6-7​

“Seek the Lord while he may be found; call upon him while he is near; let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.


Lamentations 3:25​

The Lord is good to those who wait for him, to the soul who seeks him.


2 Chronicles 7:14​

If my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.


Jeremiah 29:12-14​

Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will hear you. You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you, declares the Lord, and I will restore your fortunes and gather you from all the nations and all the places where I have driven you, declares the Lord, and I will bring you back to the place from which I sent you into exile.


Isaiah 55:6​

“Seek the Lord while he may be found; call upon him while he is near;


Amos 5:4​

For thus says the Lord to the house of Israel: “Seek me and live;


Acts 17:27​

That they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us,

​

Zephaniah 2:3​

Seek the Lord, all you humble of the land, who do his just commands; seek righteousness; seek humility; perhaps you may be hidden on the day of the anger of the Lord.


There are many more.
God COMMANDS us to seek Him.

​

 
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atpollard said:

Of God's Decree​

Chapter 3​

Paragraph 1​

God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; [Isa. 46:10; Eph. 1:11; Heb. 6:17; Rom. 9:15,18]
  • 10 declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’
  • 11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
  • 17 So when God desired to show more convincingly to the heirs of the promise the unchangeable character of his purpose, he guaranteed it with an oath,
  • 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
  • 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein;[James 1:13; 1 John 1:5]
  • 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.
  • 5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established;[Acts 4:27–28; John 19:11]
  • 27 for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.
  • 11 Jesus answered him, “You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above. Therefore he who delivered me over to you has the greater sin.”

in which appears His wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing His decree.[Num. 23:19; Eph. 1:3–5]
  • 19 God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?
  • 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us2 for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Good question. Why don't people believe the Bible when it teaches what a confession claims it teaches?
You have raised ignorance of the confessions you denounce to an art form.

[PS. the verses listed with the statements in the London Confession/1689 Confession (they are the same document) are included in the Confession so the reader can look them up for themselves. I only added the bullet points with the verses printed out for easy reference.]
Click to expand...
Perhaps I should post some stuff from the Catechism of the Catholic Church?
It ALSO has verses in parenthesis.
Then you could look them up for YOURself.

OR

We could use the bible...
which is OUR AUTHORITY
and which is HOW Christians should be debating a topic.

We should be reading THE BIBLE...
NOT Confessions or Catechisms.
 
GodsGrace said:
Good. You accept that draw cannot possibly mean forcibly pulled in....
So we're done with Irresistible Grace.
Click to expand...
I say that I will not discuss IRRESISTIBLE GRACE until after you have responded to TOTAL INABILITY ... and you claim victory in a discussion on Irresistible Grace that you were having alone. :unsure:

GodsGrace said:
Now to get to Total Depravity....as per your post above.
Scripture has a lot to say about the fact that man is ABLE to seek God...
JESUS said we are to seek the Kingdom:

[snip verses that are NOT the verse we were discussing]

There are many more.
Click to expand...
So When Jesus stated, clearly and unequivocally, the "No one can seek me" ... Jesus lied.
That is your response to John 6:44 "No one can come to me ..."

Total Inability is false and Jesus lied when he said "no one can come" because EVERYONE can come.

Is that your final answer to John 6:44 "No one can come to me ..."?
 
atpollard said:
I say that I will not discuss IRRESISTIBLE GRACE until after you have responded to TOTAL INABILITY ... and you claim victory in a discussion on Irresistible Grace that you were having alone. :unsure:


So When Jesus stated, clearly and unequivocally, the "No one can seek me" ... Jesus lied.
That is your response to John 6:44 "No one can come to me ..."

Total Inability is false and Jesus lied when he said "no one can come" because EVERYONE can come.

Is that your final answer to John 6:44 "No one can come to me ..."?
Click to expand...
Unless God draws them

God draws everyone.. romans 1 says no one has an excuse.

many are called. few are chosen
 
GodsGrace said:
We are COMMANDED to seek God.
Click to expand...

... and we are commanded to Obey the whole Law of God:
  • [2Ki 21:8 NET] 8 I will not make Israel again leave the land I gave to their ancestors, provided that they carefully obey all I commanded them, the whole law my servant Moses ordered them to obey."
  • [2Ch 33:8 NET] 8 I will not make Israel again leave the land I gave to their ancestors, provided that they carefully obey all I commanded them, the whole law, the rules and regulations given to Moses."
  • [Gal 5:3 NET] 3 And I testify again to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.
... yet no one does:
  • [Rom 3:10-12 NET] 10 just as it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one, 11 there is no one who understands, there is no one who seeks God. 12 All have turned away, together they have become worthless; there is no one who shows kindness, not even one."
[TOTAL INABILITY]
 
atpollard said:
... and we are commanded to Obey the whole Law of God:
  • [2Ki 21:8 NET] 8 I will not make Israel again leave the land I gave to their ancestors, provided that they carefully obey all I commanded them, the whole law my servant Moses ordered them to obey."
  • [2Ch 33:8 NET] 8 I will not make Israel again leave the land I gave to their ancestors, provided that they carefully obey all I commanded them, the whole law, the rules and regulations given to Moses."
  • [Gal 5:3 NET] 3 And I testify again to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.
... yet no one does:
  • [Rom 3:10-12 NET] 10 just as it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one, 11 there is no one who understands, there is no one who seeks God. 12 All have turned away, together they have become worthless; there is no one who shows kindness, not even one."
[TOTAL INABILITY]
Click to expand...
yet we can seek God..

seeking god is not even close to being perfect. We seek God because we realise we are not perfect..

thats why the law points to Christ as a schoolmaster
 
atpollard said:
I say that I will not discuss IRRESISTIBLE GRACE until after you have responded to TOTAL INABILITY ... and you claim victory in a discussion on Irresistible Grace that you were having alone. :unsure:


So When Jesus stated, clearly and unequivocally, the "No one can seek me" ... Jesus lied.
That is your response to John 6:44 "No one can come to me ..."

Total Inability is false and Jesus lied when he said "no one can come" because EVERYONE can come.

Is that your final answer to John 6:44 "No one can come to me ..."?
Click to expand...
I posted what Jesus said about seeking God....

I also posted tens of verses of God COMMANDING us to seek Him.

So if YOU cannot reconcile what JESUS stated with John 6.44 that is YOUR problem.

Reformed/Calvinist theology causes MANY conflicts in scripture.

I see no conflict.

If you believe there's a conflict in what Jesus stated on 2 different occasions...
it would be good to try and reconcile these two statement for yourself.

JESUS NEVER said "No one can seek Me".
JESUS NEVER said "No one can come to Me".

Yes. This is the final and biblical answer.
ANYONE can SEEK GOD and find Him.
EVERYONE is welcomed to be saved.
EVERYONE is invited to be saved.

IF you can find some verses that do not SEEM to comply with my statements...
you are free to post them (POST THEM) and we could discuss.

or

You could give up...like you usually do.
 
Eternally-Grateful said:
Unless God draws them

God draws everyone.. romans 1 says no one has an excuse.

many are called. few are chosen
Click to expand...
So ... no one can come unless God draws them and God draws everyone so everyone can come.
Is THAT really the message you believe that Jesus was attempting to teach in John 6?

John 6:41-52 [NLT]
Then the people began to murmur in disagreement because he had said, "I am the bread that came down from heaven." They said, "Isn't this Jesus, the son of Joseph? We know his father and mother. How can he say, 'I came down from heaven'?" ​
​
But Jesus replied, "Stop complaining about what I said. For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up. As it is written in the Scriptures, 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. (Not that anyone has ever seen the Father; only I, who was sent from God, have seen him.) ​
​
"I tell you the truth, anyone who believes has eternal life. Yes, I am the bread of life! Your ancestors ate manna in the wilderness, but they all died. Anyone who eats the bread from heaven, however, will never die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Anyone who eats this bread will live forever; and this bread, which I will offer so the world may live, is my flesh." ​
​
Then the people began arguing with each other about what he meant. "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" they asked.​
 
atpollard said:
So ... no one can come unless God draws them and God draws everyone so everyone can come.
Is THAT really the message you believe that Jesus was attempting to teach in John 6?

John 6:41-52 [NLT]
Then the people began to murmur in disagreement because he had said, "I am the bread that came down from heaven." They said, "Isn't this Jesus, the son of Joseph? We know his father and mother. How can he say, 'I came down from heaven'?" ​
​
But Jesus replied, "Stop complaining about what I said. For no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up. As it is written in the Scriptures, 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. (Not that anyone has ever seen the Father; only I, who was sent from God, have seen him.) ​
​
"I tell you the truth, anyone who believes has eternal life. Yes, I am the bread of life! Your ancestors ate manna in the wilderness, but they all died. Anyone who eats the bread from heaven, however, will never die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Anyone who eats this bread will live forever; and this bread, which I will offer so the world may live, is my flesh." ​
​
Then the people began arguing with each other about what he meant. "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" they asked.​
Click to expand...
lets see what God says

36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Jesus came to those people. and he drew them to himself

they did not believe

THATS WHY JESUS TOLD THEM, SEARCH NOT FOR FOOD WHICH PERISHES, BUT FOOD WHICH ENDURES TO ETERNAL LIFE WHICH THE FATHER WILL GIVE YOU
 

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