Freed from : Calvinism-TULIP-5 points Hyper-Calvinism

[atpollard]

So the Father is responsible for His Sons death? Acts 4:27,28

That's a tricky question.

• Acts 4:27-28 [ESV] for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.
• Acts 2:22-23 [ESV] "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know-- this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.
• John 10:17-18 [ESV] For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father."
• John 19:10-11 [ESV] So Pilate said to him, "You will not speak to me? Do you not know that I have authority to release you and authority to crucify you?" Jesus answered him, "You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above. Therefore he who delivered me over to you has the greater sin."

 

[GodsGrace]

Please define FREE WILL and in what sense did ADAM have FREE WILL if the outcome was already known?

How could ADAM have chosen to NOT SIN if it was already known by God that ADAM would choose to sin?

You are a HARD DETERMINIST who has simply removed GOD as the First Cause and made MAN the First Cause.
[Philosophically, the "first cause" or "uncaused cause" is one of the attributes that defines God and proves that God exists, so you are making MAN into a God and creating a system of dualism ... two uncaused causes.]

How is KNOWING something make me the cause??

I KNOW my daugher is at the hairdresser right now and is getting her hair colored.
I KNOW it's going to be a dark blonde color.
Am I CAUSING her to get it colored??

God is the uncaused cause.
It just means that God was not created.
It does NOT mean that He causes everything to happen.

KNOWING is not CAUSING.

Could you explain how knowing something causes it to happen?

 

[atpollard]

really?

God knows what man will chose of his free will. and that means there is no free will.

come on!!!

Define FREE WILL (you failed to define the term).
By most definitions of the term, YES, it means exactly that: If only one choice is POSSIBLE then FREE WILL is impossible.

That is why those who advocate FOR free will argue so hard against "determinism" [only one future is possible - God's Plan].

 

[GodsGrace]

Old Testament saints did hear the gospel. NO ONE CLAIMED THE DID NOT. The gospel was preached to Abraham. Your missing the point, deliberately i suspect. I will repeat myself. There are millions upon millions through history that have never heard the gospel. No one was preaching the gospel in North America before the Europeans arrived. Unless you have evidence to the contrary. Are you a Motmon?

When did Abraham hear THE GOSPEL??

 

[GodsGrace]

What's that funny look on your face Presby?
Are you confused about something?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Define FREE WILL (you failed to define the term).

I should not have to

Free will is the ability to chose between one or more options. as apposed to not free will which means we we are forced to make only one option.

By most definitions of the term, YES, it means exactly that: If only one choice is POSSIBLE then FREE WILL is impossible.

It was possible for adam to sin the moment he was created.

That is why those who advocate FOR free will argue so hard against "determinism" [only one future is possible - God's Plan].

we argue against fatalism, because it states God is the author of evil. and he determined all the evil things that are done will take place. and the people had no choice

 

[GodsGrace]

Old Testament saints did hear the gospel. NO ONE CLAIMED THE DID NOT. The gospel was preached to Abraham. Your missing the point, deliberately i suspect. I will repeat myself. There are millions upon millions through history that have never heard the gospel. No one was preaching the gospel in North America before the Europeans arrived. Unless you have evidence to the contrary. Are you a Motmon?

Presby.....
You don't seem able to respond to my TWO posts on Romans 1:18-20

These are pivotal to understanding Christianity and soteriology.

Maybe if you understood what it states...you'd stop posting about millions that never heard the gospel.

GOD was around even BEFORE the gospel message.

 

[atpollard]

John 6:44 Jesus said:
44 "No one can come to Me unless * the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.


This can be explained in a couple of ways....
Let's do both, which I can think of just off-hand....

1. DRAW.....
The word DRAW which is used in John 6:44 is the same word that is used in
John 12:32
32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

You could look it up in Strong's....of which I'm no fan,,,but it seems other Christians are.
In both cases they use the word no. 1607 if I remember correctly.

If we use the same meaning,,,,,,which indeed it IS the same meaning....
in Calvinist theology, the resulting understanding will necessarily be that ALL MEN will be saved because Jesus stated that He will DRAW all men to Himself.

The is universalism and we know that this is not what the bible teaches.
The word DRAW cannot mean that God pulls in, or in any other fashion compels the believer in John 6:44...
or, indeed John 12:32 would proclaim a universalist theology.


So,,, there must be a different understanding of John 6:44

So argument 1 is "you can misinterpret 'all men' in John 12:32 to say something false, so John 6:44 really means the opposite of what it says" [my paraphrase].
I respectfully disagree with the premise. First, DRAW means DRAW in English and Greek, so there is little need to resort to Strongs. However, we were focusing on the first part ... "NO MAN CAN COME TO ME UNLESS" since we were discussing "Total Inability" [The Doctrine of Grace claiming that People are incapable of choosing Salvation unless God does SOMETHING first to initiate the process.]

Therefore DOES John 6:44 speak truth that "no one can come to Jesus unless God the Father does something first [let us set aside "DRAW" for a moment] or did Jesus misspeak since EVERYONE can come to Jesus without God the Father needing to do something first because of our Free Will?

Which is it?

Address Jesus CLEAR statement first, and then we can discuss "DRAW" and what that "something" might be and how universal the draw really is.

 

[atpollard]

Free will is the ability to chose between one or more options. as apposed to not free will which means we we are forced to make only one option.

How did Adam have the ABILITY to choose to not fall if GOD had "already crucified Jesus" because ADAM would fall?

You have made ADAM's choice the FIRST CAUSE, that then CAUSED GOD to make a Plan in response, that then created the HARD DETERMINISM that left Adam created at 'birth' with no choice but what was predestined.

It is the Schrödinger's Cat problem ... the CHOICE only existed as an abstract possibility until Adam made it, then the parallel realities [Adam fell / Adam did not fall] collapsed into the ONLY possible reality.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

How did Adam have the ABILITY to choose to not fall if GOD had "already crucified Jesus" because ADAM would fall?

what? are you joking?

All adam had to do was say no eve, God said we are not to eat of this fruit. I am sorry you did.. but i refuse.

You have made ADAM's choice the FIRST CAUSE, that then CAUSED GOD to make a Plan in response, that then created the HARD DETERMINISM that left Adam created at 'birth' with no choice but what was predestined.

again, typical calvinism

It is the Schrödinger's Cat problem ... the CHOICE only existed as an abstract possibility until Adam made it, then the parallel realities [Adam fell / Adam did not fall] collapsed into the ONLY possible reality.

God created adam with free will. the ability to chose.

If Adam had no ability to chose. then putting a tree in the garden to test their faith is nonsensical.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Reader,

Lets look deeper now., into this "Doctrine of [Edit]" that started with Calvin, and was evolved into Hyper-Calvinism (TULIP) "the 5 points".

A "TULIP"> a hyper calvinist, a "5-point">.. is one who believes in Calvinism = extremism .

So, both the Calvinist and the Hyper, have been led to believe that Paul the Apostle is a Calvinist. a 5 Point Hyper Calvinist.
And that is what they TEACH and BELIEVE.

So, lets look at that, and then i'll show you one more, in the next post..

First, lets understand why a person goes to hell and not to heaven..
Its simply because they "died in their sin, never forgiven", and were never born again. So, they died separated from God, by their Sin..
So, that situation, does not allow you to go to Heaven, because you were not forgiven all your sin.... born 'In Christ" as "one with God", before you died.
This is why Jesus told us.....>"YOU, MUST, be born again", and if you are not you are not a Son/Daughter of God when you died, and so your eternity is spent, where those who are not born again Sons/Daughters of God, end up... and that is not in Heaven......
There is only one other option. : HELL.

Now, Calvin and the Hyper-Calvinist, teach that Paul is a 5-point Hyper Calvinist, as they teach that a few verses that Paul wrote, that they SEE as meaning what Calvin teaches and others who evolved Calvins theology in Hyper-Calvinism.., proves that Paul is a Calvinist, and a Hyper Calvinist.
They believe that a few of Paul's verses teach the 5-points of Hyper- Calvinism as well as Calvinism.

So, listen now.... as you have to see this... in your understanding.

If Paul is a Calvinist, then Jesus is a Calvinist....... as Paul RECEIVED all His Theology "not from any man, but from the LORD", Himself.
So, If Paul is a Calvinist, then Jesus is a Calvinist., according to Calvinism and Hyper Calvinism that is "the 5 Points"..(TULIP).

Therefore, if Paul and The Lord Jesus The Christ are both Calvinists, then they will understand "pre-destined" to believe."
They will understand "pre-chosen" to believe"
They will understand "God causes you to believe or you can't".
And they will teach that always.

Now, lets look at some Verses..

1.) "their remainth no more sacrifice for your sin" because you have "willfully sinned", the sin of UNBELIEF... "just as your Father's did".

So, those verses are Hebrews 6 & 10.. .and this one..

“'"You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You ALWAYS RESIST the HOLY Spirit.!""""

So, Hyper Calvinism, teaches that this isn't possible, as you have no free will..
Yet if the Forum member can read, you Just read PAUL tell Christ rejectors, that "THEY...ALWAYS resist the Holy Spirit."
This means that Paul is one confused Calvinist, Hyper Calvinist, or that Calvinism and the "5-points" (TULIP) is a "doctrine of Devils"., as Paul just blamed them for their "resisting the Holy Spirit" that the '5-points" of Hyper Calvinism, says isn't possible.

Now when you read that "you always RESIST THE HOLY SPIRIT", then that is "you are resisting the Truth, that is the Gospel being revealed to you".., and that is also Hebrews 10".. ."If you willfully sin"...(will not believe in Jesus, willfully) there remainth no more JESUS FOR YOU... "there remaineth no more SACRIFICE for your SIN." because of your Willful decision to reject the Sacrifice who is JESUS ON THE CROSS.

So, then If Paul is the "5-point" Hyper Calvinist, who teaches that "you can't choose Christ unless you are caused to believe by the HS"............. then Paul just lied when He taught us that = THEY Resisted the Holy Spirit = Willfully........as does every Christ Rejector.

Notice that Paul didnt say..>>"well, dont worry about it, because you were just not chosen to believe".

Look now at Acts 28:28... as this is actually Hebrews 10... in the Book of the "ACTS of the Apostles."
Paul said to UNBELIEVING JEWS........>>"I will take the Gospel to the Gentiles, and they will Believe it".
So, if these JEWS were "pre-chosen" to not be the "5-Point, Hyper-Calvin" "chosen to believe" .. then you notice that Paul didnt say... "no worries, you can't believe because you are not of the chosen to believe"..

Reader, why did Paul forget all his Hyper-Calvinism, and "TULIP"< "5-points" in these Verses?

A.) Its because Paul is not a Calvinst.. Paul is not a "5-Point " TULIP... = Deceiver.

"Calvinism" gets ONE THING absolutely correct. In all things God, moves FIRST. The rest can be ignored. Christianity doesn't depend on "Systematic theologies". God has given us the HOLY SPIRIT, who will lead us into all truth, if we listen to him single mindedly. (James 1:5)

 

[Presby02]

Presby.....
You don't seem able to respond to my TWO posts on Romans 1:18-20

These are pivotal to understanding Christianity and soteriology.

Maybe if you understood what it states...you'd stop posting about millions that never heard the gospel.

GOD was around even BEFORE the gospel message.

And maybe you can provide evidence that native Americans heard the gospel prior to the arrival of Europeans.

Your posts and proof texts are irrelevant to the topic at hand.

Not every last person has heard the gospel hence not everyone is "invited" as you put it.

 

[Presby02]

What's that funny look on your face Presby?
Are you confused about something?

Your ignorance. LOL. You asked

 

[Presby02]

When did Abraham hear THE GOSPEL??

My guess would be when he was alive. LOL Galatians 3:8

 

[Presby02]

God allowed the potential for evil when he created, which indicates free will. His foreknowledge sees the results and he plans in accordance.

Doug

God is omniscient, there was not simply a potential for evil.

 

[TibiasDad]

God is omniscient, there was not simply a potential for evil.

Foreknowledge is not predestination.


Doug

 

[GodsGrace]

So argument 1 is "you can misinterpret 'all men' in John 12:32 to say something false, so John 6:44 really means the opposite of what it says" [my paraphrase].
I respectfully disagree with the premise. First, DRAW means DRAW in English and Greek, so there is little need to resort to Strongs. However, we were focusing on the first part ... "NO MAN CAN COME TO ME UNLESS" since we were discussing "Total Inability" [The Doctrine of Grace claiming that People are incapable of choosing Salvation unless God does SOMETHING first to initiate the process.]

Therefore DOES John 6:44 speak truth that "no one can come to Jesus unless God the Father does something first [let us set aside "DRAW" for a moment] or did Jesus misspeak since EVERYONE can come to Jesus without God the Father needing to do something first because of our Free Will?

Which is it?

Address Jesus CLEAR statement first, and then we can discuss "DRAW" and what that "something" might be and how universal the draw really is.

Don't know what's difficult to understand.
If DRAW means what the reformed state it means....
to coerce into being taken in....John 6:44 NO MAN CAN COME TO ME UNLESS THE FATHER DRAW HIM....

THEN
John 12:32 means that all men will be saved because JESUS WILL DRAW....coerce all men to be takenn in....TO HIMSELF.

If you quote John 6:44 and put in parenthesis that it is referring to UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION...
then I stand by my statement that this would teach univeralsim.

 

[GodsGrace]

And maybe you can provide evidence that native Americans heard the gospel prior to the arrival of Europeans.

Your posts and proof texts are irrelevant to the topic at hand.

Not every last person has heard the gospel hence not everyone is "invited" as you put it.

You are, apparently, unable to hold a conversation or reply to scripture.

So....out of necessity....
I GIVE UP.

 

[atpollard]

what? are you joking?
All adam had to do was say no eve, God said we are not to eat of this fruit. I am sorry you did.. but i refuse.

... and God would have called-off CHRIST whom he had ALREADY CRUCIFIED according to the Bible?
You really don't see any problem with that?

• [Mat 13:35 ESV] 35 This was to fulfill what was spoken by the prophet: "I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter what has been hidden since the foundation of the world."
• [Mat 25:34 ESV] 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
• [Jhn 17:24 ESV] 24 Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.
• [Eph 1:4 ESV] 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
• [Heb 4:3 ESV] 3 For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, "As I swore in my wrath, 'They shall not enter my rest,'" although his works were finished from the foundation of the world.
• [1Pe 1:20 ESV] 20 He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you
• [Rev 13:8 ESV] 8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.
• [Rev 17:8 ESV] 8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.

Just discard EVERYTHING planned from the foundation of the world and start over because Adam chose contrary to what God knew he was going to choose ... which negates "omniscience".

Once God looked ahead and "saw" what Adam was going to decide, Adam MUST decide that or God was wrong. Therefore, Adam cannot do anything other than what Adam did. That is FATALISM and YOU placed Adam in charge of God's Plan instead of God. Adam acts and God merely reacts to what he KNOWS MUST happen.

 

[GodsGrace]

My guess would be when he was alive. LOL Galatians 3:8

Galatians 3:8 states that Abraham HEARD THE GOSPEL??

8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.
9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

You THINK the above means that the gospel was preached to Abraham???
Maybe you're a Calvinist because you can't even begin to understand scripture.


Like I already stated....
I GIVE UP.