Free-willer Straw Man Argument

[TomL]

"works ALL things according the council of His will." Some is ummm....what is that you accuse others of? Oh wait I know. DENIAL

Um that does not say his will is to determine all things

and in context the reference is to those in Christ and the assurance of an inheritance

Ephesians 1:11 (ESV) — 11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

 

[Presby02]

Um that does not say his will is to determine all things

and in context the reference is to those in Christ and the assurance of an inheritance

Ephesians 1:11 (ESV) — 11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

Yes, and how can we be sure? Because God works out ALL THINGS according to the council of His will.

Classic negative inference fallacy

 

[civic]

Yes, and how can we be sure? Because God works out ALL THINGS according to the council of His will.

Classic negative inference fallacy

yes you just committed the fallacy since its talking about those who are already believers and their salvation. the context says the opposite of what you believe

Ephesians 1:9-14
he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ. 11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

hope this helps !!!

 

[TomL]

Yes, and how can we be sure? Because God works out ALL THINGS according to the council of His will.

Classic negative inference fallacy

You appear to not know what a negative inference fallacies are

The negative inference fallacy says if a proposition is true, it does not follow that a negative inference from that proposition is also true.

Classic negative inference fallacy are

Mark 16:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

and the assumption he who is not baptized is not saved

and

Acts 2:38 (KJV 1900) — 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

and the assumption if not baptized you cannot receive remission of sin

 

[civic]

You appear to not know what a negative inference fallacies are

The negative inference fallacy says if a proposition is true, it does not follow that a negative inference from that proposition is also true.

Classic negative inference fallacy are

Mark 16:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

and the assumption he who is not baptized is not saved

and

Acts 2:38 (KJV 1900) — 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

and the assumption if not baptized you cannot receive remission of sin

someone missed the memo lol

in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

 

[Presby02]

Yes, and how can we be sure? Because God works out ALL THINGS according to the council of His will.

Classic negative inference fallacy

Exactly. So saying that does not mean all things are determined is the negative inference fallacy. Classic example

 

[Presby02]

someone missed the memo lol

in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

Sorry, that does not say God chooses those who choose Him. Or you choose to elect yourself.

 

[Presby02]

yes you just committed the fallacy since its talking about those who are already believers and their salvation. the context says the opposite of what you believe

Ephesians 1:9-14
he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ. 11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

hope this helps !!!

WRONG. Nothing I said commits the negative inference fallacy.

 

[civic]

Sorry, that does not say God chooses those who choose Him. Or you choose to elect yourself.

no one is in Christ until they hear the gospel, then believe the gospel and become saved. that is election spelled out by Paul in the passage. you place the cart before the horse in your theology.

 

[TomL]

Exactly. So saying that does not mean all things are determined is the negative inference fallacy. Classic example

You failed to demonstrate a negative inference fallacy

You first must find an true proposition

then you show that it was argued the negation of it must also be true

 

[TomL]

Sorry, that does not say God chooses those who choose Him. Or you choose to elect yourself.

1 Corinthians 1:21 (KJV 1900) — 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

It seems God chooses to save those that choose to believe on him.

 

[civic]

1 Corinthians 1:21 (KJV 1900) — 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

It seems God chooses to save those that choose to believe on him.

Exactly which is what Paul said in Eph 1:9-14.

 

[Presby02]

1 Corinthians 1:21 (KJV 1900) — 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

It seems God chooses to save those that choose to believe on him.

It does not say the basis of election is your choice to believe.

2 Thessalonians 2:13. "God had chosen you from the beginning". Remember foreknowledge does not determine His choice.

You failed to demonstrate a negative inference fallacy

You first must find an true proposition

then you show that it was argued the negation of it must also be true

So the preposition God does not determine all things. You agree God determines some things. Which you also presuppose.

 

[Presby02]

no one is in Christ until they hear the gospel, then believe the gospel and become saved. that is election spelled out by Paul in the passage. you place the cart before the horse in your theology.

That's impossible from the foundation of the world. Whoops. See Ephesians 1. 2 Thessalonians 2:13

 

[The Rogue Tomato]

It does not say the basis of election is your choice to believe.

2 Thessalonians 2:13. "God had chosen you from the beginning". Remember foreknowledge does not determine His choice.

So the preposition God does not determine all things. You agree God determines some things. Which you also presuppose.

Careful with that word. Foresight does not determine His choice. Foreknowledge (he knew us beforehand) does. Those He foreknew vs. depart from me, I never knew you.

 

[civic]

That's impossible from the foundation of the world. Whoops. See Ephesians 1. 2 Thessalonians 2:13

sorry you are conflating foreknowledge/omniscience with determinism/fatalism.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Careful with that word. Foresight does not determine His choice. Foreknowledge (he knew us beforehand) does. Those He foreknew vs. depart from me, I never knew you.

You can't prove that God "knew you" beforehand. It is nothing but more self serving nonsense.

 

[Presby02]

Careful with that word. Foresight does not determine His choice. Foreknowledge (he knew us beforehand) does. Those He foreknew vs. depart from me, I never knew you.

Exactly. They have a problem. They will scream foreknowledge is not determination yet the choice is made from the beginning or from the foundation of the world. So it's not based on your choice 6000 years later.

 

[Presby02]

sorry you are conflating foreknowledge/omniscience with determinism/fatalism.

A simple statement that is unsupported. Which is proof of nothing.

 

[civic]

A simple statement that is unsupported. Which is proof of nothing.

Whom He foreknew ( prior knowledge ) He also predestined.

oops.

Next

hope this helps !!!