Free-willer Straw Man Argument

The Rogue Tomato

Well-known member
If we don't have free will, then we are robots with no will at all. (And 1,000 thematic variants, like "if we don't have free will, creation is deterministic and fatalistic".)

This is actually a tutti fruitti of logical fallacies, including "Straw Man", "No Third Option", and "Non-Sequitur".
 
If we don't have free will, then we are robots with no will at all. (And 1,000 thematic variants, like "if we don't have free will, creation is deterministic and fatalistic".)

This is actually a tutti fruitti of logical fallacies, including "Straw Man", "No Third Option", and "Non-Sequitur".
Care to support your claims with some evidence?

BTW it is not creation but Calvinism which is deterministic and fatalism

If God merely foresaw human events, and did not also arrange and dispose of them at his pleasure, there might be room for agitating the question, how far his foreknowledge amounts to necessity; but since he foresees the things which are to happen, simply because he has decreed that they are so to happen, it is vain to debate about prescience, while it is clear that all events take place by his sovereign appointment.
(John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)



…God is the only being who is ultimately self-determining, and is himself ultimately the disposer of all things, including all choices — however many or diverse other intervening causes are. On this definition, no human being has free will, at any time. Neither before or after the fall, or in heaven, are creatures ultimately self-determining
A beginners guide to free will

God . . . brings about all things in accordance with his will. In other words, it isn’t just that God manages to turn the evil aspects of our world to good for those who love him; it is rather that he himself brings about these evil aspects for his glory (see Ex. 9:13-16; John 9:3) and his people’s good (see Heb. 12:3-11; James 1:2-4). This includes—as incredible and as unacceptable as it may currently seem—God’s having even brought about the Nazis’ brutality at Birkenau and Auschwitz as well as the terrible killings of Dennis Rader and even the sexual abuse of a young child…




Nothing that exists or occurs falls outside God’s ordaining will. Nothing, including no evil person or thing or event or deed. God’s foreordination is the ultimate reason why everything comes about, including the existence of all evil persons and things and the occurrence of any evil acts or events. And so it is not inappropriate to take God to be the creator, the sender, the permitter, and sometimes even the instigator of evil… Nothing — no evil thing or person or event or deed — falls outside God’s ordaining will. Nothing arises, exists, or endures independently of God’s will. So when even the worst of evils befall us, they do not ultimately come from anywhere other than God’s hand.

b Talbot, "All the Good That Is Ours in Christ", in Suffering and the Sovereignty of God, ed. John Piper and Justin Taylor,

Quote may be found




how foolish and frail is the support of divine justice afforded by the suggestion that evils come to be, not by His will but by His permission…It is a quite frivolous refuge to say that God otiosely permits them, when Scripture shows Him not only willing, but the author of them…Who does not tremble at these judgments with which God works in the hearts of even the wicked whatever He will, rewarding them nonetheless according to desert? Again it is quite clear from the evidence of Scripture that God works in the hearts of men to incline their wills just as he will, whether to good for His mercy’s sake, or to evil according to their merits. ” (John Calvin, “The Eternal Predestination of God,” 10:11)

Calvinist; Dr. James N. Anderson, of the Reformed Theological Seminary, Charlotte NC, in his published work; Calvinism and the first sin, states the underlying proposition: “It should be conceded at the outset, and without embarrassment, that Calvinism is indeed committed to divine determinism: the view that everything is ultimately determined by God…..take it for granted as something on which the vast majority of Calvinists uphold, and may be expressed as the following: “For every event [E], God decided that [E] should happen and that decision alone was the ultimate sufficient cause of [E].

Calvinism and the problem of evil pg 204.205
 
If we don't have free will, then we are robots with no will at all. (And 1,000 thematic variants, like "if we don't have free will, creation is deterministic and fatalistic".)

This is actually a tutti fruitti of logical fallacies, including "Straw Man", "No Third Option", and "Non-Sequitur".
It's easily turned back around on them. If God is omniscient and your choices are foreknown for certain then your a robot. Your choices are a illusion. You cannot choose otherwise. It's fatalism.
 
If we don't have free will, then we are robots with no will at all. (And 1,000 thematic variants, like "if we don't have free will, creation is deterministic and fatalistic".)

This is actually a tutti fruitti of logical fallacies, including "Straw Man", "No Third Option", and "Non-Sequitur".
Free will in angel and man is an illusion.
And no, not having free will does not make us robots.
The word robot didn't even exist.
We have a will that is bound by our ability and our existence in time.
I cannot will to fly without an apparatus, nor can I will to live eternally.
By virtue of our being created by a God that neither has free will as we do, but has one will, and that is to do Good. And in use of this will He can do good or do nothing. But He cannot do evil. This is impossible for Him. Still, we have a limited free will in which we can set our clocks to get up at 6am or 9am, to choose chocolate over vanilla, and to choose blue pants or black shorts to wear with a shirt or pullover. By being created we cannot will to do anything beyond our ability to perform. And our ability is limited considering what is created and what is eternal. Living in the natural world we cannot will to do anything of a spiritual matter. We cannot will to change our sex nor will to save ourselves beyond the limit of our lives knowing also that we can will to kill ourselves. And from birth to natural death, we can only will to live within the means of our ability. God who created us did so with one outcome and that is death. That is our destiny. We are all ordained to die. This doesn't make us robots for robots function by program. We are not programmed. We have abilities beyond what can be programmed into a robot.
 
It's easily turned back around on them. If God is omniscient and your choices are foreknown for certain then your a robot. Your choices are a illusion. You cannot choose otherwise. It's fatalism.
Clear category error

foreknowledge does not determine ones course of action or thought
 
It's easily turned back around on them. If God is omniscient and your choices are foreknown for certain then your a robot. Your choices are a illusion. You cannot choose otherwise. It's fatalism.
strawman- foreknowledge is not predestination, determinism , fatalism. and we know that calvinism is fatalism.
 
strawman- foreknowledge is not predestination, determinism , fatalism. and we know that calvinism is fatalism.
Sorry, but if a choice is foreknown for certain and what God foreknows has truth value then it is impossible for you to choose otherwise. Your choice is an illusion. Your a fatalist.
 
Free will in angel and man is an illusion.
And no, not having free will does not make us robots.
The word robot didn't even exist.

The word "robot" doesn't exist? Who you kidding?

You are a robot to your choices.

Choices are options.

We have a will that is bound by our ability and our existence in time.

God exists in time. Your will is bound by your mind. Don't conflate this nonsense to other men that have a different mind.

I cannot will to fly without an apparatus, nor can I will to live eternally.

LOL... Look at the OP being abandoned from the start.....

Do you know what a logical fallacy is?
 
No one said it did. Reading comprehension defincey.

So again, Provisionist who proclaim God's omniscience are fatalists. Your choice is a illusion. You cannot choose otherwise.
Your words indicate otherwise

If God is omniscient and your choices are foreknown for certain then your a robot. Your choices are a illusion. You cannot choose otherwise. It's fatalism.

Only if you are determined can it be stated you are a robot
 
The word "robot" doesn't exist? Who you kidding?

You are a robot to your choices.

Choices are options.



God exists in time. Your will is bound by your mind. Don't conflate this nonsense to other men that have a different mind.



LOL... Look at the OP being abandoned from the start.....

Do you know what a logical fallacy is?
No, I am no robot to choices I make for I am free indeed.
 
Your words indicate otherwise

If God is omniscient and your choices are foreknown for certain then your a robot. Your choices are a illusion. You cannot choose otherwise. It's fatalism.

Only if you are determined can it be stated you are a robot
ditto
 
It's easily turned back around on them. If God is omniscient and your choices are foreknown for certain then your a robot. Your choices are a illusion. You cannot choose otherwise. It's fatalism.

Their brains are too tiny and their pride too inflated to grasp man having self-will, yet all things are foreordained. "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good." They don't like that verse, but it says what it says.
 
Their brains are too tiny and their pride too inflated to grasp man having self-will, yet all things are foreordained. "You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good." They don't like that verse, but it says what it says.
Now try fitting that statement into every evil ever committed

and support it biblically
 
Sorry but that is false

You cannot prove all things with one thing

Everyone believe God determines some things
"works ALL things according the council of His will." Some is ummm....what is that you accuse others of? Oh wait I know. DENIAL
 
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