You have no idea-and @civic is enjoying this with you-but it is no skin of my nose and if you want to stay stunted in your growth that's on you, ain't it?
Favoritism in Unconditional Election
- Thread starter praise_yeshua
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The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Quote the confessed belief in predetermined foreknowledge, and I will respond to that.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
What value do you expect to get out of this?
I've tried many times in my life to "forge" ahead when God had other plans for me. Chastening isn't fun.
If the Calvinist were right, there would never be any chastening for them. After all, they are chosen. Christ was perfect wasn't He? Can anyone lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is Christ that justifies.....
Time to "crow" here. Boasting is required.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
You've changed recently. I'm glad you have. You're mellowing a little. I welcome it. You are trying to form a more consistent response. You've never been dumb. You're an intelligent person but your are still resisting. I know you can respond "in kind".
Tell me what you believe in this. I will accept it. Don't you believe in foreknowledge being the power of God to accomplish exactly what He wanted before you were born?
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
No, that's not what I believe.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Can you give tell us what you believe about this?
Romans 4:16 (KJV 1900) — 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
That verse does not prove that faith is something that comes from us. It simply explains that it cannot be of works. The context begins here (after the part about the fact that Abraham believed God without circumcision):
13 For not through law [is] the promise to Abraham, or to his seed, of his being heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith;
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
Taken from the same chapter:
4 and to him who is working, the reward is not reckoned of grace, but of debt;
So if you claim "This is the work of God" means "This is the work required by God", then salvation is the reward of debt, not grace.
4 and to him who is working, the reward is not reckoned of grace, but of debt;
So if you claim "This is the work of God" means "This is the work required by God", then salvation is the reward of debt, not grace.
Salvation is based on faith rather than adherence to the law, in order to emphasize God's grace and ensure that the promise of salvation is certain for all who share Abraham's faith, thus highlighting Abraham's significance as a spiritual father to believers of all nations.
Romans 4:11 (NIV): "And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them."
Galatians 3:7 (NIV): "Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham."
Galatians 3:9 (NIV): "So those who rely on faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith."
Galatians 3:29 (NIV): "If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise."
James 2:23 (NIV): "And the scripture was fulfilled that says, 'Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,' and he was called God’s friend."
Hebrews 11:8-12 (NIV): This passage recounts Abraham's faith journey and highlights his significance as a model of faith for all believers.
These verses emphasize that Abraham is not only the physical ancestor of the Jewish people but also the spiritual father of all who share his faith in God. Believers from every nation are considered children of Abraham through their faith in Jesus Christ, and they inherit the promises of God alongside him.
Luke 14:26 (KJV 1900) — 26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
That was not its purpose but to show faith as a condition is consistent with grace
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
I agree 100% with that text, but I don't see the relevance here.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
It's a condition, but the text does not say faith is something we do apart from the work of God. Again:
4 and to him who is working, the reward is not reckoned of grace, but of debt;
So if you claim "This is the work of God" means "This is the work required by God", then salvation is the reward of debt, not grace.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Which you deny. Faith is never a work.
brightfame52
Well-known member
If its of conditions you must meet, its no longer grace ! Its works
brightfame52
Well-known member
Its never a condition.
The Rogue Tomato
Well-known member
If faith is never a work, then the verse "This is the work of God" cannot be changed to mean "This is the work required by God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent (faith)".
sorry but again you substitute your understanding for the word of God
by failing to address a passage in its context and equivocating on word meaning
In john, work is anything you do
In Paul work speaks to what you have earned
He is clear that faith on the part of the believer does not earn salvation.
praise_yeshua
Well-known member
Not true. You still owe a debt. You are indebted. Your living sacrifice is a reasonable SERVICE.
You are misread the reference.
Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
No matter how you slice it.... faith is never a work. However, your indebtedness to the work of Christ requires YOUR living sacrifice.
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