Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[praise_yeshua]

Sure you can. Psalm 19:12 shows the psalmist asking God to "forgive me of my hidden faults".

His thoughts were not hidden from God....

Heb 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

You're hiding thoughts from everyone yourself. You can't hide them from God. The Psalmist knew this. You don't. Read it again.

I don't have that authority because I am God's Son! I am not the Christ. But I do have His mandate to watch those who call themselves my brothers and sisters in Christ and help to point out faults they have (as do ALL who are in Christ). We are called to continually be on our guard against false doctrines in the Church, and to teach the truth. Thus I do have the mandate from God to point out your false doctrines.

That is such an empty argument. It is nothing more than self assertion. Though I believe I'm right, I don't call God down into my arguments. They are mine. I say they are mine. I don't have any authority. You don't either.

 

[Doug Brents]

I didn't say those exact words and your changes to what I said betray your intent.

Thoughts don't save. Can we move on now?

What was your intent then? You said that you were saved before you were baptized (Post 3417). Scripture says that you cannot be saved before you are baptized (John 3:5, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, 1 Pet 3:21, etc.). So clearly you were mistaken in your feeling and understanding.

You are right, thoughts don't save; faith (which requires action (James 2:20, 22, 24, 26)) does (Eph 2:8-9).

 

[praise_yeshua]

What was your intent then? You said that you were saved before you were baptized (Post 3417). Scripture says that you cannot be saved before you are baptized (John 3:5, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14, 1 Pet 3:21, etc.). So clearly you were mistaken in your feeling and understanding.

You are right, thoughts don't save; faith (which requires action (James 2:20, 22, 24, 26)) does (Eph 2:8-9).

I'm sure you the arbitrator of what actions are required.... right?

I don't accept generic references such as you're providing. I've read those words many times before. Copy and paste doesn't work on me.

I'm not going to get into this on this thread. Invite me to one about the subject.

 

[Doug Brents]

I'm sure you the arbitrator of what actions are required.... right?

Nope. God is. And He told us what actions are required in the Scriptures.
Acts 3:19 - Repent so that you can be forgiven
Rom 10:9-10 - Confess Jesus as Lord so that you can receive salvation
John 3:5, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, 1 Pet 3:21, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14 - Baptism is the point at which we die to sin/receive eternal life/are reborn/are saved

I don't accept generic references such as you're providing. I've read those words many times before. Copy and paste doesn't work on me.

I'm not going to get into this on this thread. Invite me to one about the subject.

There are many threads on this forum on which I have debated this topic. Pick one and we can continue. OSAS does bear on the necessity of baptism for salvation, because many proponents of OSAS also purport "faith only salvation", and their argument reads something like, "since we didn't do anything to receive our salvation, nothing we do can cause us to lose our salvation", which is a false statement all around.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Nope. God is. And He told us what actions are required in the Scriptures.
Acts 3:19 - Repent so that you can be forgiven
Rom 10:9-10 - Confess Jesus as Lord so that you can receive salvation
John 3:5, Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, 1 Pet 3:21, Rom 6:1-7, Col 2:11-14 - Baptism is the point at which we die to sin/receive eternal life/are reborn/are saved

There are many threads on this forum on which I have debated this topic. Pick one and we can continue. OSAS does bear on the necessity of baptism for salvation, because many proponents of OSAS also purport "faith only salvation", and their argument reads something like, "since we didn't do anything to receive our salvation, nothing we do can cause us to lose our salvation", which is a false statement all around.

Your primary problem is believing that God is speaking to you personally when you read what God said to others as recorded in the Scriptures.

Why is that? You're not even part of the conversation and yet you endless pretend you are.

Why is that? You must first understood who is part of the verses you reference.

How about a video debate? That would be easier for me and quicker. Easy debate.

 

[Doug Brents]

Your primary problem is believing that God is speaking to you personally when you read what God said to others as recorded in the Scriptures.

Why is that? You're not even part of the conversation and yet you endless pretend you are.

Why is that? You must first understood who is part of the verses you reference.

Quite a lot of Scripture (the NT especially), while directed originally at the ancient audience, is also directed at us. John 3:5 for instance says that NO ONE (meaning not only Nicodemus but everyone living between Jesus' statement and today (and into the future)) can enter the Kingdom of God without being reborn of water and the Spirit (both).

The purpose of having things like the conversion of the Ethiopian Eunuch, Saul, the Corinthian Jailer, and others recorded in Scripture is to give examples and instruction on how things are and how they must be done in God's Kingdom.

There certainly are some places in the NT Scripture where a command or statement only applies to the direct audience (the command to the "rich young ruler" for instance), but for the most part (and unless there is clear and compelling reason to believe otherwise) commands and statements in Scripture are applicable to us today just as they were to the original audience.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Quite a lot of Scripture (the NT especially), while directed originally at the ancient audience, is also directed at us. John 3:5 for instance says that NO ONE (meaning not only Nicodemus but everyone living between Jesus' statement and today (and into the future)) can enter the Kingdom of God without being reborn of water and the Spirit (both).

Water does give life but not how you're referencing it. There is nothing in this narrative that establishes that the process of baptism is the "water" event Jesus is talking about. That your conflation.

The purpose of having things like the conversion of the Ethiopian Eunuch, Saul, the Corinthian Jailer, and others recorded in Scripture is to give examples and instruction on how things are and how they must be done in God's Kingdom.

All examples of your conflation. Sure, they obeyed the appeal to baptism but they obeyed other things as well that weren't necessary for salvation. Things you're not including here.

The Ethiopian Eunuch literally said that he couldn't understand Isaiah without Phillip. That was Phillips issue. Not my issue. I didn't need Phillip to preach to me Jesus.

So, why don't you require Phillip to be part of salvation?

What about the words of Isaiah? Are they required for me as well?

You're falsely requiring water baptism while leaving out other portions of the salvation experiences of these references? How about Saul? Do I need to wait on Ananias?

You're not qualified to baptize anyone. You seem to believe you can just say you are and "poof" you are....

God sent John The Baptist. Jesus sent the apostles. You're not either of them.

 

[Gabby]

This sounds like works salvation and it's results.

10 Who is among you who [reverently] fears the Lord, who obeys the voice of His Servant, yet who walks in darkness and deep trouble and has no shining splendor [in his heart]? Let him rely on, trust in, and be confident in the name of the Lord, and let him lean upon and be supported by his God.

11 Behold, all you [enemies of your own selves] who attempt to kindle your own fires [and work out your own plans of salvation], who surround and gird yourselves with momentary sparks, darts, and firebrands that you set aflame!—walk by the light of your self-made fire and of the sparks that you have kindled [for yourself, if you will]! But this shall you have from My hand: you shall lie down in grief and in torment.
Isaiah 50:11

 

[FreeInChrist]

Ah, so you believe people can save themselves, or that there are those out there who do not require Jesus at all to be saved, but can simply waltz into heaven. Nice. What total depravity says is that every part of man is sinful.

What this means is that God's original intent in creating man to begin with was to make man as a bundle of sin.

Every part of man has been corrupted by sin.

Made by his creator, that way.

There is no righteousness to be found in man outside of Christ/salvation.

But here is the rub. ON THIS EVERY SINGLE "true" CHRISTIAN knows this to be true.

But the difference in how said "true" Christian comes to his/her personal faith is the issue.

You believe that without the Father putting the desire in you... IOW "electing" you it is impossible.

I believe that the Father not only is capable, but has instilled in every human being a desire... so to speak that allows
everyone to watch, look and listen and then make their own choice what road they will follow.

NO IT ISNT... My beliefs are NOT predestined ones at all.

Through out the bible we read of those who were taught. We read of those who believed. We read of those who hungered for a baptism. (Eunuch) We rea of those who are who are caught in a turmoil and are in the presence of truly predestined men
who this person asked " “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” (Acts 16:30).... and the simple reply 31They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

What did the jailer mean by his statement? As a heathen Roman (cf. Alford, 1980, 2:184), he no doubt had been exposed to Greek/Roman mythology his entire life. Christianity had been introduced into Macedonia only days earlier when Paul arrived in Philippi (16:12; cf. Ramsay, p. 215). So it is unlikely that he possessed more than a cursory understanding of the Christian notion of salvation from sin. But events occurred in those days leading up to his conversion that may account for the jailer’s question.

Now it happened, as we went to prayer, that a certain slave girl possessed with a spirit of divination met us, who brought her masters much profit by fortune-telling. This girl followed Paul and us, and cried out, saying, “These men are the servants of the Most High God, who proclaim to us the way of salvation.” And this she did for many days (Acts 16:16-18, emp. added).

Observe that the demon within the girl announced to the citizens of Philippi over a period of “many days” the fact that Paul and Silas were representatives of the one true God, and that they possessed the information that would show people the way to salvation. In all likelihood, the jailer would have heard this declaration either firsthand or through the reports of friends, neighbors, relatives, or other townspeople.

When Paul finally expelled the demon from the girl, her irate masters assaulted him and Silas, dragged them before the magistrates of the city, and subjected them to the legal proceedings that ultimately landed them in the prison where they encountered the jailer. It is not out of the realm of possibility that the jailer was privy to these proceedings, which surely would have included reference to their alleged identity as “servants of the Most High God” who had information pertaining to “the way of salvation.”

A third means by which the jailer could have come into possession of sufficient information that would account for the phrasing of his question can be seen in verse 25: “But at midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them.” The jailer may well have heard the hymns that Paul and Silas sang—songs that would have included references to God, Christ, and salvation.

These three circumstances may account for the jailer’s request to be informed about salvation—albeit, even then, his understanding must have been very piecemeal. Paul’s response to the jailer’s question was: “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household” (vs. 31). What did Paul mean by this statement? If he meant what many within Christendom think he meant, that is, if the jailer already knew who Jesus was, and if Paul was urging him simply to believe (i.e., simply to “accept Christ into his heart as his personal savior”), then we should next expect the text to provide the jailer’s response—something to the effect that the jailer accepted Jesus Christ as his savior, or that he believed on Jesus right then and there and was saved.

However, to the contrary, the text says: “Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him” (vs. 32). Why? Didn’t Paul just do that by telling the jailer to believe? Apparently not! Paul later wrote that “faith comes by hearing…the word of God” (Romans 10:17). So the jailer needed to hear additional information that would enable him to know what it means to believe in Jesus. It follows, then, that the instruction, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ” was simply a broad, sweeping statement intended to redirect the jailer’s then-present religious attachment to the pagan gods of Greek/Roman mythology toward the true object of belief—Christ. It was a way to reorient the jailer’s thinking in the direction of Jesus, as contrasted with his own pagan notions. But simply telling the jailer (or anyone today) to “believe on Jesus” does not provide sufficient information on how to believe. In other words, there is more to “believing on Jesus” than simply affirming in one’s mind that Jesus is Lord and Savior (a fact readily conceded even by Satan and the demons—Genesis 3:15; Matthew 4:3,6; Luke 22:31; Hebrews 2:14; James 2:19; Revelation 12:4ff.).

It was only in speaking the word of the Lord to the jailer that he could understand who Christ is, what Christianity is about, and the proper response to the preached Word—i.e., what it means to “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.” Since the jailer could not be saved before Paul spoke the Word of the Lord to him, observe the sequence of events that the text reports immediately after the Word was spoken to him.

-------------------
Now the jailer was not predestined as his conversion and belief did not come until he expressed a desire of wanting to be saved.

He had heard the "good news" and in these circumstances understood that what he had heard was correct and
made an informed decision by his own choice.

They are totally depraved, and as such incapable of saving themselves. This is what Jesus is saying when in response to "then who can be saved", He said "With man it is impossible..." full stop on man. Impossible. Not improbable, or may not happen. IMPOSSIBLE. However, "WITH GOD" it becomes possible.

 

[Doug Brents]

Water does give life but not how you're referencing it. There is nothing in this narrative that establishes that the process of baptism is the "water" event Jesus is talking about. That your conflation.

No, it is not. 1 Pet 3:21 says that we are saved through baptism in water by the actions of the Spirit. John 3:5 says we cannot enter the Kingdom of God without being reborn of water and the Spirit. Rom 6:1-7 and Col 2:11-14 both say that we lose our sin and are united to Christ in baptism, where we are resurrected by the same Spirit that resurrected Jesus. There is no conflation there.

All examples of your conflation. Sure, they obeyed the appeal to baptism but they obeyed other things as well that weren't necessary for salvation. Things you're not including here.

There are only three actions in Scripture that it says LEAD TO or RESULT IN our receiving salvation. Nothing else is necessary.

The Ethiopian Eunuch literally said that he couldn't understand Isaiah without Phillip. That was Phillips issue. Not my issue. I didn't need Phillip to preach to me Jesus.

So, why don't you require Phillip to be part of salvation?

Philip isn't part of salvation. The Scriptures are. And as Rom 10:14-15 says, how can they believe without a preacher. It sometimes takes a preacher to explain the Gospel, as Philip did, so that the student can come to a right understanding of what is written.

What about the words of Isaiah? Are they required for me as well?

Again, no. The words of Isaiah point toward the Christ. The whole of the OT points forward toward Jesus. The whole of the NT points back toward Jesus.

You're falsely requiring water baptism while leaving out other portions of the salvation experiences of these references? How about Saul? Do I need to wait on Ananias?

We need a preacher/teacher (as all who are saved are called to be in Matt 28:19). It doesn't have to be Ananias, but it does need to be someone to teach and then baptize.

You're not qualified to baptize anyone. You seem to believe you can just say you are and "poof" you are....

God sent John The Baptist. Jesus sent the apostles. You're not either of them.

God sent all who come to Him. Read Matt 28:18-20:
"And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. 19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to follow all that I commanded you; and behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."
This command is part of what Jesus commanded the Apostles to teach to their students, which means that their students would then teach this same thing to their students... all the way down to you and me. So we have been given authority by Jesus, who has ALL authority, to go, make students, baptize them into Christ, and then teach them to continue the cycle.

So yes, I am qualified to baptize people (I just baptized my oldest daughter into Christ this last Sunday).

 

[armylngst]

What this means is that God's original intent in creating man to begin with was to make man as a bundle of sin.

SO, you are happy with possibly being wrong, and thus slandering God? I mean, has anyone made it clear to you that God's purpose in creating at all was to bring glory to Himself? What does that have to do with what you say above? Consider that God's intent may possibly be to bring glory in Himself through the salvation of His creation. And then realize that perhaps, since we are simply created beings, that we cannot possibly hope to understand the full body of God's thoughts and intentions, and perhaps we should... back of and not run where angels fear to tread.

Made by his creator, that way.

You should consider Paul's take on the clay and the potter, specifically the part where it asks who are you, oh man, to talk back at your Creator? If you want to understand the missing depth of what you said, and about God... so what if God made us that way? What standing do you have to say anything back at God? Who are you to judge God?

But here is the rub. ON THIS EVERY SINGLE "true" CHRISTIAN knows this to be true.

But the difference in how said "true" Christian comes to his/her personal faith is the issue.

You believe that without the Father putting the desire in you... IOW "electing" you it is impossible.

Wow, um, I read that you say that this is what I believe, however... it isn't. You apparently don't understand what election is. Try explaining what Jesus meant in response to the disciples question "Then who can be saved?" His response "With man this is impossible..." FULL STOP. He doesn't speak of man again after this, other then saying it is impossible. Now if God, the Creator of mankind says something is impossible, does that mean that it is possible? This is GOD saying it is IMPOSSIBLE. However, He then says BUT (not AND), BUT with God, all things are possible. Now can you tell me where Jesus is saying anything about desire?

I believe that the Father not only is capable, but has instilled in every human being a desire... so to speak that allows
everyone to watch, look and listen and then make their own choice what road they will follow.

Is that why we have a thus says the Lord that there are none righteous, no not one, none that does good, and none that seeks after God. NONE. Again this isn't some human saying it looks like there may be no one, but the Creator of the universe saying there are NONE. And what is the reason this Creator of the universe gives for this? Each have gone their own way. There is nothing here that says God did anything. Everything that happens to these people who are not seeking God has its own soundtrack. "I did it my way."

NO IT ISNT... My beliefs are NOT predestined ones at all.

Through out the bible we read of those who were taught. We read of those who believed. We read of those who hungered for a baptism. (Eunuch) We rea of those who are who are caught in a turmoil and are in the presence of truly predestined men
who this person asked " “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” (Acts 16:30).... and the simple reply 31They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

What did the jailer mean by his statement? As a heathen Roman (cf. Alford, 1980, 2:184), he no doubt had been exposed to Greek/Roman mythology his entire life. Christianity had been introduced into Macedonia only days earlier when Paul arrived in Philippi (16:12; cf. Ramsay, p. 215). So it is unlikely that he possessed more than a cursory understanding of the Christian notion of salvation from sin. But events occurred in those days leading up to his conversion that may account for the jailer’s question.

Paul had been in prison for a little while, which means the jailer got to hear him sings, listen to them (Silas was with him as well as others) talk, watch how they acted, etc. Consider that any prisoner in that circumstance would have booked it as soon as they could. However, due to Paul, the prisoners remained saving the life of that jailer. Having seen such people, having heard some of what they are talking about, having been convicted by God, he is basically asking what he needs to do to be saved like them. Did it happen right then. NO. Paul went and preached to him and his family.

Observe that the demon within the girl announced to the citizens of Philippi over a period of “many days” the fact that Paul and Silas were representatives of the one true God, and that they possessed the information that would show people the way to salvation. In all likelihood, the jailer would have heard this declaration either firsthand or through the reports of friends, neighbors, relatives, or other townspeople.

That is another possibility, but consider that many were not affected by what the girl was saying. And then they ALL turned on them despite what the girl was saying. Did Paul cast out the demon because of the girl?No, but Acts 16:18 "But Paul was greatly annoyed..." That is what it took. Paul getting annoyed.

When Paul finally expelled the demon from the girl, her irate masters assaulted him and Silas, dragged them before the magistrates of the city, and subjected them to the legal proceedings that ultimately landed them in the prison where they encountered the jailer. It is not out of the realm of possibility that the jailer was privy to these proceedings, which surely would have included reference to their alleged identity as “servants of the Most High God” who had information pertaining to “the way of salvation.”

You are quick to add to God's word. You seem to believe that the people who seized Paul and Barnabbas were righteous, and that they actually cared about the young girl beyond the money she brought in. What did they say

"19 But when her masters saw that their hope of profit was suddenly gone [no mention of girl here], they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace before the authorities, 20 and when they had brought them to the chief magistrates, they said, “These men, Jews as they are, are causing our city trouble, 21 and they are proclaiming customs that are not lawful for us to accept or to practice, since we are Romans.”"

So the owners don't care the identity of Paul and Silas. They only care about the fact that their profit stream is now gone. So what did they do? They came up with the one thing that would rile up the leadership and people against Paul and Silas. They are proclaiming things to the people that are illegal, because they are Romans. *GASP!!* How dare they. You can see how much they cared for the little girl, and weren't in it all over simply money. Or you can see that they are so upset over the loss of profit that they didn't hold back in attacking Paul and Silas. What they proclaimed for Saul and Silas was high crime, perhaps worthy of death. That is how upset they were.

A third means by which the jailer could have come into possession of sufficient information that would account for the phrasing of his question can be seen in verse 25: “But at midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them.” The jailer may well have heard the hymns that Paul and Silas sang—songs that would have included references to God, Christ, and salvation.

I believe that is one of the few if only ways the jailer heard, which would explain why Paul went with him later to his household and preached to them the gospel.

These three circumstances may account for the jailer’s request to be informed about salvation—albeit, even then, his understanding must have been very piecemeal. Paul’s response to the jailer’s question was: “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household” (vs. 31). What did Paul mean by this statement? If he meant what many within Christendom think he meant, that is, if the jailer already knew who Jesus was, and if Paul was urging him simply to believe (i.e., simply to “accept Christ into his heart as his personal savior”), then we should next expect the text to provide the jailer’s response—something to the effect that the jailer accepted Jesus Christ as his savior, or that he believed on Jesus right then and there and was saved.

However, to the contrary, the text says: “Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him” (vs. 32). Why? Didn’t Paul just do that by telling the jailer to believe? Apparently not! Paul later wrote that “faith comes by hearing…the word of God” (Romans 10:17). So the jailer needed to hear additional information that would enable him to know what it means to believe in Jesus. It follows, then, that the instruction, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ” was simply a broad, sweeping statement intended to redirect the jailer’s then-present religious attachment to the pagan gods of Greek/Roman mythology toward the true object of belief—Christ. It was a way to reorient the jailer’s thinking in the direction of Jesus, as contrasted with his own pagan notions. But simply telling the jailer (or anyone today) to “believe on Jesus” does not provide sufficient information on how to believe. In other words, there is more to “believing on Jesus” than simply affirming in one’s mind that Jesus is Lord and Savior (a fact readily conceded even by Satan and the demons—Genesis 3:15; Matthew 4:3,6; Luke 22:31; Hebrews 2:14; James 2:19; Revelation 12:4ff.).

Regeneration comes first. Regeneration is not salvation, but the dead spirit, incapable of understanding the spiritual nature of the gospel is brought to life, and they are no longer simply "natural men", but now can understand the spiritual message in the gospel. With regeneration (or before?) comes conviction due to understanding. The jailer did not know the gospel, so Paul went with the jailer and preached to him and his household. And you are right, intelectual assent is not faith/belief.

It was only in speaking the word of the Lord to the jailer that he could understand who Christ is, what Christianity is about, and the proper response to the preached Word—i.e., what it means to “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.” Since the jailer could not be saved before Paul spoke the Word of the Lord to him, observe the sequence of events that the text reports immediately after the Word was spoken to him.

And the jailer was saved because he was one of God's elect. He was predestined for that moment. If God is not in control, God is not the Creator. He would be, as some believe, some traveling being who came across Earth, and found some hominids, and presented Himself to them, and so our story begins.

Now the jailer was not predestined as his conversion and belief did not come until he expressed a desire of wanting to be saved.

So your God is clueless, and has to wait for some person's actions? Just what control do people have over God? Why do you believe people can thwart God? Has the created become higher than the Creator that they hold anything over Him? The question you MUST consider is... does God have the right to choose who HE wants to spend His eternity with... as Creator? Or, is He sitting on His throne in suspense, wondering just what is going on in His creation, and just who will choose Him, after He has already said that no one does?

He had heard the "good news" and in these circumstances understood that what he had heard was correct and
made an informed decision by his own choice.

That's something natural man would say, considering there is not one thing spiritual in that whole sentence. All natural. All material. Nothing spiritual.

 

[FreeInChrist]

SO, you are happy with possibly being wrong, and thus slandering God? I mean, has anyone made it clear to you that God's purpose in creating at all was to bring glory to Himself? What does that have to do with what you say above? Consider that God's intent may possibly be to bring glory in Himself through the salvation of His creation. And then realize that perhaps, since we are simply created beings, that we cannot possibly hope to understand the full body of God's thoughts and intentions, and perhaps we should... back of and not run where angels fear to tread.

You should consider Paul's take on the clay and the potter, specifically the part where it asks who are you, oh man, to talk back at your Creator? If you want to understand the missing depth of what you said, and about God... so what if God made us that way? What standing do you have to say anything back at God? Who are you to judge God?

Wow, um, I read that you say that this is what I believe, however... it isn't. You apparently don't understand what election is. Try explaining what Jesus meant in response to the disciples question "Then who can be saved?" His response "With man this is impossible..." FULL STOP. He doesn't speak of man again after this, other then saying it is impossible. Now if God, the Creator of mankind says something is impossible, does that mean that it is possible? This is GOD saying it is IMPOSSIBLE. However, He then says BUT (not AND), BUT with God, all things are possible. Now can you tell me where Jesus is saying anything about desire?

Is that why we have a thus says the Lord that there are none righteous, no not one, none that does good, and none that seeks after God. NONE. Again this isn't some human saying it looks like there may be no one, but the Creator of the universe saying there are NONE. And what is the reason this Creator of the universe gives for this? Each have gone their own way. There is nothing here that says God did anything. Everything that happens to these people who are not seeking God has its own soundtrack. "I did it my way."

Paul had been in prison for a little while, which means the jailer got to hear him sings, listen to them (Silas was with him as well as others) talk, watch how they acted, etc. Consider that any prisoner in that circumstance would have booked it as soon as they could. However, due to Paul, the prisoners remained saving the life of that jailer. Having seen such people, having heard some of what they are talking about, having been convicted by God, he is basically asking what he needs to do to be saved like them. Did it happen right then. NO. Paul went and preached to him and his family.

That is another possibility, but consider that many were not affected by what the girl was saying. And then they ALL turned on them despite what the girl was saying. Did Paul cast out the demon because of the girl?No, but Acts 16:18 "But Paul was greatly annoyed..." That is what it took. Paul getting annoyed.

You are quick to add to God's word. You seem to believe that the people who seized Paul and Barnabbas were righteous, and that they actually cared about the young girl beyond the money she brought in. What did they say

"19 But when her masters saw that their hope of profit was suddenly gone [no mention of girl here], they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace before the authorities, 20 and when they had brought them to the chief magistrates, they said, “These men, Jews as they are, are causing our city trouble, 21 and they are proclaiming customs that are not lawful for us to accept or to practice, since we are Romans.”"

So the owners don't care the identity of Paul and Silas. They only care about the fact that their profit stream is now gone. So what did they do? They came up with the one thing that would rile up the leadership and people against Paul and Silas. They are proclaiming things to the people that are illegal, because they are Romans. *GASP!!* How dare they. You can see how much they cared for the little girl, and weren't in it all over simply money. Or you can see that they are so upset over the loss of profit that they didn't hold back in attacking Paul and Silas. What they proclaimed for Saul and Silas was high crime, perhaps worthy of death. That is how upset they were.

I believe that is one of the few if only ways the jailer heard, which would explain why Paul went with him later to his household and preached to them the gospel.

Regeneration comes first. Regeneration is not salvation, but the dead spirit, incapable of understanding the spiritual nature of the gospel is brought to life, and they are no longer simply "natural men", but now can understand the spiritual message in the gospel. With regeneration (or before?) comes conviction due to understanding. The jailer did not know the gospel, so Paul went with the jailer and preached to him and his household. And you are right, intelectual assent is not faith/belief.

And the jailer was saved because he was one of God's elect. He was predestined for that moment. If God is not in control, God is not the Creator. He would be, as some believe, some traveling being who came across Earth, and found some hominids, and presented Himself to them, and so our story begins.

So your God is clueless, and has to wait for some person's actions? Just what control do people have over God? Why do you believe people can thwart God? Has the created become higher than the Creator that they hold anything over Him? The question you MUST consider is... does God have the right to choose who HE wants to spend His eternity with... as Creator? Or, is He sitting on His throne in suspense, wondering just what is going on in His creation, and just who will choose Him, after He has already said that no one does?

That's something natural man would say, considering there is not one thing spiritual in that whole sentence. All natural. All material. Nothing spiritual.

You are the one who subscribes to total depravity. NOT I

And what I wrote is because IF total depravity is true.... then every wickedly wrong sinful person was created by the creator to be that way because if that is not so, how did those people get that way.

OH EXCUSE ME,,,,I keep forgetting that God predetermined you would be saved and exempted from such sins.
IOW...It would be that they were either created that way or by free will. (An idea you and other predestined believer find foreign)

But how does your predetermination fit in with the fact that the chosen of God were chosen long before a Gentile was given a chance to be grafted into that Olive tree.... and the fact that if you carefully read the bible, from the beginning Gentiles were not in the mix, it was God's chosen until too many of them were going their own way.
Keep reading

You said " SO, you are happy with possibly being wrong, and thus slandering God?" (God forbid)

Possibly being wrong? So you are not sure of that. I did not slander God, nor would I ever, but I am not the one who came up with that total depravity idea... that is not biblical.... but those who believe it are because I also did not define the meaning of what it is.
Did you know what WIKI says about this?
Total depravity (also called radical corruption<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_depravity#cite_note-1"><span>[</span>1<span>]</span></a> or pervasive depravity) is a Protestant theological doctrine derived from the concept of original sin. It teaches that, as a consequence of the Fall, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin as a result of their fallen nature and, apart from the efficacious (irresistible) or prevenient (enabling) grace of God, is completely unable to choose by themselves to follow God, refrain from evil, or accept the gift of salvation as it is offered.

You also said! You should consider Paul's take on the clay and the potter, specifically the part where it asks who are you, oh man, to talk back at your Creator? If you want to understand the missing depth of what you said, and about God... so what if God made us that way? What standing do you have to say anything back at God? Who are you to judge God?

I never talked back to Him. I am giving you a dictionery definition of the total depravity you believe in and believe the creator has done. And ask you, if he did not.... then how did mankind get it?
It would have to be built into you as it is nothing that can be learned.

Also John Calvin taught Total Depravity which is the key doctrine in his theological system. He taught that as a result of original sin, every person is enslaved to sin and unable to choose to follow God without divine grace.

Which goes back to the people the creator made.

I do not buy it. My Heavenly Father is a strict but loving spirit. If He was not He never would have sent Jesus who
cures some of what you would call totally depraved. Sent demons from some that you would call depraved, Nor would he have interacted with them.

Nor would Jesus have been sent only to the lost sheep of Israel... which, BTW, if they were predetermined, how did they get lost.
Nor would Jesus have told the 12 in Matt 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: “Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans;

Nor would Paul have needed to explain about the Olive Tree in Romans 11 where he explains about

​ ​ A Remnant Chosen by Grace 1I ask then, did God reject His people? Certainly not! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject His people, whom He foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says about Elijah, how he appealed to God against Israel: 3“Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars. I am the only one left, and they are seeking my life as well”a? 4And what was the divine reply to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”b 5In the same way, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.c 7What then? What Israel was seeking, it failed to obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8as it is written: “God gave them a spirit of stupor,​ eyes that could not see,​ and ears that could not hear,​ to this very day.”d​ 9And David says: “May their table become a snare and a trap,​ a stumbling block and a retribution to them.​ ​ 10May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,​ and their backs be bent forever.”e​ The Ingrafting of the Gentiles 11I ask then, did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery?f Certainly not! However, because of their trespass, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel jealous. Now I will pause for a moment and ask you if you understand the importance of verse 11 and do you even know what it means and what it indicates? 12But if their trespass means riches for the world, and their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring! 13I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14in the hope that I may provoke my own people to jealousy and save some of them. Another pause to ask if the Chosen were predetermined, then why the continued need to same some. Do you understand the statement hope that I may provoke my own people to jealousy and save some of them. ? 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the first part of the dough is holy, so is the whole batch; if the root is holy, so are the branches. NOTE: This is referring to the jews of israel. god's forever, chosen. 17Now if some branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others to share in the nourishment of the olive root, NOTE: This is referring to those who either were not on board from the beginning or who back slid. 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, remember this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. Note: The Gentiles are now grafted into the Olive Tree. 19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20That is correct: They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. NOTE: Here is the proof that we were not predestined, but by faith we were grafted in. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will certainly notg spare you either. 22Take notice, therefore, of the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who fell, but kindness to you, if you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. NOTE: Proof, there is NO OSAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. Note; And if they do not persist in unbelief, MEANING they can change their minds yet again and they will be grafted in....... again. Sure sounds like Free Will . 24For if you were cut from a wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted into one that is cultivated, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree! All Israel Will Be Saved 25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion;​ He will remove godlessness from Jacob.​ ​ 27And this is My covenant with them​ when I take away their sins.”h​ 28Regarding the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but regarding election, they are loved on account of the patriarchs. 29For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their disobedience, NOTE: Again, Free Will is seen. 31so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you. 32For God has consigned everyone to disobedience so that He may have mercy on everyone.​

​

 

[armylngst]

You are the one who subscribes to total depravity. NOT I

Which is your problem. Apparently you do not believe that sin has so corrupted mankind that Jesus was speaking truth to power when He said "With man it is impossible", and that God said no one seeks after God, because each has gone their own way.

And what I wrote is because IF total depravity is true.... then every wickedly wrong sinful person was created by the creator to be that way because if that is not so, how did those people get that way.

That is completely irrational, because this means you are assuming a definition of God, while who God is does not fit your argument at all. Faulty premise, means unsound conclusion, and irrational thought. People got that way because Adam SINNED.

OH EXCUSE ME,,,,I keep forgetting that God predetermined you would be saved and exempted from such sins.

What part of, it doesn't matter what you believe that doesn't give you the right to blaspheme God do you not understand?

IOW...It would be that they were either created that way or by free will. (An idea you and other predestined believer find foreign)

If we have free will as you appear to define it, then we cannot have been created by God.

But how does your predetermination fit in with the fact that the chosen of God were chosen long before a Gentile was given a chance to be grafted into that Olive tree.... and the fact that if you carefully read the bible, from the beginning Gentiles were not in the mix, it was God's chosen until too many of them were going their own way.

Well, apparently where we split ways is my belief that God is eternal, and time doesn't mean anything to who God is and what God has done, is doing, and will do... all at the same time.

Keep reading

You said " SO, you are happy with possibly being wrong, and thus slandering God?" (God forbid)

Then you need to check your argument. That's the point of the statement. Check your argument. The whole reason it says you would slander God is because you keep dragging God into, well if I'm wrong then look at what you do to God. Not me, but you for dragging Him in where you end up slandering Him if you are wrong.

Possibly being wrong? So you are not sure of that. I did not slander God, nor would I ever, but I am not the one who came up with that total depravity idea... that is not biblical.... but those who believe it are because I also did not define the meaning of what it is.

No, it is something for you to figure out. Obviously I can swear up and down that you are wrong, but that doens't mean anything.

Did you know what WIKI says about this?
Total depravity (also called radical corruption<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_depravity#cite_note-1"><span>[</span>1<span>]</span></a> or pervasive depravity) is a Protestant theological doctrine derived from the concept of original sin. It teaches that, as a consequence of the Fall, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin as a result of their fallen nature and, apart from the efficacious (irresistible) or prevenient (enabling) grace of God, is completely unable to choose by themselves to follow God, refrain from evil, or accept the gift of salvation as it is offered.

Why did God waste His time writing through Paul that we are slaves of sin, if God didn't mean it? SLAVES. The lowest on the totem pole. No power, no free will to be anything other than a slave, etc. Why would God do that? And, He used slaves for a purpose. There are only two ways for a slave to be freed from their master/slavery? Someone else buys them and they become their slave instead, or someone (other than themselves) sets them free. That's it. Notice how Onesimus, even with Paul, never ceased to be a slave of Philemon. Paul did speak of Philemon perhaps releaseing Onesimus, but even though Onesimus ran away, even Paul understood that he was still Philemon's slave, and that he could rightly be held accountable by Philemon.

You also said! You should consider Paul's take on the clay and the potter, specifically the part where it asks who are you, oh man, to talk back at your Creator? If you want to understand the missing depth of what you said, and about God... so what if God made us that way? What standing do you have to say anything back at God? Who are you to judge God?

I never talked back to Him. I am giving you a dictionery definition of the total depravity you believe in and believe the creator has done. And ask you, if he did not.... then how did mankind get it?
It would have to be built into you as it is nothing that can be learned.

I already gave you what Total Depravity is. Man is so corrupted in nature by sin, that every part of their heart, body, and mind is affected to the point that man is slave to sin. Man has no ability (hence total depravity is also known as total inability) to save themselves in any way shape or form, without the intervention of God. To say this is not so is to be on the complete opposite side of Christ when He answered the disciples question "Then who can be saved?"

Also John Calvin taught Total Depravity which is the key doctrine in his theological system. He taught that as a result of original sin, every person is enslaved to sin and unable to choose to follow God without divine grace.

You should read what he had to say on Total Depravity. You should also look and see how he preached.

Which goes back to the people the creator made.

I do not buy it. My Heavenly Father is a strict but loving spirit. If He was not He never would have sent Jesus who
cures some of what you would call totally depraved. Sent demons from some that you would call depraved, Nor would he have interacted with them.

When Satan asked God for permission to destroy Job's life, because Satan had no right to do anything to Job, God said sure. How does that fit your understanding of loving?

Nor would Jesus have been sent only to the lost sheep of Israel... which, BTW, if they were predetermined, how did they get lost.

So, at least you come out and tell us where the foundation of your problem is. A failure to understand the difference between temporal and eternal, time and eternity. They are not the same.

Nor would Jesus have told the 12 in Matt 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: “Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans;

Why not? I mean, Jesus dealt with a Gentile, and He entered the city of the Samaritans. So why did He tell them not to?

Nor would Paul have needed to explain about the Olive Tree in Romans 11 where he explains about

​ A Remnant Chosen by Grace 1I ask then, did God reject His people? Certainly not! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject His people, whom He foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says about Elijah, how he appealed to God against Israel: 3“Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars. I am the only one left, and they are seeking my life as well”a? 4And what was the divine reply to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.”b 5In the same way, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.c 7What then? What Israel was seeking, it failed to obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8as it is written:​ “God gave them a spirit of stupor,​ eyes that could not see,​ and ears that could not hear,​ to this very day.”d​ 9And David says:​ “May their table become a snare and a trap,​ a stumbling block and a retribution to them.​ ​ 10May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,​ and their backs be bent forever.”e​ The Ingrafting of the Gentiles 11I ask then, did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery?f Certainly not! However, because of their trespass, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel jealous. Now I will pause for a moment and ask you if you understand the importance of verse 11 and do you even know what it means and what it indicates? 12But if their trespass means riches for the world, and their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring! 13I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14in the hope that I may provoke my own people to jealousy and save some of them. Another pause to ask if the Chosen were predetermined, then why the continued need to same some. Do you understand the statement hope that I may provoke my own people to jealousy and save some of them. ? 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the first part of the dough is holy, so is the whole batch; if the root is holy, so are the branches. NOTE: This is referring to the jews of israel. god's forever, chosen. 17Now if some branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others to share in the nourishment of the olive root, NOTE: This is referring to those who either were not on board from the beginning or who back slid. 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, remember this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. Note: The Gentiles are now grafted into the Olive Tree. 19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20That is correct: They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. NOTE: Here is the proof that we were not predestined, but by faith we were grafted in. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will certainly notg spare you either. 22Take notice, therefore, of the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who fell, but kindness to you, if you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. NOTE: Proof, there is NO OSAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. Note; And if they do not persist in unbelief, MEANING they can change their minds yet again and they will be grafted in....... again. Sure sounds like Free Will . 24For if you were cut from a wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted into one that is cultivated, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree! All Israel Will Be Saved 25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:​ “The Deliverer will come from Zion;​ He will remove godlessness from Jacob.​ ​ 27And this is My covenant with them​ when I take away their sins.”h​ 28Regarding the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but regarding election, they are loved on account of the patriarchs. 29For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their disobedience, NOTE: Again, Free Will is seen. 31so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you. 32For God has consigned everyone to disobedience so that He may have mercy on everyone.​

​

Do note the free will is seen verses has nothing to do with free will. God shows mercy. Free will has nothing to do with it. If God's gift and His call are irrevocable, and the gift is salvation, can we revoke it? How about using free will? If we can, then it is no longer irrevocable is it. And it is God's call that is irrevocable, so we again see that AW Pink's take is actually accurate. It is because it is God how is giving the gift, and making the call of which those (gift and call) are irrevocable. Why? It doesn't matter how we consider ourselves, it matters how God considers us. We are not greater than God. Notice that word consigned. Just what does that word mean?
Consign -- assign; commit decisively or permanently. So God committed everyone decisively to disobedience. Consider that in light again of God's sovereignty. And why did God commit everyone decisively to disobedience? So that He can have mercy on everyone. However, that everyone is not without exception, but without distinction. Universalism is a lie. It makes everyone with exception AVAILABLE for mercy, but, as God clearly states elsewhere, He will have mercy upon whom HE wills to have mercy, and He will harden whom HE wishes to harden.

 

[Dizerner]

Adam is why we are all born sinful.

God still restores our real free will choice.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Adam is why we are all born sinful.

God still restores our real free will choice.

in adam all die. even so in christ shall all be made alive.

but they will not force you to be in Christ

 

[FreeInChrist]

Which is your problem. Apparently you do not believe that sin has so corrupted mankind that Jesus was speaking truth to power when He said "With man it is impossible", and that God said no one seeks after God, because each has gone their own way.

That is completely irrational, because this means you are assuming a definition of God, while who God is does not fit your argument at all. Faulty premise, means unsound conclusion, and irrational thought. People got that way because Adam SINNED.

Why did Adam have to sin?

What part of, it doesn't matter what you believe that doesn't give you the right to blaspheme God do you not understand?

I never did. But I believe you have flirted with it.

If we have free will as you appear to define it, then we cannot have been created by God.

Those are your words not mine. You assume that God cannot create something that thinks. That is your assumption.

Well, apparently where we split ways is my belief that God is eternal, and time doesn't mean anything to who God is and what God has done, is doing, and will do... all at the same time.

What does that have to do with whether or not God predestined you or gave me free will?

Then you need to check your argument. That's the point of the statement. Check your argument. The whole reason it says you would slander God is because you keep dragging God into, well if I'm wrong then look at what you do to God. Not me, but you for dragging Him in where you end up slandering Him if you are wrong.

If man is so sinfully dirty then how did he get that way. He was born that way, right? Then you explain it.

No, it is something for you to figure out. Obviously I can swear up and down that you are wrong, but that doens't mean anything.

Why did God waste His time writing through Paul that we are slaves of sin, if God didn't mean it? SLAVES. The lowest on the totem pole. No power, no free will to be anything other than a slave, etc. Why would God do that? And, He used slaves for a purpose. There are only two ways for a slave to be freed from their master/slavery? Someone else buys them and they become their slave instead, or someone (other than themselves) sets them free. That's it. Notice how Onesimus, even with Paul, never ceased to be a slave of Philemon. Paul did speak of Philemon perhaps releaseing Onesimus, but even though Onesimus ran away, even Paul understood that he was still Philemon's slave, and that he could rightly be held accountable by Philemon.

I already gave you what Total Depravity is. Man is so corrupted in nature by sin, that every part of their heart, body, and mind is affected to the point that man is slave to sin. Man has no ability (hence total depravity is also known as total inability) to save themselves in any way shape or form, without the intervention of God. To say this is not so is to be on the complete opposite side of Christ when He answered the disciples question "Then who can be saved?"

You should read what he had to say on Total Depravity. You should also look and see how he preached.

When Satan asked God for permission to destroy Job's life, because Satan had no right to do anything to Job, God said sure. How does that fit your understanding of loving?

So, at least you come out and tell us where the foundation of your problem is. A failure to understand the difference between temporal and eternal, time and eternity. They are not the same.

Why not? I mean, Jesus dealt with a Gentile, and He entered the city of the Samaritans. So why did He tell them not to?

Do note the free will is seen verses has nothing to do with free will. God shows mercy. Free will has nothing to do with it. If God's gift and His call are irrevocable, and the gift is salvation, can we revoke it? How about using free will? If we can, then it is no longer irrevocable is it. And it is God's call that is irrevocable, so we again see that AW Pink's take is actually accurate. It is because it is God how is giving the gift, and making the call of which those (gift and call) are irrevocable. Why? It doesn't matter how we consider ourselves, it matters how God considers us. We are not greater than God. Notice that word consigned. Just what does that word mean?
Consign -- assign; commit decisively or permanently. So God committed everyone decisively to disobedience. Consider that in light again of God's sovereignty. And why did God commit everyone decisively to disobedience? So that He can have mercy on everyone. However, that everyone is not without exception, but without distinction. Universalism is a lie. It makes everyone with exception AVAILABLE for mercy, but, as God clearly states elsewhere, He will have mercy upon whom HE wills to have mercy, and He will harden whom HE wishes to harden.

I did not blaspheme God at all.

I did say based on your beliefs that God would have had to do certain not good things.

If you had read enough of me on here on the forum you would answer this statement of yours for yourself. All others, know where I stand.

You said ......."So, at least you come out and tell us where the foundation of your problem is."

I do not have a problem. Your problem is you do not respect me enough to allow me to disagree with you with out putting me on the yellow brick road to wherever.

Now listen, and listen well.

I used to be a card carrying member of the preordained mindset. All of us Presbyterians had it infused into us from the moment of our John Calvin encouraged baby baptisms. Just as soon as we could understand things being said.

I could go into great depths of that, but I will spare others having to read what they already know about me.

But I will say that while they never taught OSAS there was a comfortable expectancy among the members that everyone was "heaven bound"

Even with my employer at the time who was a pathological liar and would freely admit he loved creating stories when the truth would have served him better.

And that employer had wandering hands with at least one of his employees that I knew about.

But he was certain beyond understanding, at least to me that he was heaven bound.

Point #2. I expect you to say you are not a Calvinist. I have yet to meet anyone who admits they follow him, even though it was from his writing that the West Minster Confession was written about 100 years after his death.

But he said one thing that was copied into the Westminster Confession which you can read at

Westminster Confession of Faith - Chapter 3

Chapter 3, paragraph 3 III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death.
(ref. 1 Tim. 5:21; Matt. 25:41. Rom. 9:22,23; Eph. 1:5,6; Prov. 16:4).

paragraph 4 IV. These angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
(ref. 2 Tim. 2:19; John 13:18.)

Allow me to interrupt here for a moment....... and ask you what you think "are particularly and unchangeably designed;" means?

paragraph VII. The rest of mankind, God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will, whereby he extendeth or withholdeth mercy as he pleaseth, for the glory of his sovereign power over his creatures, to pass by, and to ordain them to dishonour and wrath for their sin, to the praise of his glorious justice.
(ref. Matt. 11:25,26; Rom. 9:17,18,21,22; 2 Tim. 2:19,20; Jude ver. 4; 1 Pet. 2:8.)

Now enter John Calvin. The one who started this. If you want to read all about his beliefs https://www.theologian-theology.com/theologians/john-calvin-predestination/

Predestination According to Calvin​

According to John Calvin, predestination is God’s unchangeable decree from before the creation of the world that he would freely save some people (the elect), foreordaining them to eternal life, while the others (the reprobate) would be “barred from access to” salvation and sentenced to “eternal death (180, 184).” Calvin was careful to distinguish the predestination of individuals from the corporate election of nations such as Israel (185). He argued that an explanation of predestination is only complete when it includes the election of individuals (187).

Question. Why do you suppose that as the predestined people that were picked before the creation of the world did not include God's first? I just wonder.

So there you have it..... my main reasons for going the free will route.

And if you answer my questions, then we can be done with one another.....