Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[armylngst]

You seem way off track to me. Do you even understand what I stated ?

That salvation isn't the gift, or that faith isn't the gift?

 

[civic]

Di

No I am not. I am reasoning, just as God says in the Old Testament. Come let us reason together. All this fight from you simply because I said that faith is not THE gift, that SALVATION is the gift of God, as though I should believe that we get to heaven by faith without salvation.

Ditto

 

[synergy]

The faith vs. works debate often comes up on Cristian forums. There are many who say that a person is saved based on some mixture of faith and works. Biblical Christianity teaches salvation by faith in Jesus Christ, apart from any works we do.

and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, Romans 3:24

You do not work for a gift or to keep a gift.

Welcome @Neil Spargo to this Forum where we have people from many Christian backgrounds and denominations, and everyones' beliefs are challenged daily.

First of all, don't you ever wonder why the only Faith Only verse in the entire Bible actually obliterates the Faith Only belief? See James 2:24.

James 2:24-26:
24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Second of all, Paul associates good works with eternal life. See Rom 2:7.

Rom 2:6-8:
6 who will repay everyone according to his works:
7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.

Third of all, be careful not to conflate works of the Law with good works. Our ancestors gave up the works of Law practice 2000 years ago.

Fourth of all, receiving a gift still needs actions on our part. We have to acknowledge it, unwrap it, make use of it, take care of it, etc... The same way there are actions required of our salvation like repenting, trusting, and believing. Monergism is false. In other words, God does not repent for you, you do.

 

[mailmandan]

Always with the descriptive notion.

Jesus didn't speak about descriptive anything
Jesus taught HOW we are to be saved and He NEVER said to ONLY believe in Him.

It would not have taken years for Him to teach the Apostles if it were that simple.

Jesus gave COMMANDS that He EXPECTS us to follow.

Jesus said IF YOU LOVE ME YOU WILL OBEY MY COMMANDMENTS.

Which commandments would those be??
According to you, there are none.

Still struggling with descriptive passages of scripture I see. Keep (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments

Strong's Greek: 5083. τηρέω (téreó) -- To keep, to guard, to observe, to watch over

This is the demonstrative evidence of our love for Jesus but is not the basis or means by which we obtain salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)

1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (already know Him/already saved/demonstrative evidence) if we "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over) His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

This does not mean flawlessly obey the 10 commandments under the old covenant of law. His commandments are mentioned throughout scripture.

 

[brightfame52]

That salvation isn't the gift, or that faith isn't the gift?

Both are a Gift, not of ourselves

 

[mailmandan]

Our works do nothing to earn or maintain salvation. It was the once-for-all sacrifice of Christ that justifies sinners (Romans 3:24). “Know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, . . . because by the works of the law no one will be justified” (Galatians 2:16). We begin by faith, and we continue in faith: “Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?” (Galatians 3:2–3).

• Salvation is by grace, which precludes works. Grace is, by definition, unearned, and Scripture makes it clear that God’s grace in salvation destroys the argument for human effort: “If by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace” (Romans 11:6). “It is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast” (Ephesians 2:8–9).

• God’s requirement for salvation is faith in His Son. One of the grand themes of the Bible is that we are justified, or declared righteous, by faith (Genesis 15:6). Faith is the only means of making sinful human beings able to stand before a holy God. No amount of law-keeping or good works can accomplish it (Titus 3:5). If our works could save us, then Christ died for nothing (Galatians 2:21). Got?

Amen and well said!

 

[GodsGrace]

Still struggling with descriptive passages of scripture I see. Keep (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments

Strong's Greek: 5083. τηρέω (téreó) -- To keep, to guard, to observe, to watch over

This is the demonstrative evidence of our love for Jesus but is not the basis or means by which we obtain salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)

1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (already know Him/already saved/demonstrative evidence) if we "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over) His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

This does not mean flawlessly obey the 10 commandments under the old covenant of law. His commandments are mentioned throughout scripture.

You know someone who FLAWLESSLY keeps the 10 commandments and all the OTHER commandments God gave to us in the Person of Jesus??

What a strawman!

§And your greek understanding of the word KEEP is a joke.
When JESUS said we are TO KEEP His commandments....
HE meant obey them.

Just like He said that we are to obey His word.

Let's compare:

Luke 6:46​

“Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?

Luke 11:28​

But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”

 

[Bronson]

I like this one.

You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. Matt. 5:38-40

Here's a more detailed look at what Jesus tells us to do:

Biblical Origin:
The phrase comes from Jesus' Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5:39, where he says, "But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also".

Beyond Passivity:
It's not about being a doormat or enduring abuse. Some interpretations suggest it's about strategically disarming the aggressor through non-retaliation and demonstrating a commitment to peace.

Counter-Cultural Act:
In the context of the time, a slap on the right cheek was often a public insult and humiliation. Turning the other cheek was a bold, nonviolent way to refuse to accept that insult and to assert one's dignity.

Not Just Physical Violence:
The concept extends beyond physical violence to include resisting evil in various forms, such as refusing to be drawn into arguments or resisting manipulative behavior.

Forgiveness and Love:
Ultimately, turning the other cheek is linked to forgiveness, love for enemies, and a commitment to overcoming evil with good.

Possible Interpretations:
Some scholars suggest it might also be interpreted as a call for peaceful resistance against oppression

 

[GodsGrace]

Still struggling with descriptive passages of scripture I see. Keep (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments

Strong's Greek: 5083. τηρέω (téreó) -- To keep, to guard, to observe, to watch over

This is the demonstrative evidence of our love for Jesus but is not the basis or means by which we obtain salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)

1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (already know Him/already saved/demonstrative evidence) if we "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over) His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep (guard, observe, watch over) His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

This does not mean flawlessly obey the 10 commandments under the old covenant of law. His commandments are mentioned throughout scripture.

Maybe we could erase the following verses from our bibles??

Matthew 5:16​

In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.


Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.


James 2:14-17
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.


Colossians 3:23-24
Whatever you do, work heartily, as for the Lord and not for men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward. You are serving the Lord Christ.


Hebrews 13.16
Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have, for such sacrifices are pleasing to God.


Galatians 6:9
And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up.


Titus 2:14
Who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.


1 Timothy 6:17-19
As for the rich in this present age, charge them not to be haughty, nor to set their hopes on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly provides us with everything to enjoy. They are to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share, thus storing up treasure for themselves as a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is truly life.


1 Corinthians 16:14
Let all that you do be done in love.



Hebrews 6:10
For God is not unjust so as to overlook your work and the love that you have shown for his name in serving the saints, as you still do.


Romans 2:6
He will render to each one according to his works:


2 Cor 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.


Matthew 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’


Titus 1:16
They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.


2 Timothy 3.17
That the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.


Titus 3.8
The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people.


Hebrews 10:24
And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works,

 

[Bronson]

Maybe we could erase the following verses from our bibles??

Or try this.

Context is King: Always interpret a verse within its context to avoid misinterpretations. The Bible Interprets the Bible: Use other scriptures to clarify the meaning of a particular verse.

Seek the Author's Intended Meaning: Strive to understand what the original author intended to convey to their audience.

Be Humble and Open to Learning: Recognize that understanding scripture can be a lifelong journey so don't be a know it all.

 

[mailmandan]

You know someone who FLAWLESSLY keeps the 10 commandments and all the OTHER commandments God gave to us in the Person of Jesus??

Only Jesus.

What a strawman!

Not according strawman. Simply clarifying.

§And your greek understanding of the word KEEP is a joke.

Works-righteousness is a joke. You disagree with the Greek understanding from the source I cited?

When JESUS said we are TO KEEP His commandments....
HE meant obey them.

Obeying is involved in keeping. Just not sinless, perfect obedience which only Jesus Christ accomplished.

Just like He said that we are to obey His word.

Let's compare:

Luke 6:46​

“Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?

Descriptive of genuine believers.

Luke 11:28​

But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”

Keep and not flawlessly obey. If we don't believe in Jesus for salvation (John 6:40) then attempted obedience is legalistic. (Matthew 7:21-23)

 

[GodsGrace]

Or try this.

Context is King: Always interpret a verse within its context to avoid misinterpretations. The Bible Interprets the Bible: Use other scriptures to clarify the meaning of a particular verse.

Seek the Author's Intended Meaning: Strive to understand what the original author intended to convey to their audience.

Be Humble and Open to Learning: Recognize that understanding scripture can be a lifelong journey so don't be a know it all.

Context.

OK.

So pick 2 verses of the ones I've posted and then give me the context.

 

[Bronson]

Context.

OK.

So pick 2 verses of the ones I've posted and then give me the context.

That's your job. And try the last line of my post.

Be Humble and Open to Learning: Recognize that understanding scripture can be a lifelong journey so don't be a know it all.

 

[GodsGrace]

Only Jesus.

Only Jesus was perfect.
So why do y ou keep bringing up the fact that no one is perfect?
Do you think some of us here believe we're perfect?

Not according strawman. Simply clarifying.

Works-righteousness is a joke. You disagree with the Greek understanding from the source I cited?

I disagree with YOUR interpretation and the fact that you're always trying to use the greek language to make up for the very simple truth in the verses that involve obedience and good works being necessary.

The strawman is that you're always stating that faith alone saves.
So who states otherwise?
No Christian I know.

But Obedience is necessary...
and this involves good works if we're to learn from Jesus, Paul and every other writer of the NT.

Obeying is involved in keeping. Just not sinless, perfect obedience which only Jesus Christ accomplished.

There you go again.
Strawman.
Who's speaking about perfectiion?
You're obsessed with sin and sinning.

I never even MENTION the word sin.

I believe it's the word OBEDIENCE that scares you and others.

But, alas, Jesus does want obedience from us.
Is He God or not?
Does God want obedience or not?

Descriptive of genuine believers.

JESUS makes the rules....
not you.

Jesus wants obedience.
I never read the word DESCRIPTIVE in the NT....
only what Jesus expects from His believers.

Keep and not flawlessly obey. If we don't believe in Jesus for salvation (John 6:40) then attempted obedience is legalistic. (Matthew 7:21-23)

There you go again with the flawless.
You really are afraid of your flaws.
Don't you trust Jesus for your salvation??

And attempted obedience is legalism?!

Another great statement from you.
Why even attempt obedience????!!!!
It's legalism !!

Your belief system brings to statements such as this.....
which is what I've been saying all along.

Your belief system brings you to making statements that are opposed to what Jesus taught.

 

[GodsGrace]

That's your job. And try the last line of my post.

YOU brought up context.

If you're unable to do what you speak of...
then don't speak it.

Your last line, and any other personal statement, is irrelevant to this thread and to me.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Huh? Rom 4 is full of references to the Law. Sounds like you never read Rom 4! Here are just 4 verses from Rom 4 with many references to the Law.

13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect,
15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all.

See how you missed it..

Abraham was before the law. It is therefore by grace so that the promise may be given to those who are under the law. And those who are not

Its not talking about works of the law..

Abraham, David, Sarah were mentioned without any introduction! That means that there were knowledgeable people there, Jews. Stop embrassing yourself.

So what? We all know nobody's perfect.

As for you, you continue to disregard James 2:24. You refuse to submit to an eye test of James 2:24. Here it is again, one more chance to redeem yourself:

24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Abel's good works were not "fig leaves". He definitely understood the plan of justification which is by faith and by preordained good works. (Rom 2:7, James 2:14-26). How can you possibly be saved without being justified?

Also, you ran away from the fact that Rahab's justifying good works were NOT viewed as "filthy rags" by God according to James 2:25. It's back to your drawing board for you.

Yawn

Dude, I am about done with your nonsense

You want to earn your salvation. Feel free

Count me out

Iwas trained by the law. And know I cant live up. Not only to the laws standard But Gods standard.

You want to boast in self. Feel free.

Good day

 

[Bronson]

YOU brought up context.

If you're unable to do what you speak of...
then don't speak it.

Your last line, and any other personal statement, is irrelevant to this thread and to me.

Why would I give the context for your proof texts.

Proof-texting is the practice of using isolated verses from a text, particularly the Bible, to support a particular viewpoint or argument without considering the broader context or the original author's intent.

It's often criticized as a misleading or inaccurate method of interpretation, potentially leading to misinterpretations and false conclusions

You make personal statements a lot.

 

[mailmandan]

Only Jesus was perfect.

Amen! (2 Corinthians 5:21; Hebrews 4:15; 1 Peter 2:2)

So why do y ou keep bringing up the fact that no one is perfect?

Because you keep pointing to obedience/works as the means of receiving salvation and that would take sinless, perfect obedience but you seem confident with imperfect obedience and refuse to trust in Jesus Christ alone for salvation.

Do you think some of us here believe we're perfect?

No, but some of you here seem to imply that your obedience/works is what saves you. So, how much imperfect obedience does it take?

I disagree with YOUR interpretation and the fact that you're always trying to use the greek language to make up for the very simple truth in the verses that involve obedience and good works being necessary.

Good works are not the basis or means by which we receive salvation. Christ is also not an IN-sufficient Savior. (Romans 3:24-26; 4:5-6; 5:1-2)

The strawman is that you're always stating that faith alone saves.
So who states otherwise?
No Christian I know.

You and others here have already stated otherwise by saying that we are saved by faith AND WORKS which is not salvation by faith alone. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

But Obedience is necessary...
and this involves good works if we're to learn from Jesus, Paul and every other writer of the NT.

So, how much obedience does it take? How many good works must you accomplish before the Lord can finally save you? How much is enough?

There you go again.
Strawman.
Who's speaking about perfectiion?
You're obsessed with sin and sinning.

I think that is your obsession. Along with imperfect obedience.

I never even MENTION the word sin.

The Bible mentions it several times. See Romans 3:23 and Romans 6:23 for starters.

I believe it's the word OBEDIENCE that scares you and others.

That is your favorite strawman argument. Accusing believers who do not promote salvation by works/works righteousness of discarding obedience as meaningless which could not be further from the truth. You seem to have a "holier than thou" attitude.

But, alas, Jesus does want obedience from us.
Is He God or not?
Does God want obedience or not?

Of course the Lord wants genuine obedience with the right motives and for the right reasons. He does not want legalism. (Matthew 7:22-23; Luke 18:9-14)

JESUS makes the rules....
not you.

Not you either. Jesus speaks for Himself about the rules.

Jesus wants obedience.
I never read the word DESCRIPTIVE in the NT....
only what Jesus expects from His believers.

You just don't get it. Works-righteousness is all you understand.

There you go again with the flawless.
You really are afraid of your flaws.
Don't you trust Jesus for your salvation??

I trust in Jesus and not in myself.

And attempted obedience is legalism?!

Attempted obedience with the expectations of receiving eternal life based on the merits of our works is legalism. (Matthew 7:22-23; Luke 18:9-14)

Another great statement from you.
Why even attempt obedience????!!!!
It's legalism !!

Strawman argument. It's impossible to have a serious discussion with you.

Your belief system brings to statements such as this.....
which is what I've been saying all along.

Your belief system brings you to making statements that are opposed to what Jesus taught.

That's your opinion and you are not my judge. I answer to Jesus and not you.

 

[GodsGrace]

Amen! (2 Corinthians 5:21; Hebrews 4:15; 1 Peter 2:2)

Because you keep pointing to obedience/works as the means of receiving salvation and that would take sinless, perfect obedience but you seem confident with imperfect obedience and refuse to trust in Jesus Christ alone for salvation.

No, but some of you here seem to imply that your obedience/works is what saves you. So, how much imperfect obedience does it take?

Good works are not the basis or means by which we receive salvation. Christ is also not an IN-sufficient Savior. (Romans 3:24-26; 4:5-6; 5:1-2)

You and others here have already stated otherwise by saying that we are saved by faith AND WORKS which is not salvation by faith alone. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

So, how much obedience does it take? How many good works must you accomplish before the Lord can finally save you? How much is enough?

I think that is your obsession. Along with imperfect obedience.

The Bible mentions it several times. See Romans 3:23 and Romans 6:23 for starters.

That is your favorite strawman argument. Accusing believers who do not promote salvation by works/works righteousness of discarding obedience as meaningless which could not be further from the truth. You seem to have a "holier than thou" attitude.

Of course the Lord wants genuine obedience with the right motives and for the right reasons. He does not want legalism. (Matthew 7:22-23; Luke 18:9-14)

Not you either. Jesus speaks for Himself about the rules.

You just don't get it. Works-righteousness is all you understand.

I trust in Jesus and not in myself.

Attempted obedience with the expectations of receiving eternal life based on the merits of our works is legalism. (Matthew 7:22-23; Luke 18:9-14)

Strawman argument. It's impossible to have a serious discussion with you.

That's your opinion and you are not my judge. I answer to Jesus and not you.

Here is the reply to the above in a nutshell....
A reply that you deny even though many, many verses prove you to be incorrect in your belief system.


We are saved BY FAITH ALONE.
No amount of works can save us because it is our faith that saves us.
A person can do all the good works they can...IF they DO NOT believe in God they cannot be saved.

Hebrews 11:6
6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.



Now here comes the part you do NOT like....

AFTER we are saved we are required to obey God.
Those that are not saved do not need to obey God.
They are already lost and a person cannot be more lost than lost.

WE as God believers must obey God.

In order to obey God we must do what Jesus instructed us to do.

Jesus instructed us to do GOOD WORKS.
THIS is what He preached for over 3 years with the Apostles.

Jesus preached good behavior.
Jesus wants HIS Kingdom on earth to be a meter for a better life here.
He taught that our BEHAVIOR must change.

That includes doing good works and behaving differently than non-believers.

THIS is what JESUS taught.

 

[GodsGrace]

Why would I give the context for your proof texts.

Here's why Bronson:

I posted verses supporting my statement that it's necessary for believers to obey God.

YOU stated that my verses were out of context with the rest of the particular chapter.
In this case it is YOU that must show me WHY I'm incorrect in believing that my verses are out of context...
since I clearly believe that they are.

THIS is how it works Bronson.
Not my responsibility if you do not understand how a debate works.

Proof-texting is the practice of using isolated verses from a text, particularly the Bible, to support a particular viewpoint or argument without considering the broader context or the original author's intent.

It's often criticized as a misleading or inaccurate method of interpretation, potentially leading to misinterpretations and false conclusions

How do YOU prove what you believe is correct?
Could YOU post something, as you believe fit, to show that good works are not necessary for salvation?
Please show me how it's done.
Thanks.