Excellent Discussion on OSAS

I have answered that same broken record question for 3 years now, maybe more.

Then answer the question ?


You don’t seem to grasp the concept that your supposed pre-gospel salvation is a Christ-less salvation in which hearing and believing the gospel is not required.


Your “gospel” is what scripture calls the lie.

Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. Genesis 3:4


Go ahead and sin you won’t die. OSAS
 
well in his personal and unbiblical theology it was before creation but most calvinists do not believe such nonsense. I know I never did as a calvinist.

This is true, most Calvinist’s don’t believe that.

His is a Christ-less salvation that doesn’t require hearing and believing the Gospel message of Jesus Christ.
 
1. "in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come" (Heb 6:4-5)

It is very clear that this is speaking of those who are in the Church, saved, part of the body of Christ. Because all who are "partakers of the Holy Spirit" (the indwelling Spirit) are part of the Church. And you cannot taste the power of the age to come if you are not part of the Church.

So then, these who were in the Church and have fallen away, "For it is impossible, ... and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance..." (Heb 6:4, 6) cannot be restored to the Church. Notice that they cannot be "RESTORED". You cannot speak of "restoring" something that wasn't once there to begin with.

2. "My brothers and sisters, if anyone among you strays from the truth and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that the one who has turned a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and cover a multitude of sins." (James 5:19-20)

Here again we see that anyone among us (part of the family/body of Christ) who falls away (becomes a sinner again) and is turned back (can't be turned back if they weren't first going along with us) will be saved from death (eternal death in Hell).

Both of these passages show clearly that these people were saved, were part of the body of Christ, were born again; but they fell away into unrepentant sin and were lost again.
Ref:- Reply#26 (Page 2) & Hebrews 6:4-5 & James 5:19-20

Hello @Doug Brents,

You have failed to rightly divide the word of truth by not taking note of to whom the word within the references you have quoted refer. You have said that they were part of 'The Body of Christ', when, at the time of writing, the church which is body of Christ was not made known: The revelation of God to the Apostle Paul concerning it having not yet been revealed. (See Eph. Phil, Col. 2 Tim. Tit. & Phile.)

Both the epistle of Hebrews and James was written, as James 1:1 tells us, 'to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad'. The danger in regard to both, was that they should go back into Judaism: and thereby, 'If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.'

In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
Last edited:
@Jim
Red, that is simply not true. The ability to believe is in the creation of man. It is one of the traits derives from the spirit of man formed in him at or before birth. Your view is that man is no better than any in the rest of the animal kingdom.
I decided to make a short posit. @brightfame52 has everyone against him, let me see what I can do to help.

Jim, good morning~ I agree that Adam before he fell into sin had the power to believe and so did Eve, which is a given. But Jim, once he sin and death by sin, so death passed upon all, for that all sin IN ADAM!

1st Corinthians 15:22​


“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.”

Before a man can do spiritual acts pleasing to God, he MUST be quicken to life to do so.
 
@Jim

. The ability to believe is in the creation of man.

It is but only in the new created man Eph 4:24

And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

The old adamic man is dead because of sin, and cannot please God Rom 8:8

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
A believer, christian is the product, creation of God for His Glory Isa 43:7


Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.

So if we say we believed by our own freewill even while dead in sin, and what we did made us a believer, a christian, we usurp the Glory that only belongs to God, we aided Him in His Creation Glory!
 
@Jim

I decided to make a short posit. @brightfame52 has everyone against him, let me see what I can do to help.

Oy! doh.gif
Jim, good morning~ I agree that Adam before he fell into sin had the power to believe and so did Eve, which is a given. But Jim, once he sin and death by sin, so death passed upon all, for that all sin IN ADAM!

1st Corinthians 15:22​


“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.”

Before a man can do spiritual acts pleasing to God, he MUST be quicken to life to do so.
Oy! doh.gif
 
Ref:- Reply#26 (Page 2) & Hebrews 6:4-5 & James 5:19-20

Hello @Doug Brents,

You have failed to rightly divide the word of truth by not taking note of to whom the word within the references you have quoted refer. You have said that they were part of 'The Body of Christ', when, at the time of writing, the church which is body of Christ was not made known: The revelation of God to the Apostle Paul concerning it having not yet been revealed. (See Eph. Phil, Col. 2 Tim. Tit. & Phile.)
The Body of Christ was revealed (though it did not yet exist) when Jesus stated that He would build it on the confession given by Peter. And 5000 people were added to it on the day of Pentecost. It did not take the writing of Eph. Phil, Col, 2 Tim, Tit, and Phil for it to exist.
Both the epistle of Hebrews and James was written, as James 1:1 tells us, 'to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad'. The danger in regard to both, was that they should go back into Judaism: and thereby, 'If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.'
It does not matter how one falls away, whether back into Judaism, or into open rebellion, or into a secret, unrepentant sin. What matters it that those who do fall away in such a way may be to the point of being irredeemable.
 
The Body of Christ was revealed (though it did not yet exist) when Jesus stated that He would build it on the confession given by Peter. And 5000 people were added to it on the day of Pentecost. It did not take the writing of Eph. Phil, Col, 2 Tim, Tit, and Phil for it to exist.

It does not matter how one falls away, whether back into Judaism, or into open rebellion, or into a secret, unrepentant sin. What matters it that those who do fall away in such a way may be to the point of being irredeemable.
If they fall away then that's evidence they were not saved, because saving by God is completed, He saves the soul, which ones dont draw back, the writer of Hebrews makes the distinction in Heb 6:9

9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

See perseverance accompanies Salvation, the ability to suffer for Christ Phil 1:29

29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
Those in Hebrews were drawing back because of suffering for the name of Christ.

Then again in Heb 10:38-39


38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

39 ;But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

You two groups of them, they are separate, the one group that falls back, cannot be identified with the them group that believe to the saving of the soul

Its compatible with what John wrote also about them that depart from the true doctrine 1 Jn 2:19

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us[The saved]; for if they had been of us[The saved], they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us[Saved].

John said they were never really saved, if they would have saved like John was, they would not have departed from the truth.
 
@Jim

I decided to make a short posit. @brightfame52 has everyone against him, let me see what I can do to help.

Jim, good morning~ I agree that Adam before he fell into sin had the power to believe and so did Eve, which is a given. But Jim, once he sin and death by sin, so death passed upon all, for that all sin IN ADAM!
Good morning Red, I hope the day finds you well and happy.

To your argument, you just had to add that nonexistent phrase, "IN ADAM" to Romans 5:12 to make your case. It is not there. The reason that death passed to all men as actually stated in Romans 5:12 is because all sinned. And the death that spread to all men because they sinned is spiritual death, not physical death. The very idea of your concept that mankind sinned "in Adam" when Adam sinned is just plain wrong. That would mean that God imputed Adam's sin to the rest of all mankind. That would clearly constitute an injustice by God making such a doctrine heretical.
1st Corinthians 15:22

“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.”
It is interesting that the phrase "in Adam" occurs only in that verse. It occurs nowhere else in the entire Bible. And that verse is not speaking about spiritual things, but rather, it is speaking about the physical being, the flesh, of mankind. The death at issue there is physical death, not spiritual. We know that because it says also that all will be made alive. That is speaking obviously not of the spiritual regeneration, which is not universal, but rather it is speaking of the universal resurrection of all human beings, both the lost and the saved, at the end of the age, when Christ returns. The physical death of the human being has nothing to do with sin (Gen 3:22); rather it is all the inherent natural functioning of the physical body as created by God in the beginning.
Before a man can do spiritual acts pleasing to God, he MUST be quicken to life to do so.
There is not a single verse in all of God's word that makes such a statement. The very idea of that comes not from Scripture at all, but from the Gnostic background of Augustine's Manicheism; it is heresy. There are any number of verses that say just the opposite of what you have posited there. The discussion which has been ongoing in this topic concerning Ephesians 1:13 should be enough to prove that the idea you have expressed there is wrong. That verses states quite clearly that one is quickened when, i.e., one has heard the word of truth and believed in Jesus Christ. In fact, the idea you have expressed in that statement runs counter to a work of the Holy Spirit in bringing one to Christ described by Jesus in John 16.

Jesus said there in verses 8 and 9, " And when he (the Holy Spirit) comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: concerning sin, because they do not believe in me...."

Being convicted concerning sin is clearly a spiritual act and awareness that occurs in those who "do not believe in me (Jesus Christ).

I will stop there.
 
@Jim



It is but only in the new created man Eph 4:24

And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

The old adamic man is dead because of sin, and cannot please God Rom 8:8

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
A believer, christian is the product, creation of God for His Glory Isa 43:7


Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.

So if we say we believed by our own freewill even while dead in sin, and what we did made us a believer, a christian, we usurp the Glory that only belongs to God, we aided Him in His Creation Glory!
Clearly you do not understand what it means "to please God". If you have lived you entire life and committed only a single sin, you have failed to please God. That does not mean that God was displeased with all the rest of your life in obedience to Him. What did God say to Cain? He said, "If you do well, will you not be accepted?" And that was even after God had rejected Cain and his offering.

I will add here that even the fact that you have introduced the idea of regeneration into OT dialog is wrong. Regeneration is strictly a feature of the new covenant.
 
In regard to Hebrews 6:4-6, once enlightened - which means to bring to light, to shed light upon or to cause light to shine upon some object, in the sense of illuminating it. John 1:9 describes Jesus, the "true Light," giving light "to every man," but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. The light either leads to acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject the light.

In regard to partakers of the Holy Spirit, the word translated “partaker” can certainly refer to a saving partaking in Christ, as we read in Hebrews 3:14, yet it can also refer to a less than saving association or participation. See Luke 5:7 and Hebrews 1:9 - "comrades, companions," which describes one who shares with someone else as an associate in an undertaking. These Hebrews who fell away had obviously in some aspect shared in the ministry of the Holy Spirit, but in what way? There are other ministries of the Holy Spirit which precede receiving the indwelling and sealing of the Holy Spirit, which only genuine believers receive. (Ephesians 1:13)

Those who fall away absolutely could have been affiliated closely with the fellowship of the church. Such people certainly may have experienced sorrow for sin, heard and understood the gospel and have given some assent to it and have become associated with the work of the Holy Spirit while around believers and have tasted the heavenly gift and the powers of the age to come. They may have been exposed to the true preaching of the word of God yet have simply tasted and stopped there. People who have experienced these things may be genuine Christians, yet this alone is not enough to give conclusive evidence that the beginning stages of conversion (repentance unto life, regeneration, salvation, justification, etc..) have taken place for those who fell away. The experiences in Hebrews 6:4-6 are all preliminary to those decisive beginning stages of becoming a Christian, yet those who draw back to perdition after receiving the 'knowledge' of the truth do not believe to the saving of the soul. (Hebrews 10:39)

These certain individuals who fall short of obtaining salvation certainly may have become partakers of the Holy Spirit in his pre-salvation ministry, convicting of sin and righteousness and judgment to come by tasting the good word of God and temporarily responding to His drawing power which is intended to ultimately lead sinners to Christ, yet the writer of Hebrews does not use conclusive terms that these individuals were "indwelled by the Holy Spirit" or "sealed by the Holy Spirit." Genuine believers who have believed the gospel are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption. (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30)

In regard to "tasted" the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, they may have tasted in such a way as to give them a distinct impression of what was tasted, yet they still fell away. Inherent in the idea of tasting is the fact that one might or might not decide to accept what is tasted. For example, the same Greek word (geuomai) is used in Matthew 27:34 to say that those crucifying Jesus "offered him wine to drink, mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not drink it." We do not merely taste, but drink into one Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:13)

In regard to renew them again unto repentance, this does not specify whether the repentance was merely outward or genuine accompanied by saving faith. They have in some sense "repented," there may be sorrow for sins and an attempt to turn from them (moral self-reformation) that non-believers can experience. There is repentance that falls short of salvation, which is clear from Hebrews 12:7 and the reference to Esau, as well as the repentance of Judas Iscariot in Matthew 27:3. Paul refers to a repentance “without regret that leads to salvation,” which shows there is a repentance that does not lead to salvation. As with “belief/faith”, so too with “repentance,” we must always distinguish between what is substantial and results in salvation and what is spurious. Renew them again "unto salvation" would be conclusive evidence for the argument of a loss of salvation.

In Hebrews 6:7-8, we read - For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. In this metaphor relating to agriculture, those who receive final judgment are compared to land that bears no vegetation or useful fruit, but rather bears thorns and thistles. We see in scripture where good fruit is the evidence of spiritual life and a lack of good fruit is a sign of false believers (Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35) so we have an indication that the trustworthy evidence of one's spiritual condition is the fruit they bear (whether good or bad), suggesting that those who fell away in Hebrews 6 were not genuine believers.

*Verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (refers to them as BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION. Thorns and briars and falling away permanently do not accompany salvation and are not fruits worthy of authentic repentance.

It's generally stated by those who believe that salvation can be lost that it can be regained again, yet that would not be the case here if the writer of Hebrews was teaching a loss of salvation. I have heard certain individuals state they know someone who was truly saved, but later lost their salvation, yet only God truly knows the heart of individuals. Certain people "on the surface" may do a good job of looking like the real deal for a while (like Judas Iscariot, who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus - John 6:64-71; 13:10-11) yet to the other 11 disciples, he looked like the real deal, but Jesus knew his heart. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers and it's not always easy to tell them apart.

CONTINUED..
With respect to Hebrews 6:4-6, the word "since" in verse 6 is a bad choice. The NASB has "while" in the margin. That is a better choice, since that means that it is only while "they again crucify themselves.....". That is also the way the ISV translates/interprets that verse.

Note that Romans 11 clearly indicates that those branches broken off from the main trunk of the tree can indeed be grafted back in again.
 
Perseverance is about winning the Lord’s approval, not His acceptance. He accepted us as His children when we believed in Him for eternal life. We can never lose that.

But we will only enjoy His approval if we live our lives by faith in obedience to His commands. And if we are faithfully serving Him when our earthly lives end, then we will experience His ultimate approval—rulership in His eternal kingdom.

.
 
With respect to Hebrews 6:4-6, the word "since" in verse 6 is a bad choice. The NASB has "while" in the margin. That is a better choice, since that means that it is only while "they again crucify themselves.....". That is also the way the ISV translates/interprets that verse.
I already thoroughly covered Hebrews 6:4-6. Multiple translations says since which is good enough for me. Your apparent discrepancy doesn't change what I covered.
Note that Romans 11 clearly indicates that those branches broken off from the main trunk of the tree can indeed be grafted back in again.
The Israelites (Jews) were in the olive tree to begin with because they were the "natural branches" and not because they were all saved. Because of their unbelief and hard hearts God removed His gracious hand from them as a people overall and broke them off from His goodness (but only for a time after which they will be restored - Romans 11:24-26). We Gentiles have now been grafted into God's goodness and are the recipients of His blessings. Paul's warning is that we should not become arrogant because we might lose the goodness and blessings of God just like the Jews lost the goodness and blessings of God.

Professing Christians, who are Gentiles, are corporately in outward covenant with Christ so, it would appear that Romans 11 is speaking about the question of collective ecclesiology and not individual soteriology. I see the warning to this collective body, which is corporately joined to Christ and is in a covenant relationship, but how could this mean that every individual in it is in saving union with Christ? Hence the "cut off." Union with Christ applies to the elect, and only for the elect are, "the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable." (verse 29) But since non-elect covenant members are mixed in, Christ clearly appears to have non-elect branches, like Judas Iscariot (John 15:1-8) and while they may be joined outwardly in covenant with Christ, since they have professed faith in Jesus, the faith of some of them is spurious because they were never truly saved to begin with, even though they were among genuine believers. (1 John 2:19)
 
If they fall away then that's evidence they were not saved, because saving by God is completed, He saves the soul, which ones dont draw back, the writer of Hebrews makes the distinction in Heb 6:9

9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

See perseverance accompanies Salvation, the ability to suffer for Christ Phil 1:29

29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
Those in Hebrews were drawing back because of suffering for the name of Christ.

Then again in Heb 10:38-39


38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

39 ;But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

You two groups of them, they are separate, the one group that falls back, cannot be identified with the them group that believe to the saving of the soul

Its compatible with what John wrote also about them that depart from the true doctrine 1 Jn 2:19

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us[The saved]; for if they had been of us[The saved], they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us[Saved].

John said they were never really saved, if they would have saved like John was, they would not have departed from the truth.
Bright, you are notorious for looking at only one side of an issue and not seeing the truth in Scripture. Yes, some of these passages, like 1 John 2:19, demonstrate that some people who fall away were never really saved. But that is not true of everyone who "falls away". James 5:19-20, Heb 6:4-6, and other passages demonstrate that there are many who really were part of the Church, saved, partakers of the Holy Spirit, but they fall back into unrepentant sin and are lost. 2 Thes 2:3 says that before Christ can come again, there MUST BE an apostasy. To be apostate, a person MUST have once been in the Church. You cannot fall away (be apostate) from something you were never in to begin with.
 
I already thoroughly covered Hebrews 6:4-6. Multiple translations says since which is good enough for me. Your apparent discrepancy doesn't change what I covered.
Oh, perhaps not so thoroughly.

What is good enough for you may not be good enough for some of the rest of us.
 
The Israelites (Jews) were in the olive tree to begin with because they were the "natural branches" and not because they were all saved. Because of their unbelief and hard hearts God removed His gracious hand from them as a people overall and broke them off from His goodness (but only for a time after which they will be restored - Romans 11:24-26).
Some of the natural branches will be grafted back in, but not all. Most of them will not be grafted back in, because to be grafted back in, to be a part of the tree in the NT in any way, requires belief in Jesus. Those who are natural branches who do not believe are cut off (and will remain cut off until/unless they believe). Those who are wild branches are only grafted in if they believe.
We Gentiles have now been grafted into God's goodness and are the recipients of His blessings. Paul's warning is that we should not become arrogant because we might lose the goodness and blessings of God just like the Jews lost the goodness and blessings of God.
The goodness, and salvation, of God will be lost if we are cut off. John 15:2 makes this clear. Every branch IN ME that does not bear fruit will be cut off. You cannot be "in Christ" unless you are saved (that is what the phrase means).
 
@Jim

Clearly you do not understand what it means "to please God

I understand they who are in the flesh[the unregenerate] cant do it And I know believing in Christ is a commandment that pleases God from here 1 Jn 3:22-23

22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

The flesh cant do it Rom 8:8

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
 
One cannot fall or fall away if he was not elevated to begin with. Try falling while you're laying flat on the ground. Can't do it, right? So what you're promoting is reverse logic and because of that the rest of your assertions can be promptly filed away where they belong.
Ive made my point, if they fall away they were never saved.
 
Back
Top Bottom