Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[brightfame52]

Learn basic logic and then we can talk logically. Ok? Until then...Toodles...

If they fall away they were never saved in the first place

 

[Doug Brents]

'In Whom ye also trusted,
after that ye heard the word of truth,
the gospel of your salvation:
in Whom also after that ye believed,
ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Which is the earnest of our inheritance
until the redemption of the purchased possession,
unto the praise of His glory.'
(Eph 1:13-14)

Hello @Doug Brents:

It took a Divine revelation to the Apostle Paul, as The Lord's Prisoner, at the end of the approx. 40yr Acts period, following the rejection by the nation of Israel, both in the land, and in the diaspora, of their Messiah (Acts 28), to make it known, and to establish it. So to dismiss, and merge it with what came before, as you have done, is detrimental to truth.

Your opinion on this is noted, but it does not change what Scripture says. The Church, which is the body of Christ, was established when Jesus shed His blood for her, and 3000 (sorry for the earlier typo) were added to Her on Pentecost, just 7 days after Jesus' ascension.

The truth concerning the church which is the body of Christ had also been 'hid in God' since the world began, until that unveiling (Eph. 3:9), so was not the subject of previous revealed truth.

The extent, meaning, and clarity which Paul brings to the Church does not in any way inhibit its establishment and growth before this revelation to him.

Those who are brought into the church which is the body of Christ, of which Christ Himself is the Head, are saved and sealed, 'in Christ,' with 'the holy Spirit of promise' at the moment that they believe, and that is the guarantee of 'the redemption of the purchased possession', 'unto the praise of His glory'. That is the truth concerning the eternal security of the members of the church which is the Body of Christ.

When one dies in Christ they are certainly eternally secure in Him. But during this life, we can walk away from Him at any point, and that apostasy means damnation.

 

[Doug Brents]

If they fall away they were never saved in the first place

Again with the broken record business. I give you up to your foolishness.

 

[Complete]

* The rewards we earn by faithful service can be lost, but never The Gift of Life.​

 

[Doug Brents]

* The rewards we earn by faithful service can be lost, but never The Gift of Life.​

That is NOT what Scripture says.

 

[mailmandan]

Some of the natural branches will be grafted back in, but not all. Most of them will not be grafted back in, because to be grafted back in, to be a part of the tree in the NT in any way, requires belief in Jesus. Those who are natural branches who do not believe are cut off (and will remain cut off until/unless they believe). Those who are wild branches are only grafted in if they believe.

This is not about individuals losing salvation and regaining it back again. I already explained the rest in post #2,654 but you are free to believe as you wish.

The goodness, and salvation, of God will be lost if we are cut off. John 15:2 makes this clear. Every branch IN ME that does not bear fruit will be cut off. You cannot be "in Christ" unless you are saved (that is what the phrase means).

In John 15:2-6, the branches that bear fruit and remain are genuine believers (like the remaining 11 disciples). The self-attached branches that bear no fruit and do not remain are not genuine believers (like Judas Iscariot). In John 15:2, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.

Greek scholar AT Robertson points out that there are two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas.

John 15 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13) -- NONE.

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the new covenant which was not yet fully established. Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no spiritual life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, Christ neither saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.

The Greek word for “abide” is "meno" which means to remain, tarry, not to depart, continue to be present. Abiding in Christ is not a special level of Christian experience that is only available to a few, elite Christians, but is the position of all true believers. 1 John 4:13 - By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

 

[Jim]

Fall from the Faith. 1 Tim 4

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

I.e.,, once in the faith.

 

[brightfame52]

I.e.,, once in the faith.

If they fall away they were never saved

 

[Jim]

Fall from the Faith. 1 Tim 4

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

So what does it mean that they were in the faith? How could they be in the faith and not be saved?

We see once again that those that lean toward the teachings of the likes of Calvin tend to distort and change the true meaning of some key words in order to conform to those teachings.

 

[civic]

So what does it mean that they were in the faith? How could they be in the faith and not be saved?

We see once again that those that lean toward the teachings of the likes of Calvin tend to distort and change the true meaning of some key words in order to conform to those teachings.

Good luck getting an answer to your question besides they were never saved

 

[Doug Brents]

This is not about individuals losing salvation and regaining it back again. I already explained the rest in post #2,654 but you are free to believe as you wish.

Sure it is. Life is in the vine, and Jesus is the vine. If you are cut off from the vine, then you are cut off from the source of life. And everything cut from the vine, or that was never connected to the vine, is destined for the fire.

In John 15:2-6, the branches that bear fruit and remain are genuine believers (like the remaining 11 disciples). The self-attached branches

What is a "self-attached branch"? There is no such thing. The Father, the Vine Dresser, is the one who grafts branches into the vine, prunes the productive branches, and culls the unproductive. The branches cannot graft themselves in, nor can they cut themselves off (although they can cause themselves to need removing due to unproductivity).

that bear no fruit and do not remain are not genuine believers (like Judas Iscariot). In John 15:2, Jesus mentions branches that bear no fruit and branches that bear fruit but Jesus says nothing about branches that bear fruit but then later stop bearing fruit.

As any cultivator of trees will tell you, when a branch used to produce but has ceased producing, it is cut off and burned. It is not kept around because of past production. That is why we must endure to the end, not just endure for a little while and then give up.

Greek scholar AT Robertson points out that there are two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas.

John 15 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

There is NOTHING in Scripture that points to "two kinds of connections with Christ". We are either connected to Him by the Spirit or we are not connected to Him at all.

When Jesus spoke these words in John 15, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified, had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? - "the body of Christ?" (1 Corinthians 12:13) -- NONE.

John 7:38 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Prior to Jesus' glorification, the Spirit had not been given, but that does not mean that no one prior had been saved. It just means that no one who was saved prior had the indwelling of the Spirit.

So "in me" is part of the metaphor of the vine (in the vine) and not in the body of Christ under the new covenant which was not yet fully established. Without that vital union with Christ, there can be no spiritual life and no productivity. Those who profess to know Christ but whose relationship to Him is self-attached, Christ neither saved them, nor sustains them. Eventually, the dead self-attached fruitless branches are cut off.

All those who were saved prior (David, Abraham, Noah, Joseph, just to name a few) were still "in God". No, they were not part of the Church because the Church had not yet been established. But they were saved, they were in God, they were saved. They were productive for Him.

The Greek word for “abide” is "meno" which means to remain, tarry, not to depart, continue to be present. Abiding in Christ is not a special level of Christian experience that is only available to a few, elite Christians, but is the position of all true believers. 1 John 4:13 - By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

And that is an action verb, not a passive presence. If one ceases to actively abide, then they cease to bear fruit, and are subsequently cut off and thrown into the fire.

 

[mailmandan]

Sure it is. Life is in the vine, and Jesus is the vine. If you are cut off from the vine, then you are cut off from the source of life. And everything cut from the vine, or that was never connected to the vine, is destined for the fire.

What is a "self-attached branch"? There is no such thing. The Father, the Vine Dresser, is the one who grafts branches into the vine, prunes the productive branches, and culls the unproductive. The branches cannot graft themselves in, nor can they cut themselves off (although they can cause themselves to need removing due to unproductivity).

As any cultivator of trees will tell you, when a branch used to produce but has ceased producing, it is cut off and burned. It is not kept around because of past production. That is why we must endure to the end, not just endure for a little while and then give up.

There is NOTHING in Scripture that points to "two kinds of connections with Christ". We are either connected to Him by the Spirit or we are not connected to Him at all.

Prior to Jesus' glorification, the Spirit had not been given, but that does not mean that no one prior had been saved. It just means that no one who was saved prior had the indwelling of the Spirit.

All those who were saved prior (David, Abraham, Noah, Joseph, just to name a few) were still "in God". No, they were not part of the Church because the Church had not yet been established. But they were saved, they were in God, they were saved. They were productive for Him.

And that is an action verb, not a passive presence. If one ceases to actively abide, then they cease to bear fruit, and are subsequently cut off and thrown into the fire.

I'm really not interested in your eisegesis but feel free to believe as you wish.

 

[synergy]

Sure it is. Life is in the vine, and Jesus is the vine. If you are cut off from the vine, then you are cut off from the source of life. And everything cut from the vine, or that was never connected to the vine, is destined for the fire.

What is a "self-attached branch"? There is no such thing. The Father, the Vine Dresser, is the one who grafts branches into the vine, prunes the productive branches, and culls the unproductive. The branches cannot graft themselves in, nor can they cut themselves off (although they can cause themselves to need removing due to unproductivity).

As any cultivator of trees will tell you, when a branch used to produce but has ceased producing, it is cut off and burned. It is not kept around because of past production. That is why we must endure to the end, not just endure for a little while and then give up.

There is NOTHING in Scripture that points to "two kinds of connections with Christ". We are either connected to Him by the Spirit or we are not connected to Him at all.

Prior to Jesus' glorification, the Spirit had not been given, but that does not mean that no one prior had been saved. It just means that no one who was saved prior had the indwelling of the Spirit.

All those who were saved prior (David, Abraham, Noah, Joseph, just to name a few) were still "in God". No, they were not part of the Church because the Church had not yet been established. But they were saved, they were in God, they were saved. They were productive for Him.

And that is an action verb, not a passive presence. If one ceases to actively abide, then they cease to bear fruit, and are subsequently cut off and thrown into the fire.

It's funny to see how people use their imagination, such as brewing up the idea of a "self-attached branch", to prop up their false presuppositions.

 

[synergy]

I'm really not interested in your eisegesis but feel free to believe as you wish.

You have failed to prove that any of @Doug Brents's points are eisegesis.

In fact, your imaginary idea of a "self-attached branch" is by definition eisegesis.

 

[mailmandan]

You have failed to prove that any of @Doug Brents's points are eisegesis.

In fact, your imaginary idea of a "self-attached branch" is by definition eisegesis.

By properly harmonizing scripture with scripture I proved my points and Doug has failed to convince me otherwise. Again, I'm really not interested in Doug's eisegesis or your biased opinion and I don't expect either one of you to understand.

 

[Doug Brents]

By properly harmonizing scripture with scripture I proved my points and Doug has failed to convince me otherwise. Again, I'm really not interested in Doug's eisegesis or your biased opinion and I don't expect either one of you to understand.

I forgive you.

 

[synergy]

By properly harmonizing scripture with scripture I proved my points and Doug has failed to convince me otherwise. Again, I'm really not interested in Doug's eisegesis or your biased opinion and I don't expect either one of you to understand.

I fully understand that your idea of a "self-attached branch" is a figment of your imagination.

 

[Complete]

* The rewards we earn by faithful service can be lost, but never The Gift of Life.​

'But now being made free from sin,
and become servants to God,
ye have your fruit unto holiness,
and the end everlasting life.
For the wages of sin is death;
but the gift of God is eternal life
through Jesus Christ our Lord.
(Rom 6:22-23)

'As concerning the gospel,
they are enemies for your sakes:
but as touching the election,
they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.'
(Rom 11:28-29)

Praise God!

 

[brightfame52]

So what does it mean that they were in the faith? How could they be in the faith and not be saved?

We see once again that those that lean toward the teachings of the likes of Calvin tend to distort and change the true meaning of some key words in order to conform to those teachings.

What you mean in the Faith ? Please provide the scripture that says someone "in the faith" fell away, and then I will spend a little time explaining it.

 

[Jim]

* The rewards we earn by faithful service can be lost, but never The Gift of Life.​

'But now being made free from sin,
and become servants to God,
ye have your fruit unto holiness,
and the end everlasting life.
For the wages of sin is death;
but the gift of God is eternal life
through Jesus Christ our Lord.
(Rom 6:22-23)

'As concerning the gospel,
they are enemies for your sakes:
but as touching the election,
they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.'
(Rom 11:28-29)

Praise God!

Romans 28-29 means that God will not repent of His promises, that He will not change His mind. But that does not say the we cannot change our minds. We are saved by grace through faith and we will stay saved by grace through faith. Grace is God's part, faith is our part. Grace will not change but our faith could change.