FYI, it wasn't the "Water" that cleansed the Levite Priest. It wasn't the "water" that cleansed Naaman. It wasn't the "water" that cleansed men John baptized, it wasn't the "water" that cleansed those the Apostles baptized. These are all symbolic of the day when the repentant Faithful will be "Changed", literally regenerated, from a corruptible body, to a non-corruptible body. If this doesn't happen, then the Faith of Jesus is in vain.
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FYI, it wasn't the "Water" that cleansed the Levite Priest. It wasn't the "water" that cleansed Naaman. It wasn't the "water" that cleansed men John baptized, it wasn't the "water" that cleansed those the Apostles baptized. These are all symbolic of the day when the repentant Faithful will be "Changed", literally regenerated, from a corruptible body, to a non-corruptible body. If this doesn't happen, then the Faith of Jesus is in vain.
What blood at His baptism?
This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.
If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. 1 John 5:5-9
This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood.
These are two of the three witnesses, that confirm Jesus Christ is the Messiah.
Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel. Isaiah 7:14
again
For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:6
Do you understand what came by water and blood means?
It wasn’t anything to do with the law of Moses.
That’s the point.
My question that you are running from still remains unanswered.
Do you believe Christians who gather sticks on the Sabbath should be put to death?
@Jim
This is an interesting topic to discuss, and I just got caught up reading to this point.
Later....RB
Jim, I desire to post on this in the morning, too busy to do so now, since my wife is attending a baby shower for our granddaughter, who is having a boy in couple of months, and left me watching some of the younger grandchildren, who could watch themselves, but it's good to have an adult around to maintain law and order.
This is an interesting topic to discuss, and I just got caught up reading to this point.
Later....RB
So now its He came by baptism and crucifixion? If it said He went by blood then you would have a point. Nevertheless it says He came by water and blood.
This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood.
1 John 5:6
“Came by” water refers to being born; coming into this world.
That's your point, Not God's.
I'm done with your deceptive ways. I have answered your question over and over, and you accused me of ""Spiritualizing God's Word to suit your own narrative". Please, if you insist on being so dishonest, just take your deception elsewhere.
Where did you find the Flesh of Jesus to eat. Stop being a hypocrite.
It’s God’s
Water baptism started with John the Baptist. It was foreshadowed in the Old Testament. The law was until John.
You posted a bunch of word salad to try and explain away your position. Here is what it means to answer a question.
Question:
Do you believe Christians should be put to death for picking up sticks on the Sabbath?
Answer: No
That what an answer looks like.
Then from there if you intend to explain your answer then do so. But don’t lie and say you answered my question.
Here is your question.
"Do you and your congregation obey this commandment to put to death people "who do any work on the Sabbath"?
here is my answer.
You lied and said I didn't answer. So I answered again.
Which you didn't do, even though you pretended to be interested in a conversation.
And here is your reply.
"You are spiritualizing the law of Moses to fit your own narrative".
It is God who teaches that the wages for committing Adultery, Killing people, and doing work on His Holy Sabbath, is death.
You have tried to get me to, just as the same spirit on the Pharisees tried to get Jesus to, denounce God, and profess with our mouths that we don't believe in God or His Judgments. Jesus didn't fall for the exact same evil deceptive tactic from the deceivers, the mainstream preachers of His Time.
The Spirit of the Christ "of the Bible" "saw you coming", and kept me from falling for the Same Evil Deception, from the same spirit, for which I am eternally Grateful.
As I have told you, because you "said" you were interested in having a conversation, and was interested in what I believed,
I find ZERO Evidence in Scriptures where God has instructed "ME" or my Brothers, to carry out "God's Judgments" on those who treat Him and His Words "with so much disrespect and dishonor."
So the fact that I, or my brothers do not engage in "Putting to Death" anyone, is not proof that we don't Love God or are not striving against Sin. It is proof that we DO Love God and have yielded ourselves to God, like Paul. "Thou shall not Kill".
And I will not be tricked by the "other voice" in the garden God placed me in, into denouncing the God and Father of the Lord's Christ, because I truly do believe in Him and His Judgments that teach that the Wages of Sin is death. You are free to adopt the words of the other voice in the garden "thou shall surely not die" if you want. But I believe "Every Jot and Every tittle" of the Word of God, and will until Jesus returns to "Fulfill ALL" that is written about Him.
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Where did you answer my question?
Is that a yes or no?
My answer is no. Christians are not put to death for picking up sticks on the Sabbath.
What’s your answer?
dwight92070
Active Member
Even the good soil hearer is never said to have been saved, but we know he was.
Jesus said that those on rocky soil "believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away".
We should trust what Jesus said: They believed, but they soon fell away. So they were saved, but soon they fell from their salvation. Why make it more complicated than what Jesus actually told us happened?
dwight92070
Active Member
No, Jesus did not lie. You forgot verse 27:
"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me."
NOW verse 28 "and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish" Who? His sheep who hear His voice, whom He knows and they follow Him.
Those who follow Him, who hear His voice, will receive eternal life and will never perish.
When they stop following Him and seeking His voice, there is no promise of eternal life or of never perishing.
These truths are very plain and simple. Jesus always gives a condition for receiving His promises -faith in Him until we die is the condition. If we continue in faith in Him, we will seek His voice and we will follow Him, because we are truly His sheep.
@synergy
Folks like you seek and go after "sound bites" that seemly would favor their position, faithful men of God, like Ezra of old, practice honest biblical hermeneutics.
We do not read the word of God, like local newspaper ~ we read the scriptures distinctly, and THEN we compare what we are reading with others scriptures, and seeking the true God intended biblical sense of what we are reading, so that we may come unto the biblical meaning of God's testimony to us of any truth we are seeking to understand. This is being honest with God's word, not what you are are practicing in order to support your bias sects teaching of baptismal regeneration, a bold work base system that seeks to rob Christ of his alone glory of securing the salvation for God's elect.
Again, briefly....Nicodemus came to the Lord Jesus, making a very godly confession of who he knew Jesus was, a true prophet sent from God, because as Nicodemus said ~no man could do the miracles that Jesus was doing except God be with him. This godly (yes godly) confession was so much different than his fellow Pharisees who said that Jesus did what he did through the power of the devil! Based on his confession Jesus said to him:
“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
Nicodemus came right back and ask, a child like question:
The Lord used the words "born again" by the very fact of what Nicodemus said back to him ~"can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?" Jesus then said:
Following the discourse's context, it should be clear to any sincere seeker of the truth that the Lord only used the phrase ~"Except a man be born of water" referring to Nicodemus' question, "can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?" A strong proof of this is seen here:
“That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”
That which is born of flesh (our first birth from our mother's womb) is flesh and will NEED a second, spiritual birth BEFORE one can see, hear, and understand!
"that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” The new birth, creating a spiritual man within the person born again, giving them the mind of Christ, which image is created in God's children.
That's what allowed Nicodemus to see and understand, even though he was in a babe state of understanding, much more to yet believe and understand. We all have been, and pray still growing in grace and knowledge.
Water (baptism) has not one iota to do with being born again, except all who have been and believe should arise and be baptized into the faith and religion of Jesus Christ.
synergy, as your name is, so are you, a workmonger, seeking to add the works of the flesh, into the salvation that God secured for his elect by Christ's life of obedience, death, and resurrection, based upon His oath and promises of grace to them.
Folks like you seek and go after "sound bites" that seemly would favor their position, faithful men of God, like Ezra of old, practice honest biblical hermeneutics.
Nehemiah 8:8
“So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.”We do not read the word of God, like local newspaper ~ we read the scriptures distinctly, and THEN we compare what we are reading with others scriptures, and seeking the true God intended biblical sense of what we are reading, so that we may come unto the biblical meaning of God's testimony to us of any truth we are seeking to understand. This is being honest with God's word, not what you are are practicing in order to support your bias sects teaching of baptismal regeneration, a bold work base system that seeks to rob Christ of his alone glory of securing the salvation for God's elect.
John 3:3
“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”Again, briefly....Nicodemus came to the Lord Jesus, making a very godly confession of who he knew Jesus was, a true prophet sent from God, because as Nicodemus said ~no man could do the miracles that Jesus was doing except God be with him. This godly (yes godly) confession was so much different than his fellow Pharisees who said that Jesus did what he did through the power of the devil! Based on his confession Jesus said to him:
John 3:3
“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
Nicodemus came right back and ask, a child like question:
John 3:4
“Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?”The Lord used the words "born again" by the very fact of what Nicodemus said back to him ~"can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?" Jesus then said:
John 3:5
“Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”Following the discourse's context, it should be clear to any sincere seeker of the truth that the Lord only used the phrase ~"Except a man be born of water" referring to Nicodemus' question, "can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?" A strong proof of this is seen here:
John 3:6
“That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”
That which is born of flesh (our first birth from our mother's womb) is flesh and will NEED a second, spiritual birth BEFORE one can see, hear, and understand!
"that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” The new birth, creating a spiritual man within the person born again, giving them the mind of Christ, which image is created in God's children.
1st Corinthians 2:14-16
“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.”That's what allowed Nicodemus to see and understand, even though he was in a babe state of understanding, much more to yet believe and understand. We all have been, and pray still growing in grace and knowledge.
Water (baptism) has not one iota to do with being born again, except all who have been and believe should arise and be baptized into the faith and religion of Jesus Christ.
@synergy
Back over fifty years ago, I searched and ponder these very scriptures carefully, because I was confronted with some Church of Christ folks who believed in baptismal regeneration, that at water baptism we are placed IN CHRIST legally, (not the exact terminology they used, but it was the meaning of what they meant) and that's the only way to get INTO CHRIST, so, as a young believer seeking to do that which was commanded by God, I wanted to know if this was so, for that's not the reason I was baptized....in order to legally have my sins washed away and be placed IN Christ.
Here is my understanding of these verses before us, that can be supported with God's overall testimony, which we must do, since the scriptures are indeed one cohesive whole, teaching ONE truth on any particular doctrine that is under consideration throughout the scriptures.
“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?" Without question water baptism is under consideration. What does it mean to be baptized INTO Jesus Christ? Impossible for water baptism to place us IN Christ, since we were IN Christ before the foundation of the world, we were chosen IN Christ, so water baptism cannot in any way legally put one in Christ, impossible, only the false teaching of CoC and other sects believe this is so.
Not only is that true, but we have NEVER been outside of Christ in an eternal sense before God, never. His people are members of his flesh He being the head thereof. We were IN him while he lived in this world, what he did, it was as though WE DID IT, etc. We were IN him when he died on the Cross; we were IN him when he arose form teh dead, etc.
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:”
So, bottom line water baptism does not place us IN Christ legally, impossible.
“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?" When one is baptized, he/she is baptized INTO the faith and religion/teachings of Jesus Christ.. It can mean no more than that, based upon the scriptures overall teachings.
Water baptism has NO saving power legally, at best, only practically speaking base on a post I made a couple of days ago. See #1932 You said:
"Being buried in water signifies having been buried with Christ—dying to our old sinful nature. Being raised up from water signifies having been raised to new life in Him, born again by the power of His resurrection."
I agree, without dissecting each and every part of you sentence to see exactly what you mean, but yes, the rest of Romans 6 pictures forth this in baptism, along with a few other truths.
Later on Colossians 2.
Romans 6:3-6
“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.”Back over fifty years ago, I searched and ponder these very scriptures carefully, because I was confronted with some Church of Christ folks who believed in baptismal regeneration, that at water baptism we are placed IN CHRIST legally, (not the exact terminology they used, but it was the meaning of what they meant) and that's the only way to get INTO CHRIST, so, as a young believer seeking to do that which was commanded by God, I wanted to know if this was so, for that's not the reason I was baptized....in order to legally have my sins washed away and be placed IN Christ.
Here is my understanding of these verses before us, that can be supported with God's overall testimony, which we must do, since the scriptures are indeed one cohesive whole, teaching ONE truth on any particular doctrine that is under consideration throughout the scriptures.
“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?" Without question water baptism is under consideration. What does it mean to be baptized INTO Jesus Christ? Impossible for water baptism to place us IN Christ, since we were IN Christ before the foundation of the world, we were chosen IN Christ, so water baptism cannot in any way legally put one in Christ, impossible, only the false teaching of CoC and other sects believe this is so.
Ephesians 1:4
“According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:”Not only is that true, but we have NEVER been outside of Christ in an eternal sense before God, never. His people are members of his flesh He being the head thereof. We were IN him while he lived in this world, what he did, it was as though WE DID IT, etc. We were IN him when he died on the Cross; we were IN him when he arose form teh dead, etc.
Ephesians 2:5,6
“Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:”So, bottom line water baptism does not place us IN Christ legally, impossible.
“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?" When one is baptized, he/she is baptized INTO the faith and religion/teachings of Jesus Christ.. It can mean no more than that, based upon the scriptures overall teachings.
Water baptism has NO saving power legally, at best, only practically speaking base on a post I made a couple of days ago. See #1932 You said:
"Being buried in water signifies having been buried with Christ—dying to our old sinful nature. Being raised up from water signifies having been raised to new life in Him, born again by the power of His resurrection."
I agree, without dissecting each and every part of you sentence to see exactly what you mean, but yes, the rest of Romans 6 pictures forth this in baptism, along with a few other truths.
Later on Colossians 2.
mailmandan
Active Member
If the rocky ground hearer was saved then where is the fruit? Only the good ground hearers produced a crop (fruit) of various sizes and faith without works is dead. It's not complicated and not all belief is the same and saves as I already proved from scripture. I trust what Jesus said. I just don't trust your eisegesis. A shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away is not saving belief. Period.
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How much belief does it take to be saved? How much fruit in required to prove that the belief is sufficient to be saved?
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