Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[JLB]

I answered your question honestly, so you can understand what I believe. Here, let me post my answer again, only this time, actually read it. Feel free to ask me question about my detailed and from the heart answer.



Therefore, the old man in me who breaks God's Sabbaths, is "put to death" in obedience to God's Commandments. So that the New Man, "Which after God is created in righteousness and true Holiness", can honor and respect God in His Sabbaths, and Live.

This is the Gospel of the Christ "of the Bible", as it is written:

Ez. 18: 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart (the old one put to death) and a new spirit (Spirit of Christ) for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

You are spiritualizing the law of Moses to fit your own narrative.


The honest answer is no, you don’t put people to death for picking up sticks to make a fire on the Sabbath.


I gave you ample opportunity to be honest. You chose to be deceitful.


Why?

 

[Jim]

@Jim @ MTMattie

Well, Jim it is discussed, just not directly. In OT all were born again without water baptism; and no, the new birth is not a NT teaching, which is clear from John 3:1-8, before the NT was ratified with the blood of Jesus Christ Opinions do not count, as you well know, and thank you for not saying what your opinion is, for no one cares, and God certainly does not, and neither does he care about mine, or anyone else that may come to one's mind.

There is not a word or even a hint of being born again in the OT. The discussion with Nicodemus in John 3 most likely is referencing Jesus' teachings concerning baptism (Mark 1:4; Luke 3:3; John 5:1-2).

Water baptism has not one thing to do with the new birth.

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

The only logical and biblical reference of water here is the water of baptism.

 

[Jim]

Thank you very much.

TYVM

 

[GodsGrace]

Adam had no capability nor authority to effect the spirits of anyone but his own.

Why does the NT teach that because of Adam all men die?

Through one man sin entered the world...Roman 5:12
What does this mean?

The whole concept of the theological federal head is a false construct to support a false doctrine. And it is a construct the demeans God Himself.

It's a false construct if Romans 5:12 is incorrect.
Why would it demean God?

God put Adam in the Garden, perfectly created.
Adam put himself under the death penalty...not God.

How does what Adam did demean God?

Only from a misguided reading.

One of us is certainly misguided.
That goes without saying.

But you are and do again and again.

It comes up at times.
I reply at times because what you believe is not what Christianity teaches.
I do wonder how you learned this....but I suppose it doesn't matter..except that one hears
so much on these Forums that is extra-biblical.

 

[Jim]

The wage of sin was spiritual death.

Adam died the moment he sinned

True

when he sinned, all sinned.. because adam is the human head.

False

lets talk about baptism. why do y9ou want to earn your salvation?

I haven't said anything about wanting to earn salvation.

 

[GodsGrace]

you did not learn this from scripture.

If you can forfiet, it means you must earn..



for salvation, yes

for christian growth. no.. it takes lots of learnign to trust God in each area of our lives

then you were not reading correctly

yes. but that does not save you make you more saved or keep you from losing salvation

yes, agree 100%

not to stay saved, but to grow in grace and truth, and be more like Christ

which is a works based. merit based. salvation.

you better obey the whole law. because thats prety much what you have decided. you must obey, God set the standard.

amen

amen, and no one advocates this. please stop accusing falsly..


Context is where your missing the point

Yes. departing from grace

Before grace has been applied to you.. People come to churches all the time, and get close. and at last minute decide it is not for them and walk away

they did not lose salvation.

yes, Whoever is born of God can not live in sin.. because they have been born of God

if they can not live in sin they can not lose salvation.

why?

whoever lives in sin has never seen or known God that is our former state, when we were dogs.

We will not fall away and lose salvation when we can not even return to what we were before. at no time in a saved persons life are they worse than they were before they were saved

Why does Paul warn against something that cannot happen?

 

[GodsGrace]

So Jesus did not pay it all?

what did he do on the cross?

Jesus said over and over, whoever does not believe is condemned, Not whoever sins. Because the sin issue is resolved.

No.

it means that our sin can not condemn us, If it could. we are under law.. are you under law?

yes. And incorrect theology causes a person to see a correct statement as incorrect.

It is clear

Jesus went to the cross.

All mankind's sin were put on his body

He paid the debt for everyone's sins (unless your a calvinist) so that whoever believes will not perish but live forever.

he who believes is not condemned,

Agreed.

And if I believe, I will obey.
Obedience requires works.
No scripture today.
Too busy and have to leave till later.

he who does not believe is condemned already

Agreed.

those are the two determining factors of who will be saved and who will not

not sin.

Agreed,,,except to say that we're not supposed to sin.
It sounds, again, like you're saying we could sin and still be saved....
IOW,,, as if it's not so bad to sin.

 

[Jim]

Why does the NT teach that because of Adam all men die?

It doesn't teach that anywhere in the NT.

Through one man sin entered the world...Roman 5:12
What does this mean?

It simply means that until Adam there was no sin in the world. He was the first. Romans 5:12 says nothing about all die because of Adam.

It's a false construct if Romans 5:12 is incorrect.
Why would it demean God?

It would mean that God is holding the entire company of human beings accountable for Adam's sin. That would have been the ulimate injustice.

God put Adam in the Garden, perfectly created.
Adam put himself under the death penalty...not God.

Not quite. God is the punisher of sin. Adam sinned. So God put him under the death penalty.

How does what Adam did demean God?

It doesn't. Your claim that God is holding the rest of us accountable for what Adam did is what demeans God.

One of us is certainly misguided.
That goes without saying.

Yes indeed. It is not me that is accusing God of blaming the rest of mankind for Adam's sin.

It comes up at times.
I reply at times because what you believe is not what Christianity teaches.

Well, "Christianity" teaches a lot of things that are not true. "Christianity" teaches a lot of things that are not in the Bible.

I do wonder how you learned this....but I suppose it doesn't matter..except that one hears
so much on these Forums that is extra-biblical.

I learned that by reading and studying the Bible.

 

[JLB]

Agreed.

And if I believe, I will obey.
Obedience requires works.
No scripture today.
Too busy and have to leave till later.

Agreed.

Agreed,,,except to say that we're not supposed to sin.
It sounds, again, like you're saying we could sin and still be saved....
IOW,,, as if it's not so bad to sin.

So true.

The common thread that runs through those who hold to Calvinism/Reformed Theology is denial.


Just simply denying what the scriptures so plainly say.


… that exalts itself against the knowledge of God

 

[JLB]

It doesn't teach that anywhere in the NT.

Jim

The scriptures are clear that sin has passed on to all humanity from Adam.


Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men… Romans 5:12


This is why we must be born again.

 

[Aaron]

I'm soooo tired of this EG.

Do YOU know anyone that is perfect?
I don't.

So does this mean we don't even TRY?

Jesus stated who He will not know:
Those That Are Lawless.

Those that don't follow the law...
Jesus' law, not the Law of Moses.

I sin...but I AM NOT LAWLESS.

Let's keep our definitions in line with the NT.
1 John 1 and 1 John 3:9

“Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Matthew 5:48​

Yes we must keep trying.

This sounds like an impossible standard Jesus is placing before us. How can we be as perfect as God? What did Jesus mean?

 

[Studyman]

You are spiritualizing the law of Moses to fit your own narrative.

That is "Your Narrative" that you set out to place on my neck before you even asked me your trick question.

And, FYI, the Holy Scriptures "ARE" Spiritual, and the God who created them "IS" a Holy Spirit. And the Laws given to us by God's Servant Moses, are God's Laws, not Moses' Laws. And Paul tells you, if you could only believe him, that God's Laws are Spiritual.

It is you who are being dishonest and deceitful here.

The honest answer is no, you don’t put people to death for picking up sticks to make a fire on the Sabbath.

I'm tasked with judging myself, not you. You are free to reject, mock, preach against any of God's Laws that you think are beneath your honor and respect, and demean and belittle those who believe God all you want. I only have been given power by God, to submit myself to Him and His instruction in righteousness. I can not make you respect God.

The really sad part is you have really been convinced that God is this unjust, incompetent hypocrite, that says out of one side of His mouth, "Don't kill others" and out of the other side of His mouth, "Kill others".

Paul said this is a condition, delusion of many, and he explains why.

Rom. 1: 21 Because that, "when they knew God", they glorified him "not as God", neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

I don't know if your masters will let you consider or not, but just think about the religion you are promoting to others here.

You are saying that if I believed the Jesus of the Bible, believed His Father who sent Him, believed His Prophets HE sent, then I would have to go around murdering people. And the fact that I am not murdering people, means that I don't really believe in God.

That's messed up JLB.

I gave you ample opportunity to be honest. You chose to be deceitful.

Why?

I "put to death" the man God intended me to "put to death". I crucified the sinful old man, Crucified with Christ, so that I, the New Man, who doesn't mock His Sabbaths and Commandments, may live.

This is not deceitful, dishonest or malicious in any way. This is "MY" understanding of Scriptures that you pretended to be interested in, but clearly you are not.

Ex. 31: 14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off "from among his people".

"Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it: whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death:"

"He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death."

"And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death."

"And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death."

"And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death."

"But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death."

"And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death."

"And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood shall be upon them."

In other words JLB, "The Soul that Sins shall die".

If you can't grasp this simple Milk of the Word, then your problem is with the Christ "of the Bible", not me.

 

[JLB]

That is "Your Narrative" that you set out to place on my neck before you even asked me your trick question.

And, FYI, the Holy Scriptures "ARE" Spiritual, and the God who created them "IS" a Holy Spirit. And the Laws given to us by God's Servant Moses, are God's Laws, not Moses' Laws. And Paul tells you, if you could only believe him, that God's Laws are Spiritual.

It is you who are being dishonest and deceitful here.


I'm tasked with judging myself, not you. You are free to reject, mock, preach against any of God's Laws that you think are beneath your honor and respect, and demean and belittle those who believe God all you want. I only have been given power by God, to submit myself to Him and His instruction in righteousness. I can not make you respect God.

The really sad part is you have really been convinced that God is this unjust, incompetent hypocrite, that says out of one side of His mouth, "Don't kill others" and out of the other side of His mouth, "Kill others".

Paul said this is a condition, delusion of many, and he explains why.

Rom. 1: 21 Because that, "when they knew God", they glorified him "not as God", neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

I don't know if your masters will let you consider or not, but just think about the religion you are promoting to others here.

You are saying that if I believed the Jesus of the Bible, believed His Father who sent Him, believed His Prophets HE sent, then I would have to go around murdering people. And the fact that I am not murdering people, means that I don't really believe in God.

That's messed up JLB.



I "put to death" the man God intended me to "put to death". I crucified the sinful old man, Crucified with Christ, so that I, the New Man, who doesn't mock His Sabbaths and Commandments, may live.

This is not deceitful, dishonest or malicious in any way. This is "MY" understanding of Scriptures that you pretended to be interested in, but clearly you are not.

Ex. 31: 14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off "from among his people".

"Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it: whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death:"

"He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death."

"And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death."

"And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death."

"And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death."

"But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death."

"And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death."

"And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood shall be upon them."

In other words JLB, "The Soul that Sins shall die".

If you can't grasp this simple Milk of the Word, then your problem is with the Christ "of the Bible", not me.

Do you obey the law of Moses concerning the Sabbath?

Do you sacrifice animals for your sins?


If you don’t then you are not obeying the law of Moses. It’s that simple.


If you are guilty on one point of the law, then you are guilty of all the law.

 

[Studyman]

“Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Matthew 5:48​

Yes we must keep trying.

This sounds like an impossible standard Jesus is placing before us. How can we be as perfect as God? What did Jesus mean?

If I may, please consider Paul's words, who speaks to this very thing, in my view.

Phil. 3: 12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing "I do", forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God (Which is) in Christ Jesus.

15 Let us therefore, as many "as be perfect", be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

In my experience and understanding, Jesus was the perfect human. He Lived by God's Laws, and instructed us to Live By them as well. In the same way HE instructed Adam and Eve to Live By them. So for the Faithful examples in the Bible, it was a "Way of Life", striving against sin, striving for the Narrow Path Jesus walked. But be warned, there are "other voices" in the garden God placed you in, Who profess to know God, just as there was for Adam and Eve. My advice is to only Listen to God, and His Son who HE sent, through the Holy scriptures. God has created for us in them, a "WAY of the Lord" with Armor and weapons to help us resist the wiles of the devil, and that will help us survive the journey of this life, so as to endure to the end. If we are truly seeking Him and thirsting for HIS Righteousness, HE is faithful to direct our feet.

 

[GodsGrace]

It doesn't teach that anywhere in the NT.

It simply means that until Adam there was no sin in the world. He was the first. Romans 5:12 says nothing about all die because of Adam.

Do you believe there were humans on earth before Adam?

It would mean that God is holding the entire company of human beings accountable for Adam's sin. That would have been the ulimate injustice.

Who said we're accountable for Adam's sin?
We are responsible only for our own sins.

What Romans teaches is that THROUGH Adam...sin ENTERED into the world.
And when Adam sinned...if AFFECTED all of mankind.

Sin affected everything....it even affected man's DNA...it became imperfect.
So this thing that Adam let into the world is still affecting every person born.

We are not responsible for his son....we are affected by it.
This effect it has on us is sinful in and of itself....THIS is why God no longer has the rapport with mankind that He once did.
Adam's choice of satan over God was, to say the least, insulting to the God that created him. It made God turn away from him.

So, we are in a lost state without God.
We need to get back to God...this is why He planned salvation for us through His Son, our Savior.

Do you agree with ANY of this?

Not quite. God is the punisher of sin. Adam sinned. So God put him under the death penalty.

It doesn't. Your claim that God is holding the rest of us accountable for what Adam did is what demeans God.

I'm sorry Jim...with all due respect, I think you're not grasping Genesis 1 through 3.

Yes indeed. It is not me that is accusing God of blaming the rest of mankind for Adam's sin.

We're not BLAMING him for it....
we're blaming him for its effects.
(maybe it's the same idea).

Well, "Christianity" teaches a lot of things that are not true. "Christianity" teaches a lot of things that are not in the Bible.

I learned that by reading and studying the Bible.

If we read the bible on our own...we do come up with some odd ideas.
We should study the bible in a good church setting AND read it on our own.

What I'm stating has been taught to me by 3 different denominations AND I can confirm it with scripture.

But I think I remember having this convo with you and it's only going to repeat.

 

[Doug Brents]

Yes.
]
they must recieve him, period. nothign else is required.. Jesus paid the price of redemption on the cross "it is finished"

The question is, how is He received. Not through "belief/faith only". That is a fallacy that has permeated the Church. There is only one place in all Scripture where "faith only", "belief only" (or any similar phrase) is found, and that is in James 2:24 where it says that we are justified NOT by faith alone.

Yes they would,,

So coming to Atlanta to pick up the car that I purchased for you means you deserve the car? You earned the $1,000,000 car because you walked, drove, hitchhiked, or in some other way got yourself to Atlanta? What value does any of that contribute to me? Or to the dealer? Or to anyone?

lol.. what does this have to do with you falling on your knees crying out like the pharisee.

and not pumping your chest boasting of all your good works.

Have I pumped my chest or boasted about any good works I have done? No. My only boasting is in Jesus who forgave (and continues to forgive) my sins because of His great mercy.

 

[Jim]

Jim

The scriptures are clear that sin has passed on to all humanity from Adam.

No, the scriptures are not clear about that.

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men… Romans 5:12

Why did you leave out the reason Paul stated why death spread to all men. Why did death spread to all men?

"...so death spread to all men because all sinned-- " (Rom 5:12)

This is why we must be born again.

No, it is not. We must be born again because WE sinned. God didn't blame us for anything someone else did, not your parents, not your parents parents, and certainly not Adam.

 

[Doug Brents]

actually, jim is wrong on all parts.

Israel was not promised heavenly Jerusalem

Yes, we are.

They were not promised heavenly jerusalem

if they were. all jews are saved..

Wrong. Ethnic Judaism is of no value at all to God. Any ethnic Jew who believes in Jesus remains part of Israel, but any ethnic Jew who does not believe in Jesus is cut off from Israel. And any Gentile who believes in Jesus will be grafted into Israel, but any Gentile who does not believe in Jesus will remain cut off from Israel. But it is the same Israel to whom the promises were made.

God promised Israel physical land.. Not heaven.

again, if he promised them heaven, all jews are saved.

Originally, the promise appeared to be a physical land, but in reality the promise was of Heaven, a spiritual land (Heb 11:13-16).

 

[GodsGrace]

“Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Matthew 5:48​

Yes we must keep trying.

This sounds like an impossible standard Jesus is placing before us. How can we be as perfect as God? What did Jesus mean?

To be perfect in Matthew 5:48 just means to be complete...
complete in our love for God.

Of course Jesus didn't mean that we must be perfect.
Jesus understood human nature...He knew we could not achieve perfection.

When using logic in reading scripture...we are forced to try to understand all passages.
If we know that Jesus knows our very nature...
then we must also know that He cannot mean that we must be perfect.
So He clearly meant something else...

Be perfect is a goal.
God is perfect in love.
God is perfect in mercy.
God is perfect in justice.

Jesus taught the Beatitudes as to how we should behave in Matthew 5.
THIS is the goal for which we should be reaching.

Act as God taught us to act.

 

[Aaron]

If I may, please consider Paul's words, who speaks to this very thing, in my view.

Phil. 3: 12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing "I do", forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God (Which is) in Christ Jesus.

15 Let us therefore, as many "as be perfect", be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

In my experience and understanding, Jesus was the perfect human. He Lived by God's Laws, and instructed us to Live By them as well. In the same way HE instructed Adam and Eve to Live By them. So for the Faithful examples in the Bible, it was a "Way of Life", striving against sin, striving for the Narrow Path Jesus walked. But be warned, there are "other voices" in the garden God placed you in, Who profess to know God, just as there was for Adam and Eve. My advice is to only Listen to God, and His Son who HE sent, through the Holy scriptures. God has created for us in them, a "WAY of the Lord" with Armor and weapons to help us resist the wiles of the devil, and that will help us survive the journey of this life, so as to endure to the end. If we are truly seeking Him and thirsting for HIS Righteousness, HE is faithful to direct our feet.

Preach it! Good answer.