Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[Lily]

yes

and all of our sin was placed on him. Not just particular sins, or sins up to a certain date.. All of them

Yes, past, present, future sins.

One of the Bible’s greatest truths is that Christ died to take away all our sins–not just part of them, but all of them: past, present, and future.

This is why you shouldn’t fear that you will lose your salvation every time you commit a sin. If that were the case, you and I would lose our salvation every day–because we sin every day. Even if our actions are pure, our thoughts often are not. And even if our actions and thoughts are pure, we still sin because of the good things we should be doing but fail to do.

Never forget: Your salvation does not depend on you and how good you are.

It depends solely on Christ and what He has already done for you through His death on the cross. The Bible says that Christ “appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself” (Hebrews 9:26).

Does that mean it doesn’t matter whether or not you sin? No, of course not. Sin is serious; it is an offense to God, and it breaks our fellowship with Him. Sin also compromises our witness for Christ. The Bible is clear: “Be holy, because I am holy” (1 Peter 1:16).

But you cannot live the Christian life in your own strength. You need God’s help–which is why He has given His Holy Spirit to you. When you sin, confess it immediately, and then seek the Holy Spirit’s help each day to live as you should.

Billy Graham said that

 

[JLB]

If we trust in the words he says.

if we do not. then there is no faith... or we may not be confident in what he says, so we may believe, but our faith might be elsewhere

Your mixing up these words together as if all these words are the same words.

Faith
Believe
Trust


Faith is a noun. It what we receive from God when we hear Him.


Believe is our action we take when we hear Him.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Eternal life is being in Christ, joined to Christ and one spirit with Christ.

yes

and who is in christ. those who recieve him in faith

Those who are removed from Christ no longer have eternal life, because they are no longer in Christ.

Then they never had eternal life. they had conditional life

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
John 15:1-2

This is about producing fruit. Not about being saved or losing salvation.

It’s no about whether eternal life is eternal or not.

Yes it is

God said we would never perish, did he mean it
He said we will live forever (eternal life) did he mean it

It’s about whether you remain in Christ who is eternal life; the Spirit of life in Christ.

I can;t remain in christ, I do not have that power. God must keep me.. if he lets go. I fall

why do you trust self?

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:6


Only those who remain in Christ will continue to benefit from the eternal life in Christ.

repeatring the same nonsense over and over again does not make it true. if your interpretation was wrong the first time it will still be wrong the second tim e

Here’s how John instructs us to remain in Christ.


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24

ahh,

so we are under law (keeps his commands) not under grace (forgiven because we can not keep his commands as required. which is perfect.. no sin. not breaking one commands. Gods standard. not mans standard of a watered down law so they can make themselves appear to keep them )

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Yes, past, present, future sins.

One of the Bible’s greatest truths is that Christ died to take away all our sins–not just part of them, but all of them: past, present, and future.

This is why you shouldn’t fear that you will lose your salvation every time you commit a sin. If that were the case, you and I would lose our salvation every day–because we sin every day. Even if our actions are pure, our thoughts often are not. And even if our actions and thoughts are pure, we still sin because of the good things we should be doing but fail to do.

Never forget: Your salvation does not depend on you and how good you are.

It depends solely on Christ and what He has already done for you through His death on the cross. The Bible says that Christ “appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself” (Hebrews 9:26).

Does that mean it doesn’t matter whether or not you sin? No, of course not. Sin is serious; it is an offense to God, and it breaks our fellowship with Him. Sin also compromises our witness for Christ. The Bible is clear: “Be holy, because I am holy” (1 Peter 1:16).

But you cannot live the Christian life in your own strength. You need God’s help–which is why He has given His Holy Spirit to you. When you sin, confess it immediately, and then seek the Holy Spirit’s help each day to live as you should.

Billy Graham said that

we do not even know every sin we commit. we are still learning that and growing.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Your mixing up these words together as if all these words are the same words.

Faith
Believe
Trust

faith means trust. to be assured
Belief can be in different stages. I may believe yet not trust. I may believe but my trust lies elswhere
trust. literally means faith.. I can believe and not trust

Faith is a noun. It what we receive from God when we hear Him.

No. I recieve his words.. I trust in his words I am saved

If I donot trust his words. i am not saved

Believe is our action we take when we hear Him.

I can believe and not trust.

keep fighting, I will give you that, but your fighting a losing battle

Keep fighting it my friend.

 

[Lily]

we do not even know every sin we commit. we are still learning that and growing.

Yes growing in righteous.

“God made Him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.” – 2 Corinthians 5:21

 

[synergy]

Again, by cultivating the qualities listed in 2 Peter 1:5-7, Christians can be sure that God has called them and elected them. These fruits will confirm it. Make sure you have been called and elected - bébaios (an adjective, derived from bainō, "to walk where it is solid") – properly, solid (sure) enough to walk on; hence, firm, unshakable; (figuratively) absolutely dependable, giving guaranteed support (security, surety). God called believers to faith in the gospel (2 Thessalonians 2:14) and He has also chosen them before the foundation of the world. Their election becomes a sure foundation. These qualities that we add to our faith give us assurance of our calling and election, though they are not the basis or means of our salvation. This is not about "type 2 works salvation" or salvation by works at the back door/pull yourself up by your own bootstraps and keep yourself saved, as you may suppose.

Again, 2 Pet 1:10 makes it clear what needs to be made sure. You need to "make your ... election sure".
You disregard that statement and instead say "Christians can be sure that God has called them and elected them."
See the object switch you're attempting to do?
Posts built on the changing of Bible sentences will not be considered.

(2 Pet 1:10) Therefore, brothers, rather be diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you do these things, you shall never fall.

 

[ProDeo]

Because "you" like to eat pigs! How pathetic.

What about cows?

Serious question.

 

[synergy]

you deny it when you claim the first faith (not the faith) is the not the faith that saves.

There's no first, second, or third faith. That's just you who can't handle the fact that the Apostles call it the One Faith.

They said they had faith
so throw it all all you want. they mean the same thngs
Yes. Can the faith, the faith THEY SAID THEY HAD SAVE THEM.
the answer is no
So did the faith they said they had profit them? Did it save them?
the answer is no.
if you think the answer is yes. they you believe a dead faith saves. A licentious faith saves. That a person who says a sinners prayer. but has not repented and does no work whatsoever for God or the church. The very people Jude condemned, and peter condemned, are saved
You can not walk that back.

Of course it's no. Your attempt to portray me as preaching a licentious believers crashes and burns.

The faith refers to the faith they said they had
basic language skills would show this to be true
can the faith that the people who had no works, save them.
the answer is no.
if you say yes, you are preaching a licentious believers is saved
non responsive..

The fact remains that God is "demonstrative in force" but nobody calls him "that God". Same thing for the Faith.

Some advise for you: If you're so hung up on Scholars, then consult opposing Scholars and weigh the evidence before you immediately jump to the Scholar that feeds your presuppositions.

 

[Studyman]

What about cows?

Serious question.

Well, I would suggest that if you are serious about this question, that you follow the instructions of the Jesus "of the Bible" and SEEK out God's Righteous Judgment about cattle.

In this way, you are not adopting my opinion or philosophy, rather, you are "Doing" the Sayings of Jesus, and seeking to know God's judgment concerning these things, and Jesus said if we Seek God's Righteousness, the answer to your question will be added unto you.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Again, 2 Pet 1:10 makes it clear what needs to be made sure. You need to "make your ... election sure".
You disregard that statement and instead say "Christians can be sure that God has called them and elected them."
See the object switch you're attempting to do?
Posts built on the changing of Bible sentences will not be considered.

(2 Pet 1:10) Therefore, brothers, rather be diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you do these things, you shall never fall.

yes

that does not mean we need to keep tryign to earn a salvation we could never earn to begin with.

PS. I thought you were proud because people ran.. so much for that

Exactly! I even told them to put their money where their mouth is by justifying themselves before us. They run away as quickly as they can. Talk about hypocrisy. That takes the cake.

so much for people running away..

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Yes growing in righteous.

“God made Him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.” – 2 Corinthians 5:21

yes,

its based on Gods work. not our own works,,

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

There's no first, second, or third faith. That's just you who can't handle the fact that the Apostles call it the One Faith.

yes,

and the people of james did not have that one faith.

Of course it's no. Your attempt to portray me as preaching a licentious believers crashes and burns.

well when we read what you say and what your arguing for. we can come to no other conclusion.

The fact remains that God is "demonstrative in force" but nobody calls him "that God". Same thing for the Faith.

The faith is the fath that they people said they had.

not the faith that saves.

if the faith they they said they had is the faith that saved, then you sup[port a licentious gospel

don;t blame me for calling a spade a spade

Some advise for you: If you're so hung up on Scholars, then consult opposing Scholars and weigh the evidence before you immediately jump to the Scholar that feeds your presuppositions.

lol

Some advise for you

learn some humility

I do not listen to men.. so I am not sure why you would talk about me looking to a scholar..

I just read what you say and interpret what you say..

 

[synergy]

talk about walk around the truth

we merit things we earn by the hard work we do

we merit rewards. we merit wages

Yourself, @GodsGrace and @synergy among others do not seem to understand the issue here.

We do not. we can not. and we have never merited a gift. ( I know Godsgrace says she agrees with this, but does she? Can her words prove she believes this, or do they betray her?)

We see the issue. You can’t decouple works from merits. It is possible to decouple them. Read Luke 6:35.

(Luke 6:35) But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil

A gift is given out of love of another, a father,. a teacher, a mother, a spouse. a good friend, it is paid for by the one giving the gift. If compensation is required for the person who was given the gift. then in reality, it is not a gift. we call that a down payment, or a request for goods and services in exchange for the item we have given the person. or a bartering tool one could say, which is a temporary gift at best. as if the other person does not pay his share. the gift is taken back, In scripture this is called a dual covenant, I promise will give you these services and you promise to give me those services. The covenant is binding on both parties. If one parties fails to fulfill their promise. then the covenant is null and void. and the second party is no longer obligated to fulfill their part

Sadly, we have come to a society where gifts are not really gifts. I just have to laugh at car commercials where they promote giving your loved one a new 90,000 dollar car as a Christmas gift. Unless the person who gave the car has paid all 90,000 dollars, it is not really a gift in the sense it was not paid for. In essence what you are doing is giving your partner permission to buy this car he always wanted to buy. so the person who is given the car. still has to merit the car buy continuing to work to pay for that car.

A gift given still needs to be received. You still have to acknowledge it, unwrap it, care for it, thank the person for it, etc…. There are actions involved. How can you possibly view those actions as meritorious?

this is what legalism teaches, in many ways

1. Salvation is not a gift. it is a down payment, Like that car that the wife gave the husband, The person given the gift must work hard to continue to earn that gift. If he does not. that gift will be lost (the bank will take it back because it was not paid for or God will take it back because it was not earned or merited)

Let’s take the gift of the Holy Spirit as an example. Paul calls it an ἀρραβῶνα. In traditional societies, ἀρραβῶνα is an engagement that comes before a marriage. That is the period before marriage. In the exact same analogous way, we become engaged to the Holy Spirit wherein we grow towards the future Marriage of the Lamb.

(2Co 1:22) And He has sealed us and having given the earnest (ἀρραβῶνα) of the Spirit in our hearts.

(2Co 5:5) And He who has worked in us for this same thing is God, who also is giving to us the earnest (ἀρραβῶνα) of the Spirit.

(Eph 1:14) who is the earnest (ἀρραβῶνα) of our inheritance, to the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

2. Salvation is not a gift. its a bartering tool - God gives is initial salvation. and barters for us to return the favor by doing good works. by serving him, by changing our lives and stopping sin. As long as we pay God with our obedience we are ok. we can keep the gift. If we faith however to do our part. then they gift is taken back or lost.

That bartering thinking is just silly but obedience to God is important, wouldn't you say?

Paul attempts to show this in Gal 3. when he calls the Galatians fools for thinking they begin in the spirit (grace) but perfect in the flesh (works)

Gal 3: O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?

Notice the words

The gospel - Jesus crucified
Did you receive the spirit by works (get saved, get rescued from the penalty of sin, the law is in context here. but any work would fit)
Or did you receive it by the hearing if faith (true saving faith)
He then calls them fools.
Beginning in the spirit (faith). do you now have to perfect or keep this gift of the spirit through the flesh (works)
Then he calls their salvation in question. Are you really saved (did you suffer in vein? if indeed it was in vein)

the other issue we have, is salvation is not just a gift. My wife can give me a gift out of her love where she paid for it. But I still could have paid for it myself. (it does not negate the value of the gift)

Salvation is said to be of grace. Unmerited. we can not earn it. so we could not pay for it by our works. If it is just a down payment, everyone will lose it. because no one can pay for it.

if it is a bartering tool. it will be returned. because what God demands we do in return we are unable to do. (if we could. it would not be of grace. it would be of works)

We are part of the Abrahamic covenant. God told Abraham I WILL. he demanded nothing in return. in Gen 15 we see God make this covenant,. Abraham had no part. He put abraham in a deep sleep. and he said I promise to do this.

Abraham Believed God in all his promises and because of Abrahams faith. he was counted as if he were perfect. (given righteousness even though his standing was not righteous)

Paul in romans 4 said we are saved under the same covenant "in you shall all nations be blessed"

17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did;

Next paul gives us the definition of faith. The faith we have been discussing, what is it. what does it look like?

18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.” 19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.

There is no works involved. it is the work of God. God made an I will promise

I will give you eternal life
I will make you alive in him
I will make sure you never perish
I will give you my spirit as a seal
I will ressurect you in the end
I will make sure you do not come under Gods wrath
I will rescue from the wage po your sin which is death

I can go on and on. do we have the same confident assurance Abraham did? Do we have the same hope. contrary to hope and believe or trust God will do these things based not on our works. but his work? Are we not strengthened in faith. and not wavering tossed to and fro but assured (satan wants us to not have assurance)

if we do. we have saving faith

if not. we may believe, but we are most likely not saved, and most likely fall under the trap of legalism, or licentiousness

so if people want to Mock those who understand these spiritual truths and call out to God like the tax collector. and remain to live in grace and understanding, God saved them, and God keeps them saved. if they have to rely on self. they will fail .

well let them.

and to those being mocked. Don't fret. God has your back, God will nto leave nor forsake you. Its not a free will issue. a calvinist issue. not even an Arminian or catholic issue

it is the promise of God.

God called our Israel and made promises to them based on grace. those promises still stand today.

God saved us and made promises to us we trusted. and those promises still stand today and forever.

Its on God. his character is at stake not ours.

In Gal 3, Paul was against Peter trying to Judaize the new converts with works of the Law. Our ancestors kicked that habit 2000 years ago. You're still in that situation?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

We see the issue. You can’t decouple works from merits. It is possible to decouple them. Read Luke 6:35.

well thank you. You just supported my view. I am blessed

35 But love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil.

You love your enemies expecting nothing in return, And you MERIT a reward.. not only a reward but a GREAT REWARD

Salvation is a gift.. how many times do you have to be told?

(Luke 6:35) But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil

see. You did what you always do. you highlight the wrong part of the passage, and not the part which would prove you wrong.

There i corrected it for you

A gift given still needs to be received.

Yes, But as many as has received him

You still have to acknowledge it,

That's where true saving faith comes in, Otherwise you will not receive it or acknowledge it

unwrap it, care for it, thank the person for it, etc….

I thank God for it every day.

caring for it? I can not make it any better or any worse. it is eternal. it is unbreakable.

I am sorry you feel your gift is breakable..

There are actions involved. How can you possibly view those actions as meritorious?

We do it every day

every day I go to work and work hard to merit my wage

Let’s take the gift of the Holy Spirit as an example. Paul calls it an ἀρραβῶνα. In traditional societies, ἀρραβῶνα is an engagement that comes before a marriage. That is the period before marriage. In the exact same analogous way, we become engaged to the Holy Spirit wherein we grow towards the future Marriage of the Lamb.

(2Co 1:22) And He has sealed us and having given the earnest (ἀρραβῶνα) of the Spirit in our hearts.

(2Co 5:5) And He who has worked in us for this same thing is God, who also is giving to us the earnest (ἀρραβῶνα) of the Spirit.

(Eph 1:14) who is the earnest (ἀρραβῶνα) of our inheritance, to the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

That bartering thinking is just silly but obedience to God is important, wouldn't you say?

If your obeying to merit salvation.

Then your rejecting grace.

Its called bartering, or a downpayment

God gave me a gift. paid in full.

you want to earn it. feel free. But good luck

In Gal 3, Paul was against Peter trying to Judaize the new converts with works of the Law. Our ancestors kicked that habit 2000 years ago. You're still in that situation?

Actually your ancesters did not kick it. they brought in a different set of laws. and made the same mistake

Gal 3 is just as relevent to you as it was the jews. You both make the same mistake

 

[synergy]

You just plainly contradicted paul and cause James and paul to be at odds,. apposed to each other

Romans 4:
4 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

16: Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

Eph 2:
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

You have to resolve the contradiction. I have

Again, Paul is talking about works of the Law. My ancestors kicked that habit 2000 years ago. If your circles still practice it then talk to them.

You continue to blatantly contradict James when he said the following:

(James 2:24) You see then how a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

You want to boast of your works. feel free. Count me out

Nobody is boasting of anything here. That's just your imagination flaring again.

 

[synergy]

these are not the same faith

what will it take to get this to break the barrier in your will to see this..

If it was the same faith, it would have saved them, and they would have produced some works.. The fact they produced zero works, proves it was not the same faith

False.

Are you actually going on record that The Faith (ἡ πίστις) of Rom 10:17 is not The Faith (ἡ πίστις) of James 2:14b????

"Then the Faith (ἡ πίστις) is of hearing, and hearing by the Word of God." (Rom 10:17)
"Can the Faith (ἡ πίστις) save him?" (James 2:14b)

You are flagrantly denying the obvious.

Yes. Because IT IS NOT FAITH

False.

It is not only faith but the Faith (ἡ πίστις) that James 2:26 is talking about.

"... the Faith (ἡ πίστις) without works is dead" (James 2:26).

Then you and paul are at odds.
You need to start resolving the contradiction. I am done with james, there is nothing more to say on that subject matter

Again, Paul is talking about works of the Law. My ancestors kicked that habit 2000 years ago. If your circles still practice it then talk to them.

You continue to blatantly contradict James when he said the following:

(James 2:24) You see then how a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Observation:
This is a battle between the Greek NT and all other NT that, either deliberating or not, failed to properly translate the Greek NT.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Again, Paul is talking about works of the Law. My ancestors kicked that habit 2000 years ago. If your circles still practice it then talk to them.

You continue to blatantly contradict James when he said the following:

No Paul was not

There was no law in Abrahams day

eph is not based on the law. but on works.. As in titus 3 any good deed.

(James 2:24) You see then how a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Nobody is boasting of anything here. That's just your imagination flaring again.

lol. you have paul and james apposed to each other

good luck

 

[Doug Brents]

no such thing

In your personal opinion, but not in Scripture.
Matt: 6:15 says differently.
Matt: 19:21-35 says differently.
Matt: 10:22-32 says differently.
Matt 24:13 says differently.
Luke 12:41-46 says differently.
Rom 11:20-21 says differently.
1 Cor 9:27 says differently.
1 Cor. 15:1-2 says differently.
Col 1:22-23 says differently.
Heb 3:6, 14 says differently.
Heb 6:4-6 says differently.
James 5:19-20 says differently.
2 Pet 2:20-22 says differently.
Rev. 2:10, 25-36, 3:1-5 says differently.

 

[MTMattie]

A comment: To no one in particular.

Works of the law are no longer for us.

But do we need to do works.

First question to ask yourself if you are certain that you are or will be saved is this.

Would you not want to do things here on earth to "help" the Father and Jesus and yes even the Holy Spirit since they cannot
walk the earth and do it themselves?

Are you so selfish as to just ignore things that need done for not only the Kingdom but mankind in general?

Do you not even want to do anything for God?

There IS still an enemy here that may well leave us alone because of our relationship with God but should you just turn your back when you see people need help.

A lady posted on a local social channel thing called Next Door that a local store had delivered groceries. And someone stole them off her porch. She needs help. Would you ignore a plea because she has tpo wait 30 days for another delivery.

Common people.... get real.

We ARE GOD ARMY in a way. We must put up or shut up because if we do nothing then it is right for Him to ignore our prayers and petitions.

These are not commanded works but they are needed.