Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[mailmandan]

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

The Greek word for justified is"dikaioo" which depending on the context means:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered - fits the context
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidence for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, “acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, “they declared God just.” This is the "sense" in which God was “justified.” He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

The harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:21,24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous. James, however is using the term to describe those who would show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, there is a lot of confusion concerning works in this world's religious system and you are definitely correct to question popular religious philosophy in the garden God placed you in, in my view, and good for you for doing so.

If I may, there is an often overlooked fact in Matt. 7 regarding the Prophesy Jesus told about the Judgment Day. "In that day" signifies the day Jesus returns to, as HE tells us in REV. 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man "according as his work shall be"..

Some will be raised to everlasting live, and some to eternal death. There is to be a 1000 years between these two resurrections.

This is the time when men will be resurrected and talk to Jesus face to face. In Matt. 7:22, These men have already seen their judgment and they are pleading to the Judge, trying to get a reprieve. In essence they are saying, "Wait a minute Jesus, don't you know who we are?" We had I Jesus bumper stickers. We created a birthday for you. We created massive religious businesses all in your name. We fed random poor people and cast out demons all in your Name.

I have heard the foolish interpretation that these men where "bragging" about their good works, but that isn't what's going on at all.

"Many" will say to me "in that day",Lord, Lord, "have we not"prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

These men are appealing their judgment. Like the Rich man, they see their predicament, they know the True believes have been with Christ for a 1000 years, and are appealing their judgment.

But here is what the Judge tells them.

"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you:depart from me, ye that workiniquity."

We all have "Works". We all "Yield ourselves" servants to obey something, someone. That is simply an undeniable fact of our existence.

The popular implication that works mean nothing is indeed a very dangerous philosophy. Good for you to recognize and point this out. Don't be surprised if your are demeaned or ridiculed by the promoters of this world's religious system.

Hi Studyman...
What great encouragement!
Yes, for the past 10 years, and in ANY Forum I post in....
I'm called a legalist and even been told that good works are sinful because they put the spotlight
on me instead of on God....they are as filthy rags, etc. (which does't even really apply per Isaiah).

I don't know much about eschatology....but other than that I agree with everything you've posted
re Matthew 7 and In That Day....

Yes. Jesus is not only our Savior (I Jesus, Made a Birthday, etc.)
But He is also our Lord.

 

[JLB]

no. they are not man made.

People in scripture had faith in their works. Thats why the jews crucified Christ.

there is faith there is a God
there is faith in religion
there is faith in works
there is faith in self


Please post the scripture that uses these phrases.

 

[GodsGrace]

yes

many people like these think they are saved by how good they are. by their works. by what they do or do not do.



NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! STOP WITH YOUR LIES!!!!!!!!!!!!

I did not say this, if you are not able to hear. then you need to back away

EG....
Go back and read what you wrote.
It's in black and white.

I DO GOOD WORKS EVERYONE IN MY CHURCH DOES GOOD WORKS. WHEN WE COME TO GOD. WE WILL NOT BOAST IN THESE WORKS AS A MEANS TO GET TO HEAVEN

WE DO THEM BECAUSE WE ARE SAVED, NOT TO GET SAVED

Right.
You do them because you ARE saved....

I NEVER said works are done to become saved.
Here's what I've always stated:

HOW to get to heaven:

1. Believe in God.
2. Obey God.

If we OBEY God,,,we are doing good works!

Jesus taught this...not me.
Do I need to post verses again??

Your not listening

to get to heaven, to save yourself. to be made right with God they are useless

You're speaking about Before salvation,,,,,right?
Then I agree with you 100%.

No amount of good works will save you.

God expects Nothing from unbelievers.

It's Believers from whom God expects to be obeyed.

You do believe this is correct, right?

to bear fruit. to do works for god. to become like Christ to grow in Christ they are required

OK.
So we Are to bear fruit...to do good works....
Agreed.

So let's just say that and be clear about it.

Now. What you teach is dangerous. because you teach we must work if we want to get to heaven

Right. Jesus said this.
To get to heaven, we Must obey Jesus.

If you need more scripture....tomorrow.
Past midnight here.

 

[mailmandan]

Says nothing about being born again or some universal principle that no born again person can fall away.

It's like, "Here's a verse that vaguely sounds like what we want, that settles the matter!"

But of course we all know that's "eisegesis," the Calvinist's favorite word.

"If they had been of us then they would have continued with us" settles it for me. I'm actually not a Calvinist. Why are you so obsessed with losing salvation?

I have found that all false religions and cults that promote salvation by works/works righteousness strongly oppose OSAS which has always been a major red flag for me.

 

[GodsGrace]

yeah he did

John 1, John 3, John 4, John 5, John 6..

I can go on and on and on

yes. after we are saved by the promise he made in the verses above

Your right, it is not burdensome. for those who are saved and have his spirit in their hearts as a guarantee

Then why fight against it so much if it's not burdensome!

Also, Don't do what @mailmandan does.
John 1, John 3, John 4, John 5, John 6........is Not posting scripture!

Post a couple and we'll discuss.

 

[GodsGrace]

1 would do..

how many do youneed to show that once a person is rescued from the penalty of sin. they will never perish, they will live forever. they will never be lost. they have been saved, they have passed from judgement to life etc etc..

not based on how good they are or how many works they do.

but based on Gods mercy and love

Here's the post in question...
it was posted by @Dizerner

He stated nothing, but just posted this:

Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you
an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today,"
lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
For we have become partakers of Christ
only if we hold the beginning of our confidence
steadfast to the end...

(Heb. 3:12-14)


YOU said he did some word twisting.

So I asked you how many verses you need to show that we must HOLD ON to the beginning of our confidence to the end and not DEPART from the Living God.

If Paul (?) wrote the words....we should take them at face value.

 

[Azriel]

God gave people free will to reject his Word.

I have never EVER even implied differently.

Or more impotently importantly in this case, your word.

 

[GodsGrace]

"If they had been of us then they would have continued with us" settles it for me. I'm actually not a Calvinist. Why are you so obsessed with losing salvation?

I have found that all false religions and cults that promote salvation by works/works righteousness strongly oppose OSAS which has always been a major red flag for me.

LOL
Funny Dan.
OSAS has NEVER been part of the church's teaching from the beginning of time.
I think I posted a whole page of Early theolgians regarding this.

But they're not inspired of course, right?
But the Robertson guy who knows Greek,,,I guess HE is inspired, right?

Funny.

 

[Dizerner]

Or more impotently importantly in this case, your word.

Well, Scripture clearly warns us.

It's on you to mock that, not on me.

 

[Dizerner]

But the Robertson guy who knows Greek,,,I guess HE is inspired, right?

He's definitely decent at Greek, but biases can affect us all no matter how educated.

 

[mailmandan]

He's definitely decent at Greek, but biases can affect us all no matter how educated.

Even the early church fathers which Roman Catholics are very fond of quoting. That says it all for me.

 

[Dizerner]

Even the early church fathers which Roman Catholics are very fond of quoting. That says it all for me.

Yeah, they were all kinds of messed up for sure.

However, they do have some good things to say sometimes.

 

[mailmandan]

Here's the post in question...
it was posted by @Dizerner

He stated nothing, but just posted this:

Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you
an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today,"
lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
For we have become partakers of Christ
only if we hold the beginning of our confidence
steadfast to the end...

(Heb. 3:12-14)

YOU said he did some word twisting.

So I asked you how many verses you need to show that we must HOLD ON to the beginning of our confidence to the end and not DEPART from the Living God.

If Paul (?) wrote the words....we should take them at face value.

In Hebrews 3:8-10, we read - do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, in the day of trial in the wilderness, where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, and saw My works forty years. Therefore, I was angry with that generation, and said, 'They always go astray in their heart, and they have not known My ways.' Not descriptive of genuine believers. There is no loss of salvation here. Only a failure to receive it. Verses 18-19 - And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So, we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. That explains the hardened heart. It took them in the opposite direction of God. Considered the truth for a time, then hardened heart and departing from God became their final answer.

In Jude 1:5, we read - the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.

Hebrews 3:14, we read - For we have become partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast our confidence firm to the end.

*Notice that the wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end. It is rather - "you have been, and now are, partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast the beginning of your confidence steadfast to the end.

Now what about those faltering Hebrews who end up departing from God after beginning with some level of confidence and profession of loyalty, but then later? Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion.

 

[Dizerner]

Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion.

Lordship OSAS is at least mildly better than Free Grace, which teaches you can literally make zero changes in your life.

 

[mailmandan]

Yeah, they were all kinds of messed up for sure.

However, they do have some good things to say sometimes.

Yes, I have read good and bad things from them. They were not infallible.

 

[GodsGrace]

I do not know a person living who would fit any of those categories. have you met any? Do I know them?

Well, EG, brother, I'm saying this in a nice way.
The world does not revolve around YOU.

I've had to read many posts, probably more than you, and let me tell you, YES, these persons exist.
Do you know them?
Probably one of them, but I'm not naming names.
And there was one guy on ChristianChat that devoted all his time to telling everyone that our works are filthy rags....
you know HIM...but not naming names.

This is how it is EG....
Some persons on these boards have been taught that we need to rely SOLELY on ourselves.
This is known as monergism. I know you hate isms, but that's the word.

God is a relatinship.
Good.
Any relationship is TWO-SIDED....
This is knows as synergism.

Synergism is what is taught in the bible.

God did HIS part....He atoned for our sins....the gates of heaven have been opened...no more Abraham's Bossom.

Now it's time to do OUR part....
obey Jesus.
DO as he taught.

But james spoke to them in james 1 and 2, Jude spoke of them in his epistle. calling them licentious, Peter called them out in 2 peter 2 as false teachers. and even paul called them out.

what sad is. You fight this false gospel. by doing 180 out. and instead of stopping in the middle where you need to be, you keep on going to a works based gospel which paul fought in all of his epistles.

James was fighting a licentious gospel (some say it was gnostic. i am not sure I agree) as did Peter and Jude

Paul fought legalism. or adding works to the gospel of Christ. those who say faith is great, but you must be circumcized. be baptized. Obey all these commands, follow all these traditions, if you do not , you might not get to heaven..

its amazing.. a licentious or easy believer as you just mentioned would call me lagalistic. Because if he were my disciplere. i would call him out for his sin, I would call him to grow. and I would call him to good works.

Yes. There some nuance here....
but I believe it's important to be clear.
Gnosticism was already crawling into the church before John died.
This is why he said THEY LEFT US BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT OF US (not yelling)...
but this is taken to mean that they were not really saved.
Which, really doesn't mean too much,,,,,many LISTEN and then they don't like what they hear and they leave.
Just like Jesus said in John 6....when He asked if the Apostles also would leave.
It does not mean they were saved, then became lost....
It just doesn't apply AT ALL.

a legalist calls me licentious. because I refuse to claim that any works I do. or any amount of work I do will not determine my eternity.. My faith is in the work of God. not in my own works.

I believe this is where we disagree.
Our faith is in the work of God.
The Cross.
Agreed.

But you have NO faith in YOUR works?
And yet we are told to pay attention to do them:

• Matthew 5:16:
  "Let your light shine before others, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven."
  
  
• Titus 3:8:
  "This is a trustworthy saying, and I want you to affirm it constantly: that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men."
  
• Galatians 6:9-10:
  "Let us not grow weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the household of faith."
  
  
• Hebrews 10:24-25:
  "And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good works, not abandoning our assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the day drawing near."
  
  
• 1 Timothy 6:17-18:
  "Command those who are rich in this present age not to be arrogant or to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share."
  
  
• Ephesians 2:10:
  "For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
  
  
• James 2:26:
  "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead."

 

[GodsGrace]

Yeah, they were all kinds of messed up for sure.

However, they do have some good things to say sometimes.

When the ECF's PRE 325AD were in agreement on some topic...
we MUST listen to them.

They were taught by the Apostles,,or those that the Apostles taught.

Members will say they were not inspired,,,and then go on to quote all sorts of men:
I'm just now speaking to someone who quotes John MacArthur...
others are quoting a Greek scholar...

Let's think for a minute:
Who will know more about a verse:
A greek scholar
or someone taught by JOHN ??

The ECFs have much to offer.
But I like to stick to the bible unless, for some reason, they're mentioned.

The bible is our authority.

 

[Dizerner]

When the ECF's PRE 325AD were in agreement on some topic... we MUST listen to them. They were taught by the Apostles,,or those that the Apostles taught. Members will say they were not inspired,,,and then go on to quote all sorts of men: I'm just now speaking to someone who quotes John MacArthur... others are quoting a Greek scholar... Let's think for a minute: Who will know more about a verse: A greek scholar
or someone taught by JOHN ?? The ECFs have much to offer. The bible is our authority.

It's not that important a point really, but your view of the ECFs seems a bit too high maybe as a holdover from RCC theology. It is not relative time that makes someone's teaching more or less accurate or inspired, it is their personal yieldedness to the Spirit.

You could say, ah, what's the big deal, but the foundational logic of moving inspiration to the ECF leads to a lot of bad results and conclusions. The apostles had wrong opinions and said terrible things while Christ was still alive.

Peter had to be corrected by Paul on an absolutely essential and vital Gospel issue only a few years after Christ died. It should never, ever be the hermeneutic that people are somehow more inspired just by the time period they live in—that's fundamentally wrong on every level.

Rabbis were not somehow more inspired because they lived closer to the time of the OT prophets. That's just not how that works. And what the logic of that does is, move someone away from personally hearing God through the Word for themselves.

The reason people quote ministers and preachers should be because, they feel the preacher is saying what the Word is saying, they are just reapplying and reinforcing what Scripture already teaches us. Not because they are made into some special status that now regulates and tells us what Scripture must mean.

So... let's get out our shrink ray and put every human being back in his proper place under Scripture—fallible men who, in their honesty, almost all admitted they were capable of making many mistakes. We have the book of John God gave us—we don't need some extra teaching of someone under John who kept special teachings that John withheld from us.

We have the Bible.

 

[GodsGrace]

So believe in Him (John 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11:25,26) excludes trusting in Him? Trusting in self doesn't count.

WHEN did I EVER say what you posted here???

Dan....BELIEVE means TO TRUST....one of the many meanings believe has in the original language of the NT.

And I NEVER said we are to trust ourselves.
This is a strawman you keep bringing up.

To abide in Him is to remain, continue which confirms we have received the Holy Spirit and that God abides in us. (1 John 4:13-15) Believers obey Him out of righteousness (1 John 3:7) and not in order to obtain works righteousness. (Romans 4:4-6)

Jesus said TO ABIDE in Him.
This means Jesus wants us to Abide in Him.

He never said it's automatic.
Please post a verse that DOES state that it's automatic.

It's a directive...
1 John 3:6a
6No one who abides in Him keeps on sinning;


John 15:5-7a
5“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
7“If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you,


Where does it state above that one will ALWAYS abide in Christ?
Verse 7 even uses the word IF.....

Could you PLEASE post a verse that states that God forces us to abide in Him?
thanks.

How can I think verses that I never post don't mean what I think they mean?

Because MMD....as I've said many times now..
you NEVER post scripture.
You put verses in parentheis...do you think members know the NT by heart?
Do you think listing verses is posting scripture?

PLEASE post scripture so we could discuss it.
I could show you that a verse may not mean what you understand it to mean....

which must surely be the case, or we'd agree.

Many will point to verses that have nothing to do with what they believe.

Maybe one day you'll know HOW to post scripture.
Untill then, we're just talking.

What Jesus taught is very simple but works-salvationists make it complicated and burdensome.

Jesus said His COMMANDMENS are not burdensom.
If He speaks about commandments,,,
there must surely be some.
What are they?

Let's try
Matthew 25:34-46
34“Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’
37“Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?
38‘And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?
39‘When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40“The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’


41“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
42for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
43I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’
44“Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’
45“Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’
46“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


Do you consider the above to be commandments or suggestions?
Do you believe they are burdensome?

Then why are you fighting those as myself on this issue?


Maybe you can post some SCRIPTURE that states that it's not important to obey Commands from God...
or something to that effect.