Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[JLB]

I have chosen to serve the Lord starting around 27 years ago and that choice has not wavered through today. I have not lost free will. The big difference is being a new creation in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17) and being made a partaker of the divine nature. (2 Peter 1:4) The change makes the difference.

Amen. That’s a good word. I believe that about you.


Please read a little further.


But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:5-10

• For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure

Please consider that we all must be diligent in these things, to make our election sure.

 

[civic]

I never said we did. Calvin and Luther were bonkers.



You have no idea what you're talking about.

It's like saying they invented looking to the Bible alone.

It was formulated after Calvin by Hodge in the 1800’s

You need to learn your church history

 

[Dizerner]

I have chosen to serve the Lord starting around 27 years ago and that choice has not wavered through today. I have not lost free will.

I'm glad we agree on that.

Please continue to choose to follow Christ, I want to see you again someday.

 

[Dizerner]

It was formulated after Calvin by Hodge in the 1800’s

You need to learn your church history

You don't even acknowledge direct quotes from the fathers, you turn a blind eye and repeat Warren McGrew over and over.

Then you say ECFs should not matter anyway, so you bring a point you deny only because you think it suits you.

So just get out of here with that nonsense, lol.

 

[civic]

You don't even acknowledge direct quotes from the fathers, you turn a blind eye and repeat Warren McGrew over and over.

Then you say ECFs should not matter anyway, so you bring a point you deny only because you think it suits you.

So just get out of here with that nonsense, lol.

PSA did not exist prior to the reformation period.

Like I said church history supports me, not you

 

[Dizerner]

PSA did not exist prior to the reformation period.

Like I said church history supports me, not you

1. You deny church history has importance, then you want to claim it.

2. You deny 100% proof right in your face of ECF quotes that directly show PSA.


You're just not acting rational at this point, it's impossible to deal with a crazy person.

I'm going to have to ignore.

 

[mailmandan]

WHEN did I EVER say what you posted here???

You said Jesus NEVER said to trust in Him yet Jesus said he who believes in Him is not condemned in John 3:18 and believe involves trust.

Dan....BELIEVE means TO TRUST....one of the many meanings believe has in the original language of the NT.

Yet once again, in your last post you said - Jesus NEVER said to trust in Him.

And I NEVER said we are to trust ourselves.
This is a strawman you keep bringing up.

Trusting in works as the means of receiving eternal life and to maintain salvation is trusting in self for accomplishing those works for salvation.

Jesus said TO ABIDE in Him.
This means Jesus wants us to Abide in Him.

Jesus does want us to abide in Him, which is to continue, remain and we see that they 11 remaining disciples did abide in Him, but n9t Judas Iscariot who was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11)

He never said it's automatic.
Please post a verse that DOES state that it's automatic.

It's not an extremely difficult burden either.

It's a directive...
1 John 3:6a
6No one who abides in Him keeps on sinning;

Descriptive of children of God. 1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

John 15:5-7a
5“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
7“If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you,

Two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine. The spiritual and vital connection that bears fruit and the self attached connection which bears no fruit. (John 15:2) Believers like the remaining 11 disciples abide. Make believers like Judas Iscariot do not abide.

In 1 John 4:13, we read - By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

Where does it state above that one will ALWAYS abide in Christ?
Verse 7 even uses the word IF.....

IF is a confirmation.

Could you PLEASE post a verse that states that God forces us to abide in Him?
thanks.

God does not need to force the willing. Abiding is not forced or legalistic for children of God.

Because MMD....as I've said many times now..
you NEVER post scripture.
You put verses in parentheis...do you think members know the NT by heart?
Do you think listing verses is posting scripture?

PLEASE post scripture so we could discuss it.
I could show you that a verse may not mean what you understand it to mean....

which must surely be the case, or we'd agree.

Many will point to verses that have nothing to do with what they believe.

Maybe one day you'll know HOW to post scripture.
Untill then, we're just talking.

Jesus said His COMMANDMENS are not burdensom.
If He speaks about commandments,,,
there must surely be some.
What are they?

His commandments are all summed up in the two great commandments of loving God with all our heart, soul and mind and soul and our neighbor as ourself. (Matthew 22:37-40) People typically think of the 10 commandments and other commands include repent, follow Him, makes disciples, be baptized, forgive others, pray, observe the Lord's Supper.

Let's try
Matthew 25:34-46
34“Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’
37“Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?
38‘And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?
39‘When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40“The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’

41“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
42for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
43I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’
44“Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’
45“Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’
46“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Jesus is dividing the sheep (believers) and the goats (unbelievers). I already covered the sheep and the goats with you in post #514.

Do you consider the above to be commandments or suggestions?
Do you believe they are burdensome?

They are neither suggestions or are burdensome or are the basis or means by which the goats obtained salvation. Those good works are the fruit of salvation in the lives of the goats.

Then why are you fighting those as myself on this issue?

I'm only fighting against salvation by works/works-righteousness and not against obeying God as a Christian.

Maybe you can post some SCRIPTURE that states that it's not important to obey Commands from God...
or something to that effect.

Strawman argument. Just because we are not saved based on the merits of obeying all the commands from God (nobody except Jesus Christ has flawlessly obeyed them and only He is without sin) doesn't mean it's not unimportant to obey God. Imperfect obedience cannot save you. Only Jesus Christ can save you when you place your faith in Him for salvation.

 

[mailmandan]

Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. John 5:24

We have eternal life the moment we believe, we will never lose this divine life. WE will remain justified and never revert back to condemnation, We have permanently passed from death unto life.

That's what eternal life is.

Salvation is not probation.
Eternal life is not temporary life.
Jesus is the door. He is not a revolving door.

Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. ALL of them.Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress its certainty.

 

[dwight92070]

Even though this shallow ground hearer in Luke 8:13 is said to have "believed," yet he is never said to have been "saved." How do we know that the shallow ground hearer was never actually "saved"? Allow me to explain why:

First, his heart condition is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer in the 4th soil, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was not "good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. Such soil represents a sinner not properly prepared in heart. People who "believe" and "rejoice" at the preaching of the gospel without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" in themselves, do not experience real salvation.

*IN CONTRAST TO Mark 4:8 - But other seed fell on good ground and yielded a crop that sprang up, increased and produced: some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some a hundred. Luke 8:15 says, But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with perseverance. So the rocky soil represents a person not properly prepared in heart so the seed planted ends up with a lack of "root" (lack of being firmly planted, or established) and good soil represents a person properly prepared in heart who having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keeps it and bears fruit with perseverance.

*Unlike saving belief, temporary, shallow belief is not rooted in a regenerate heart. How can no depth of earth, no root, no moisture, no fruit, represent saving belief? Also the same Greek word for believe "pisteuo" is used in James 2:19, in which we read that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they are not saved either.

John has portrayed people who "believe" (at least to some extent) but are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of firmly rooted consummated belief resulting in salvation." As we see in John 2:23-25, in which their belief was superficial in nature and Jesus would not entrust/commit Himself to them.

Also, in John 8:31-59, where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in. We can see at best, these Jews believed in Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) of Jesus, yet upon gaining further knowledge about Jesus through His words, we see they did not truly "believe unto salvation" and become children of God (John 1:12; 3:18) but were instead, children of the devil.

The demons believe there is one God but they don't believe in God, i.e. they don't put their faith in Him. Believing in God, or faith in God IS the ONLY Biblical requirement to be saved. So, whether on rocky soil, thorny soil, or good soil - they all believed. The only "soil" that did not believe is the one beside the road. In fact, even those who were "good soil" are not said to be "saved" either, even though we know they were.

 

[Red Baker]

I'm done here, I just wanted to make the case for Scriptures over man made religious philosophies of this world, in the same way Jesus and Paul made the same arguments against the man-made religious doctrines and traditions of the same religious system of their time.

Well now, I think you are done because you have exhausted your bible knowledge. I understand folks like you very well, since I have debated SDA, (which you embraced much what they believe and teach) and other work driven ministries who seek God's approval based upon their man made doctrines, for many years, and they all end up basically saying what you are now saying. Your so-called bible religion is basically what they teach when undressed of all of the false humility seen in your assumed post.

 

[Red Baker]

@Dizerner

Do you ascribe to Eternal Justification?

Are people born sheep?

1) Yes
2) Yes, by nature "only" are they children of wrath, but not so in God's election of grace through/in Jesus Christ.

2 Timothy 1:9​

“Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,”

 

[Dizerner]

1) Yes
2) Yes, by nature "only" are they children of wrath, but not so in God's election of grace through/in Jesus Christ.

Ok, you are what other people would call a "Hyper Calvinist."

In a sense I respect it as the only logical form of Calvinism, although a smaller branch of it.

 

[Red Baker]

@Dizerner

Ok, you are what other people would call a "Hyper Calvinist."

In a sense I respect it as the only logical form of Calvinism, although a smaller branch of it.

You are 100% correct on both points.

As a side note, I saw where you disagreed with Studyman on.... all creatures of God are good for food if received with thanksgiving ~ and I gave you a agreement on what you said. He responded back to you, and so far you have not answered his post, which I would that you do, since truth is on your side and it would be easy to do so. If you do not then I want to. Is that okay with you?

 

[Red Baker]

@dwight92070

or faith in God IS the ONLY Biblical requirement to be saved.

Faith is not a requirement to be born again, that would be in anyone's terminology definition of WORKS..."requirement=works", or, if not so, words have no meaning.

Faith, with works is the clearest evidence of one already born of God, it is not the means thereof. Listen carefully to John's words:

1st John 5:1​

“Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.”

Faith and love the two greatest evidences of one born of God.

 

[synergy]

Confession is a confirmation of faith (which is why we will be saved if we confess) and not a work for salvation that follows believing unto righteousness.

Depends what you mean by "work". Actions are required on our part as in confessing and believing. So our salvation is undeniably synergistic. It is not passive.

Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.

The sequence makes no difference to me. They still need actions on our part. A passive faith is dead.

1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing Jesus as Lord upon conversion and after. Hence, actively confess and believe is ongoing. Now this confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep, personal conviction from the heart that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior.

1 Cor 12:3 is talking about gifts of tongues. You're now promoting Pentecostalism. Sorry, I'm not into that branch of Christianity that says that only those who speak in tongues are saved.

Salvations plural? I do focus on verses that talk about salvation and justification. Ephesians 2:8 and Romans 5:1 are good places to start.

Those verses are also perfectly in line with the salvation and justification requirements of good works. See James 2:14,21-26.

We still show our faith by our works. (James 2:18) Show, not establish. Big difference. The absence of evidence can be construed as evidence of absence.

You're mistaken if you think that James is promoting showmanship here.

Says (key word) he has faith and does not have works (to evidence his claim). What kind of faith is that? Empty profession of faith/dead faith. Something that is dead cannot produce anything.

It's dead because it is not genuine faith but a bare profession of faith. It has no good works because it's dead. You have it backwards. You have the tail wagging the dog. The cart before the horse. Faith is established first when we are made alive together with Christ and saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:5-9) and good works follow after having been created in ChristJesus for good works. (Ephesians 2:10)

You keep forgetting that repent, believe, and confess are action verbs. Action is required for salvation. There's no way around that.

 

[synergy]

@dwight92070

Faith is not a requirement to be born again, that would be in anyone's terminology definition of WORKS..."requirement=works", or, if not so, words have no meaning.

Faith, with works is the clearest evidence of one already born of God, it is not the means thereof. Listen carefully to John's words:

1st John 5:1​

“Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.”

Faith and love the two greatest evidences of one born of God.

Huh? So you can be born again (spiritually alive) but still faithless (still dead in your sins)? Tell us more about this Living Dead scenario you're promoting.

 

[Dizerner]

If you do not then I want to. Is that okay with you?

Go for it, it's all yours.

 

[Red Baker]

@synergy

Huh? So you can be born again (spiritually alive) but still faithless (still dead in your sins)? Tell us more about this Living Dead scenario you're promoting.

No different than a child being born into this world, not knowing even who their parents are, as a matter of fact, they know not one thing other than they greatly desire to be feed ~ and from there, they begin to grow in knowledge, etc.

I'm going to make a post on James 2:14, 21-26 that you keep making references to ~ sometime today I should be finish.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

A couple of decades ago People use to have bummer stickers saying "God is my co-pilot". I would think if God is Your Co-Pilot, You Should Switch Seats..

never thought of it this way. But spot on!! I will have to remember this

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Paul writes that there is One Faith.

(Eph 4:5) One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism,

It's back to the drawing board for all those who wish to override what Paul clearly writes.

yes

there is one faith that saves. Just like there is one baptism that saves But there are many baptisms (johns baptism, Water Baptism, Spirit Baptism, Baptism in fire etc etc)

everyone in this room agrees. no one here thinks there are multiple faiths that people can have to get to heave (at least I hope not)

but in reality, there are many faiths

the Jews had one faith. that faith rejected Christ

The Muslims have a faith. that faith rejects God

Sadly. Many churches have faith. But that faith rejects the gospel.

The faith in James that he is speaking about. Is one of those other faiths. It can not save. It will not save, and unless repented of. The person who has it will be lost.