Excellent Discussion on OSAS
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GodsGrace
Active Member
JLB,,,,
do you have any idea how many times I've posted the above to @Eternally-Grateful ....
And also to another member here.
I find Jesus' words to be simple to understand.
They have to be because He spoke to simple persons that had to understand what He meant.
This is one of the reasons He used parables...
They could be adapted by the hearer to their personal situation (the message being the same of course),
and they were easier to remember and to relay to others...as we would use examples today.
Eternally-Grateful does not do this...but the other member just twists everything Jesus said to suit his needs.
This is disconcerting, to say the least.
synergy
Active Member
You just missed it by 1. Sorry.
Prize goes to @JLB!
This Discussion is turning out to be true to its title: "Excellent Discussion on OSAS".
I think we eliminated that Heresy for good.
There will be Nay Sayers but they would have to argue against the Greek NT, the Italian NT, and the NKJV.
They stand no chance against that Threesome.
GodsGrace
Active Member
Buona notte to you too!
(the beat goes on).
"21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name [name drop], cast out demons in Your name[name drop], and done many wonders in Your name[name drop]?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’"
Jesus is VERY clear here. They claimed to know Him because of the three name drops above. Did we not prophesy in Your name? Jesus answer...um...NO. Did we not cast out demons in Your name? Jesus answer... um...NO. Did we not do many wonders in Your name? Jesus answer... um...NO. Jesus is telling them that it wasn't in His name because... HE NEVER KNEW THEM. Not only that, He calls them sinners. (Those who practice lawlessness.) If you follow the Law, you do not sin. If you do not follow the Law, you sin. (Miss the standard, which is the law.) If you practice lawlessness, you are a slave of sin still, and were never saved, hence Jesus says, I never knew you. Not one time they did ANYTHING in His name, did Jesus know them. NEVER. So while they come out claiming to know Him because of what they did, He turns around and tells them "I never knew you". I don't know if it is possible for Jesus to be more clear. He told them to depart because He never knew them, and they were sinners, those who practice (live for only) lawlessness/sin.
That is all it is saying. Jesus never knew them. Depart because you do not know Jesus because you are sinners/those who practice lawlessness. The reason Jesus never knew them is because they never ceased being those who practice lawlessness.
So now it is salvation by works. Got it. Support with scripture, not your opinions. (I can twist things too...)
Do you have any idea what name dropping is? They are trying to impress themselves upon Jesus, perhaps being arminians believing that they save themselves. Look at what we did, and we did it in your name!!! Pat us on the head, and let us in already. We did it. Who knows what else is going on in their minds? Perhaps only the dripping pride in their words. Perhaps they realize they are empty inside and this is a hail Mary? (No, I'm not saying they are Catholics.)
What is Jesus point in the passage? Name dropping gets you nowhere. Anyone can say Lord, Lord, but not everyone means it. Not everyone has actually made Jesus Lord and followed Him. Instead, they continue in sin believing that they can name drop themselves into heaven. Boot lickers.
It is harder then it sounds, but Lordship salvation, balanced with the parts John MacArthur didn't mention due to the purpose of him writing "The Gospel According to Jesus" in the first place, is the proper view. The gate is narrow. We can't take anything with us, including self. To come to Christ is to crucify self. No longer living to self, but living to Christ. The Lord, Lord is the cry of the one wholely surrendered. The situation Jesus presented is an insult to Him. Hence He is very explicit. You claim to know Him, and to have done all these things in His name as a sign of salvation, as a sign supporting "Lord, Lord"... well.. I never knew you. Get out you sinners. (you who practice lawlessness.)
I think your issue is you have Hebrews stating that what you said is God putting His only Son to open shame and that God will not do it. When you have that, next to what you are saying, that means that you are not understanding something correctly. We are born dead, with a sin nature inherited from Adam. Our birth is the beginning of being one of the two prodigal sons. Either elect, who will return to God and be saved, or not elect. We are not born saved, we are born sinners, that is spiritually dead. This is how you must allow scripture as a whole to educate your understanding. This is a parable. It is not a literal truth/story, but holds a spiritual truth within, which you must allow to be molded by spiritual truth, such as Hebrews.
Perhaps when you come to understand I John 1. The we is his audience. John is writing to believers, those he has taught. If believers confess their sins, God will forgive.
For Hebrews 6:
"4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 [c]if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
Hebrews 2:
"Therefore we must give [a]the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away. 2 For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, 3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, 4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts[c] of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?
Hebrews 12:
"14 Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: 15 looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled; 16 lest there be any fornicator or [f]profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright. 17 For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears."
That last one is to say that Esau sold his inheritance, his birthright, and when he wanted to inherit it, he was rejected because there was no place for repentance for him, though he sought for one diligently with tears. This speaks to how God treated Esau for selling the inheritance God gave him by Esau being first born. God rejected him. God would not forgive him. God would give him no place to repent of what he had done.
If you could lose your salvation, you can never get it back. God will reject you. However, Hebrews 6 speaks to those who have come face to face with the reality of the gospel as non-believers, and when it came to accepting, having received the truth, they rejected and walked away. If Jesus sacrifice is not enough for them, then there is no more sacrifice.
Hebrews 10
"26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries."
It is one thing to believe, it is another to have that penetrate the heart, lay our roots, and make the heart home. Jesus states they have no foundation, no roots. They are the ones who came to hear Jesus in John 6, listened, heard what he had to say, could not accept what He said, and left. What did Jesus say about salvation here?
"43 Jesus therefore answered and said to them, [h]“Do not murmur among yourselves. 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day."
Yet there was a crowd of people who came to Jesus. Jesus point is, they weren't drawn by the Father, so they did not come to Him to be saved. They had other motives. Their reaction to what He said proved this. In the end only the 12 stayed, but Jesus said that one was a devil. Not that one would become a devil, but was a devil. And, one finds that Judas ALWAYS had ulterior motives the whole time he was with Jesus. He was never, saved. He may have believed what Jesus said, but he was never... saved. He was solely there to betray Jesus, with God in ages past having cursed the day Judas was born.
Dizerner
Active Member
The problem with this is, "I never knew you" was a recorded Rabbinical formula of excommunication preserved for us in the Babylonian Talmud. The point of this idiom was to say, "Because of what you have done, it is now as if I never knew you," and not to be taken hyper literally in this case. I don't think this alone establishes whether these at one time did the will of God.
Richard
Active Member
I'll vote vote for you.
They are simple.
They were simple when the Pharisee’s heard them.
The Pharisee’s had the same stronghold as Calvinist’s do today.
They believe they didn’t need to hear what Jesus had to say, because they believe they were chosen for salvation because they were Abraham’s natural offspring.
The believed because they were the elect, they were blessed; already saved.
Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, ‘You will be made free’?” John 8:31-33
They became like the idols they created from adding their own words to God’s word.
Idols have eyes but do not see.
Idols have ears but do not hear.
When we create God in our own image we are making an idol out of self.
Their idols are silver and gold,
The work of men’s hands.
They have mouths, but they do not speak;
Eyes they have, but they do not see;
They have ears, but they do not hear;
Noses they have, but they do not smell;
Psalms 115:4-6
That’s what you are up against, people who have closed they eyes to the truth because they have believed the lie.
Go ahead Eve and disobey God, you shall surely not die. Genesis 3:4 OSAS
GodsGrace
Active Member
Get back to work!And all 1’s
@Studyman
That being said, eating pork under the NT is acceptable since those dietaries laws were "only for Israel" and only until Christ's death and resurrections, and then many of Israel's ordinances and laws perish, or were abolished, with the exception of the Royal law contained in the Ten commandments, they are eternal, for those are spiritual, holy, and good for men's peace, joy and happiness, as a source of righteous living pleasing to God, NOT to seek legal justification from, but as a rule of law to live by, since there are no laws higher, more godly than God's laws to instruct our walk and ruling our spirits than God's law contained, or summed up in the Ten given by Moses.
And then they ALL ENDED! Why do you insist on carrying on the Jews' Rellgion over Jesus Christ's TRUE RELIGION? Which he was the type of many of Jews' carnal ordinances.
Judaism is a monotheistic religion form into a religion mainly with their great law giver Moses, who went between them and God to instruct them in their early beginning as a nation. It emphasizes the importance of Torah (the first five books of the Hebrew Bible), prayer, and ethical conduct. Judaism is not a missionary religion, they were to be separate from other nation and not to go unto them lest they learned their ways. The very elect among them ruled their life on living in accordance with God's will and laws, as given by Moses.
Bottom line, they were a type of the TRUE ISRAEL OF GOD. Israel's laws given to them by Moses pointed to the seed promised by God in Genesis 3:15, and many of their laws were abolished at Christ's death and resurrection, in particular their dietary laws were to be abolished, since they were a type of the UNCLEAN nations around them, but ONCE God revealed his purpose to visit the Gentiles to take out of them a people for his name sake, those dietary laws were done away with as well for all under the NT, which you refuse to let go of.
I'm coming back to finish since this is too long already.
We cannot because it is not recorded, besides he would not the sheep, that we can talk about, if you desire to do so.
There you go again, after warning you that that is very deceitful on your part by presenting drinking blood WITH eating pork, etc. I have never even hinted that drinking blood, or eating blood by not fully cooking your meats is acceptable before God, never, not once.
That being said, eating pork under the NT is acceptable since those dietaries laws were "only for Israel" and only until Christ's death and resurrections, and then many of Israel's ordinances and laws perish, or were abolished, with the exception of the Royal law contained in the Ten commandments, they are eternal, for those are spiritual, holy, and good for men's peace, joy and happiness, as a source of righteous living pleasing to God, NOT to seek legal justification from, but as a rule of law to live by, since there are no laws higher, more godly than God's laws to instruct our walk and ruling our spirits than God's law contained, or summed up in the Ten given by Moses.
Studyman, not eating pork is not a righteous act of faith, proven by Acts 10 ~living by the word of God OVERALL is an act of living by faith! The NT will open up the OT scriptures for us, if we follow the word of God and not a temporary religion called Judaism, the rellgion of the Jews, that served its purpose UNTIL the time of God's reformation recorded for us in Hebrews. You said: "I didn't understand why God created such righteousness"....and you still do not know, listen to the word of God:
Hebrews 9:10
“Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.”And then they ALL ENDED! Why do you insist on carrying on the Jews' Rellgion over Jesus Christ's TRUE RELIGION? Which he was the type of many of Jews' carnal ordinances.
It is a religion that ONLY the children of Abraham had, different from all other nations. Time and space will not allow us to go into depth, but can be summed up in a few words:
Galatians 1:14
“And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.”Judaism is a monotheistic religion form into a religion mainly with their great law giver Moses, who went between them and God to instruct them in their early beginning as a nation. It emphasizes the importance of Torah (the first five books of the Hebrew Bible), prayer, and ethical conduct. Judaism is not a missionary religion, they were to be separate from other nation and not to go unto them lest they learned their ways. The very elect among them ruled their life on living in accordance with God's will and laws, as given by Moses.
Bottom line, they were a type of the TRUE ISRAEL OF GOD. Israel's laws given to them by Moses pointed to the seed promised by God in Genesis 3:15, and many of their laws were abolished at Christ's death and resurrection, in particular their dietary laws were to be abolished, since they were a type of the UNCLEAN nations around them, but ONCE God revealed his purpose to visit the Gentiles to take out of them a people for his name sake, those dietary laws were done away with as well for all under the NT, which you refuse to let go of.
I'm coming back to finish since this is too long already.
Dizerner
Active Member
So in conclusion, let us all just listen to God's Word:
Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you
an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today,"
lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
For we have become partakers of Christ
only if we hold the beginning of our confidence
steadfast to the end...
(Heb. 3:12-14)
Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you
an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today,"
lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
For we have become partakers of Christ
only if we hold the beginning of our confidence
steadfast to the end...
(Heb. 3:12-14)
Lets look at what God's word is telling us.
Here, the application of the Psalm is made explicit. The Israelites' lack of trust caused them to fall away from God, and this resulted in discipline. The author of Hebrews is warning the Jewish Christians who read these words not to make the same mistake.
It's especially important to see the full context of this verse, since it uses two particular Greek words, apistias and apostēnai. These are translated in the ESV as "unbelieving" and "fall away," respectively. Apostēnai is the word from which we get the term "apostasty," which means a rebellion or defiance of authority. It is most frequently used to describe those who completely leave the Christian faith. However, like most such terms, there are varied levels and meanings of "falling away." In this case, the meaning is that of sin and faithlessness, not open rejection of God.
Once again, the context makes it clear that salvation is not at stake. The Promised Land is not a metaphor for heaven—Israel's rescue from Egypt is the symbol of salvation. God's wrath against the Jewish people in the wilderness was not to send them back to Egypt (symbolizing a return to an un-saved state). Rather, it was to deny them the blessings of the promised inheritance. Parts of chapter 4 will further support the idea that the author is speaking of sin in the life of a saved believer, not the potential loss of salvation.
That's the conclusion the bible is teaching us. Bibleref
What does Hebrews 3:12-14 mean?
Prior verses quoted from Psalm 95, which warns Israel not to repeat their mistakes in the wilderness. There, Israel lost faith in God. They gave in to fear, and that led to disobedience and stubbornness. They did not "hold fast," and as a result, that generation was not allowed to enter into the Promised Land. God did not send Israel back into slavery in Egypt, but He disciplined the people for their lack of faith.Here, the application of the Psalm is made explicit. The Israelites' lack of trust caused them to fall away from God, and this resulted in discipline. The author of Hebrews is warning the Jewish Christians who read these words not to make the same mistake.
It's especially important to see the full context of this verse, since it uses two particular Greek words, apistias and apostēnai. These are translated in the ESV as "unbelieving" and "fall away," respectively. Apostēnai is the word from which we get the term "apostasty," which means a rebellion or defiance of authority. It is most frequently used to describe those who completely leave the Christian faith. However, like most such terms, there are varied levels and meanings of "falling away." In this case, the meaning is that of sin and faithlessness, not open rejection of God.
Once again, the context makes it clear that salvation is not at stake. The Promised Land is not a metaphor for heaven—Israel's rescue from Egypt is the symbol of salvation. God's wrath against the Jewish people in the wilderness was not to send them back to Egypt (symbolizing a return to an un-saved state). Rather, it was to deny them the blessings of the promised inheritance. Parts of chapter 4 will further support the idea that the author is speaking of sin in the life of a saved believer, not the potential loss of salvation.
That's the conclusion the bible is teaching us. Bibleref
@Studyman
The salvation that Paul desired for the Jews that had a zeal for God was practical in nature, (for true biblical knowledge) not legal, since Paul would never pray to add to the number of the elect, but would desire and pray for those who had a zeal, yet lack true knowledge of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
I'm coming back after I make a short trip to finish.
The Jews' rellgion deteriorated into a religion of seeking salvation from sin and condemnation through their own works of righteousness and NOT THROUGH CHRIST ALONE, but like what Christianity has fallen into to and folks like you being a part of this deterioration.
Even the regenerate children of God, which I'm convinced these are that Paul is mentioning here in Romans 10:1-4, even they had a hard time of seeking their free justification through Christ alone without laboring to add their own works into what Christ had already fulfilled and secured for his own. We deal with such folks everyday on forums, zealous believers just cannot figure free justification without their own work being added to what Christ has secured for God's elect acting as their surety.
The salvation that Paul desired for the Jews that had a zeal for God was practical in nature, (for true biblical knowledge) not legal, since Paul would never pray to add to the number of the elect, but would desire and pray for those who had a zeal, yet lack true knowledge of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
I just explain this above.
These are the very ones that hindered God's children that lack knowledge. It is not easy to separate false professor from men and women who are just in error, yet love and fear God and have a zeal for him, yet have not fully grasp the full understanding of free grace without our participation in our salvation from sin and condemnation.
Just explain above. Btw, I have never called "Judaism" the practice of following and promoting God's Laws." As far as what the Jew's rellgion deteriorated INTO ~ Even among the Jews' religion, there were certain elect that lived differently than the Pharisees did. The same is true of Christianity, we do not thrown out the baby with the dirty water, God has his people in Christianity even though it is getting more corrupt by the day, still God's people are among them.
I'm coming back after I make a short trip to finish.
Something to think about the dietary laws. In those days not eating pork could save your life as they had no refrigeration and pork goes bad fast. I think God was looking out for them not giving them a list of does and don'ts.
Raw pork should never be left unrefrigerated
Raw pork should never be left unrefrigerated for any length of time. Keep it in the refrigerator right up until you're ready to cook it to prevent the growth of harmful bacteria and to reduce the risk of cross-contamination. Additionally, never leave frozen raw pork on the counter to thaw. Raw pork may contain germs that can cause illness or death if not refrigerated and cooked properly.
Trichinosis is a parasitic infection caused by eating pork that has gone bad. It contains the Trichinella spiralis parasite.
Eternally-Grateful
Active Member
Amen! As Greek scholar AT Robertson explained - "It is the spurious claim to faith that James here condemns."
James 2 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org
James 2, Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament, Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament is a rich resource for understanding Scripture, delving into original language and cultural nuances.www.studylight.org
This is not hard to understand. It's just hard for works-salvationists to ACCEPT.
Verse 14
What doth it profit? (τ οφελοσ
. Rhetorical question, almost of impatience. Old word from οφελλω, to increase, in N.T. only here, verse James 2:16 (NAS)If a man say (εαν λεγη τις). Condition of third class with εαν and the present active subjunctive of λεγω, "if one keep on saying."
He hath faith (πιστιν εχειν). Infinitive in indirect assertion after λεγη.
But have not works (εργα δε μη εχη). Third-class condition continued, "but keeps on not having (μη and present active subjunctive εχη) works." It is the spurious claim to faith that James here condemns.
Can that faith save him? (μη δυνατα η πιστις σωσα αυτον
. Negative answer expected (μη). Effective aorist active infinitive σωσα (from σωζω). The article η here is almost demonstrative in force as it is in origin, referring to the claim of faith without works just made.It does not get any more clear than this. Good find
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