Excellent Discussion on OSAS

The teaching of Christ certainly teaches otherwise.

  • But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
you also made the same mistake

He said LIT HIM BE TO YOU LIKE

He did not he will be to God like.

he lost fellowship and when he repented (and he did ) he was restored.
His sheep who wander away and become lost must repent and return.
if they want restored to fellowship yes
If they don’t they will be a sinner; a heathen and tax collector.
No. he did not say they are. he said let them be TO YOU LIKE


Do you believe the lost need salvation?
Yes.

I also believe the saved are saved.. and like any child. needs help to grow into productive adults.
 
you also made the same mistake

He said LIT HIM BE TO YOU LIKE

He did not he will be to God like.

he lost fellowship and when he repented (and he did ) he was restored.

There is no mistake, there is only reading and believing what Jesus said.


  • But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

His sheep who wander away and become lost must repent and return.


My question to you is this.


Does a person who is lost need salvation?
 
No. he did not say they are. he said let them be TO YOU LIKE
Jesus called His sheep, who wandered away and became lost, a sinner.


I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:7


The 99 remained justified.

The one became lost; marked as a sinner; no longer justified.
 
Yes those participles imply he is talking about believers. There is no way to be a partaker of the Holy Spirit apart from Him woking and living in you.
Let me know once you are finished with your study on Hebrews 6 brother.

Johann.
 
There is no mistake, there is only reading and believing what Jesus said.


  • But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
I did read what Paul said

  • But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
His sheep who wander away and become lost must repent and return.


My question to you is this.


Does a person who is lost need salvation?
if he was lost he needs salvation.

if he was not lost. He needed chastened and corrected.

Again, we have an example in 1 cor with a man who was sleeping with his fathers wife..
 
Lost is the word that Jesus uses.
15 ;“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

the word lost was not used.
 
Jesus called His sheep, who wandered away and became lost, a sinner.
Jesus said he will never leave nor forsake us.

where can you go where Jesus is not there?

I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:7


The 99 remained justified.

The one became lost; marked as a sinner; no longer justified.
again, the word lost is not there

a sinner is lost.. when one comes to christ, there is joy in heaven, over those who are already found..
 
If you believe His sheep who become lost need salvation,
I do not believe a saved person can become lost.

I know Israel were called his sheep and many of them were lost. and if they came to god. there was great joy.

then it’s clear, they no longer have the salvation they once had.
no it is not clear at all. they were already lost.

you need to learn to make the bible interpret itself and not take small parts out of context.
 
@Studyman, no problem with me if you think you should avoid pork for whatever reason, it matter not to me, yet, you cannot teach it as a commandment to be avoided by other believers, that's adding your commandments to the scriptures and we will not sit idley by and allow you to do so.

Can you show me where I "ADDED" a commandment to the Scriptures? I am happy to be corrected for doing so if I did, but it seems righteous according to God's Word that when you make such an accusation against someone, you should provide something more than your mouth as evidence.

I look forward to your evidence.

There you go again, being deceitful. Of course God's word is NOT a seducing spirit!
Why would you even ask taht unless you do so just to confuse the reader, which most likely you failed?

I bet that there are quite a few readers on this forum who are not confused at all.

1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding "to abstain from meats", "which God hath created to be received" with thanksgiving "of them which believe and know the truth". 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

Why don't you answer these 2 questions, and show everyone on this forum that you are not confused.

#1. When Paul told the Gentile converts in Acts 15, "But that we write unto them, that they abstain from from things strangled, and from blood", was he promoting God's instruction in righteousness, or his own "personal convictions?"

#2. And if he was promoting God's instruction in righteousness, which is the exact same thing that I am promoting, why are you trying to paint me as "giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;" but not Paul?

Now, you tell me WHAT part of 1st Timothy 4:1,2 I'm I missing?

You are missing that the spirt which is "Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth", is NOT GOD'S Spirit, but "seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

While the Spirit that created the instruction in righteousness that I'm speaking to, that Jesus said for me to "Live by". "This is the law of the beasts, and of the fowl, and of every living creature that moveth in the waters, and of every creature that creepeth upon the earth: To make a difference between the unclean and the clean, and between the beast that may be eaten and the beast that may not be eaten.

Is the Spirit of God.

I don't think you are confused, I think you just don't care.


You are one confused person, and truly not even a good debater.

Okay but what dos this have to do with what we are discussing? Nothing.

It has everything to do with it. Someone was "forbidding to marry, and abstaining from meats that God created to be received with thanksgiving". It wasn't God or God's Spirit or the Christ "of the bible" or the Prophets, or the Apostles that were engaged in this practice. It was a deceiving spirit whose conscious was seared that was promoting doctrines of devils, not God.

God clearly shows you, in terms that my 10 years old grandchild can understand, what "meats" God created to be received with thanksgiving, and what "meats" were unclean, and that God commanded His people to abstain from.

Jesus said these could be found if we Seek First the Kingdom of God, (not the traditions of man) and "HIS" Righteousness.

You would find the same thing as anyone who submitted themselves as "Doers" of the Christ's Sayings, and not hearers only.
 
What doth it profit? (ti ophelos̱). Rhetorical question, almost of impatience. Old word from ophellō, to increase, in N.T. only here, Jas_2:16; 1Co_15:32. “Ti ophelos was a common expression in the vivacious style of a moral diatribe” (Ropes).
If a man say (ean legēi tis). Condition of third class with ean and the present active subjunctive of legō, “if one keep on saying.”
He hath faith (pistin echein). Infinitive in indirect assertion after legēi.
But have not works (erga de mē echēi). Third-class condition continued, “but keeps on not having (mē and present active subjunctive echēi) works.” It is the spurious claim to faith that James here condemns.
Can that faith save him? (mē dunatai hē pistis sōsai autoṉ). Negative answer expected (mē). Effective aorist active infinitive sōsai (from sōzō). The article hē here is almost demonstrative in force as it is in origin, referring to the claim of faith without works just made.
Robertson


1) If one should say that he has faith, but do no good works or produce no fruit to confirm it, would "that kind" of faith, unworking faith, be the kind of faith that saves? Eph_2:8-10. The answer is "no" and that true faith will manifest itself in some type of good work. The good work does not save, but genuine faith in Jesus Christ does initiate desires for and sustain one in deeds of fruitful service to Jesus Christ.

2) The original language indicates a sense of almost disgust on James' part. It is ironic for one to say or keep on saying, or persistently say, that he has faith and is saved if he has no works. His claims demonstrate that his faith is spurious if the claims are not accompanied by some fruit.

That kind of faith which talks loudly, but works not at all, appears to be a farcical faith or claim of a kind of faith which the claimant does not possess, Joh_15:14.
Let's see if the Greek allows for the following words: "that", "that kind of", "the kind of", "that kind", or "claim of a kind of" that form the basis of Robertson's comments above.

What raised my suspicion is that the NKJV version of James 2:14 does not possess any of those kinds of phrases, pun intended.

(James 2:14) What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

Here is the Greek for James 2:14:

(James 2:14) Τί τὸ ὄφελος, ἀδελφοί μου, ἐὰν πίστιν λέγῃ τις ἔχειν, ἔργα δὲ μὴ ἔχῃ; μὴ δύναται ἡ πίστις σῶσαι αὐτόν;

Notice 4 things about that Greek verse:
  1. The Greek word for "that" is "αυτή". It is nowhere in the Greek. This proves that the NKJV is correct in its translation.
  2. "μὴ δύναται ἡ πίστις σῶσαι αὐτόν" literally translates to "not able the faith saves him?" There is no "that" in the translation.
  3. "ἡ πίστις" is "the Faith", not "that Faith".
  4. to be "that faith" in the Greek, you would have to say "αυτή ἡ πίστις". It is not there.
Many people cornered with these facts will say it doesn't matter, that their presuppositions still hold. That's hilarious!!! :LOL::LOL:
Nowhere does Scripture teach or imply that good works save, in either the initial justification or eternal salvation sense.
Rather, Scripture affirms a consistent order:
Grace → Faith → Salvation → Good Works (as fruit)
Any reversal of this order leads to theological error or contradiction of the Gospel.

J.
All your comments above need to be reworked to come into conformity with what James 2 truly says in the Greek Language.

CC: @mailmandan @Eternally-Grateful
 
Last edited:
“For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:”

This is the exact same tactic used by the preacher in the garden with Eve.

Gen. 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

And of a truth it is written:

Gen. 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest "freely eat":

I Love Christ's Spirit so much for revealing to me how the deceiver tricks people. First, it "professes to know God", "Hath God not said". then it quotes "Some" of God's Word, and says, "See there!", as if this one sentence from God makes void and irrelevant every other Word that God Spoke.

This is why, in my view, Jesus said to "Live by" EVERY WORD of God, and not just the Words that can be twisted to promote satan's philosophy, or justify lawless behavior.

I know Red will not be persuaded, and my discussion with him is not even about him, but the religious philosophy he is promoting to others, which he has the right to do. And if he fell in a pit, I would help him out, without hesitation. But consider the English translation of this sentence, in practical terms.

"16" For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

What's the difference between that sentence, and the following;

"16" And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

When a man reads Every Words God had written for them, did God create "every" creature to be freely eaten of"

Did God create "every" tree in the garden to be freely eaten of?

Post Calvary ~laws under the New Covenant permits us to eat all things If it be receded with thanksgiving. It is NOT what goes in a man that defiles him, but what comes form his heart. Mark 7

Not according to the Spirit of Christ on the Apostles in Acts 15. They clearly taught the Gentiles they are NOT Permitted to "Eat all things". That there were "some things" they were to "Abstain from eating". And it was the same things that God instructed His People in the Law and Prophets to "Abstain" from eating. So you are promoting the imaginations of your own heart, in your preaching, not from the mouth of God. This is why I am here arguing with you.

And Jesus proved in Mark 7, that eating Bread without first washing your hands a certain way, was not transgressing a Law of God and does not defile a man. This is because rebellion, disobedience, disrespect and disbelief in God's instruction, come from within, not from without, and this defiles the man. Here, let the Jesus "of the bible" Himself, tell you.

Matt.15: 18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. 19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: 20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Again, I don't care what you eat, but I do care when you promote falsehoods about God's Word to others. And I am instructed to warn the brethren to beware, as Paul teaches;

Col. 2: 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition "of men", after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
 
Let's see if the Greek allows for the following words: "that", "that kind of", "the kind of", "that kind", or "claim of a kind of" that form the basis of Robertson's comments above.

What raised my suspicion is that the NKJV version of James 2:24 does not possess any of those kinds of phrases, pun intended.

(James 2:14) What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

Here is the Greek for James 2:14:

(James 2:14) Τί τὸ ὄφελος, ἀδελφοί μου, ἐὰν πίστιν λέγῃ τις ἔχειν, ἔργα δὲ μὴ ἔχῃ; μὴ δύναται ἡ πίστις σῶσαι αὐτόν;

Notice 4 things about that Greek verse:
  1. The Greek word for "that" is "αυτή". It is nowhere in the Greek.
  2. "μὴ δύναται ἡ πίστις σῶσαι αὐτόν" literally translates to "not able the faith saves him?" There is no "that" in the translation.
  3. "ἡ πίστις" is "the Faith", not "that Faith".
  4. to be "that faith" in the Greek, you would have to say "αυτή ἡ πίστις". It is not there.

Many people cornered with these facts will say it doesn't matter, their presuppositions still hold. That's hilarious!!

All your comments above need to be reworked to come into conformity with what James 2 truly says in the Greek Language.

CC: @mailmandan @Eternally-Grateful

Also, I might add that James like Paul teach the principle of faith that scripture calls “the obedience of faith”.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26

This principle (law) of faith contextually frames the entire book of Romans.

Obedience of faith is mentioned in the first chapter and closing chapter to emphasize what Paul had in mind when he wrote this masterpiece letter to the Church in Rome.


James is teaching this same principle.


Here’s how he starts to cultivate our understanding of this principal (law) of faith.


Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. James 2:17

So we see the idea that faith alone is unscriptural.


He then uses the example of Abraham to what he has in mind when he uses the word “works”.


Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
James 2:21


We know the “work” Abraham did wasn’t the works of the law because that didn’t come for another 430 years.

The “work” Abraham did wasn’t to obey the word from God, by which he received faith.


This is the principle of faith.

Faith must have the corresponding action of obedience otherwise faith remains dormant, “dead”, inactive and unable to produce the result God intended when He speaks to us.

Like a body without a spirit so also is faith without the corresponding action”work” of obedience is dead.


For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26


As you can see there is more to this principle of faith but this post is already too long.
 
Also, I might add that James like Paul teach the principle of faith that scripture calls “the obedience of faith”.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26

This principle (law) of faith contextually frames the entire book of Romans.

Obedience of faith is mentioned in the first chapter and closing chapter to emphasize what Paul had in mind when he wrote this masterpiece letter to the Church in Rome.


James is teaching this same principle.


Here’s how he starts to cultivate our understanding of this principal (law) of faith.


Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. James 2:17

So we see the idea that faith alone is unscriptural.


He then uses the example of Abraham to what he has in mind when he uses the word “works”.


Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
James 2:21


We know the “work” Abraham did wasn’t the works of the law because that didn’t come for another 430 years.

The “work” Abraham did wasn’t to obey the word from God, by which he received faith.


This is the principle of faith.

Faith must have the corresponding action of obedience otherwise faith remains dormant, “dead”, inactive and unable to produce the result God intended when He speaks to us.

Like a body without a spirit so also is faith without the corresponding action”work” of obedience is dead.


For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:26


As you can see there is more to this principle of faith but this post is already too long.
Excellent observation. Another similar phrase is "work of faith".

(1 Th 1:3) remembering without ceasing your work of faith and labor of love and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father,

(2 Th 1:11) Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of the calling and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power,
 
15 ;“Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

the word lost was not used.

Yes it most certainly was. This is the teaching from Jesus about the lost sheep.

Both Matthew and Luke record this teaching.


What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.
Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

Matthew 18:12-17


What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7


Matthew gives the explanation and meaning of what it means for someone to go after the sheep who became lost.
 
Yes it most certainly was. This is the teaching from Jesus about the lost sheep.

Both Matthew and Luke record this teaching.


What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.
Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

Matthew 18:12-17


What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7


Matthew gives the explanation and meaning of what it means for someone to go after the sheep who became lost.
My sheep hear my voice. and they come to me

According to you. His sheep might hear his voice today. but tomorrow forget his voice.

if your going to try to push a works based gospel. and loss of salvation.

at least try to do it in a way that can be supportive for your belief system

His sheep did not stop being his sheep

he did not lose salvation.
 
Another similar phrase is "work of faith".

Amen.

It’s not that we work for justification or salvation or healing…

However faith always involves hearing and doing for a result.


The woman with the issue of blood knew in her heart that she must touch the hem of His garment to be healed.


God had moved on her to do this, and at this point she had received faith for her healing.


If she had stayed back, because the law forbade an unclean woman to touch a rabbi, then her faith would have remained dead, dormant and inactive as well as incomplete, and therefore unable to produce the healing God intended for her.
 
Amen.

It’s not that we work for justification or salvation or healing…

However faith always involves hearing and doing for a result.


The woman with the issue of blood knew in her heart that she must touch the hem of His garment to be healed.


God had moved on her to do this, and at this point she had received faith for her healing.


If she had stayed back, because the law forbade an unclean woman to touch a rabbi, then her faith would have remained dead, dormant and inactive as well as incomplete, and therefore unable to produce the healing God intended for her.
actually the only reason she would have stayed back is if she did not have any faith

Her faith saved her the moment she decided to move.

the move just proved her faith was salvic.
 
Many people cornered with these facts will say it doesn't matter, their presuppositions still hold. That's hilarious!!
Where you are incorrect brother, but no worries.

1. Koine Greek Use of the Article as a Demonstrative:

In Koine Greek, especially in contexts of anaphoric reference (when the speaker refers back to something just mentioned), the article alone can function semantically like an English demonstrative ("this" or "that")-especially when it follows a prior conceptual referent.

As F. Blass & A. Debrunner write in A Greek Grammar of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (§253),
“The article may refer back to something previously mentioned (anaphoric), and in this use it may approach the demonstrative force of 'that.'”

In other words, ἡ πίστις here refers back to the kind of faith someone claims to have in the first clause--"if someone says he has faith (πίστιν)... but does not have works."

So, contextually, James is speaking not of faith in the abstract, but of a specific kind of professed faith: the workless, verbal-only faith.

Thus, "Can the faith save him?" naturally means, in idiomatic English:

“Can that kind of faith [the kind without works] save him?”

And most modern translations reflect this sense--not because the demonstrative is present in the Greek, but because the article carries an anaphoric and qualifying function.


Daniel B. Wallace, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, p. 219:
q=Daniel+B.+Wallace%2C+Greek+Grammar+Beyond+the+Basics%2C+p.+219%3A&oq=Daniel+B.+Wallace%2C+Greek+Grammar+Beyond+the+Basics%2C+p.+219%3A&aqs=chrome..69i57j0i546i649l2j0i512i546j0i751.1711j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#:~:text=results%20with%3A%20219%3A-,GREEK%20GRAMMAR%20BEYOND%20THE%20BASICS,Good,-Neighbours%20Bookshop

“Anaphoric articles often appear where the article functions like a demonstrative in English (‘that X’).”

Craig L. Blomberg & Mariam J. Kamell, Zondervan Exegetical Commentary: James, p. 135:

“The presence of the article with pistis [faith] (‘the faith’) is likely anaphoric, referring back to the faith claimed in the first half of the verse. Hence many translations render it as ‘that faith.’”

You are correct in a strictly morphological sense: αὕτη ("that") is not in the Greek.

However, you err in their semantic conclusion. In Koine Greek, the article ἡ before πίστις can-and here does-function anaphorically to mean “that (just-mentioned) kind of faith”.

Therefore, “Can that faith save him?” is an accurate and idiomatic rendering, even if it’s not a woodenly literal one.

But now we are nitpicking on words, neglecting the context of James, and this is not edifying @synergy since we are here to do exegetical, hermeneutical studies, not isolated "words" within a verse?!

Jas 2:14 What [is] Τί the τὸ profit, ὄφελος, my μου, brothers, ἀδελφοί if ἐὰν anyone τις says λέγῃ to have ἔχειν faith, πίστιν but δὲ has ἔχῃ; no μὴ works? ἔργα {Is} the ἡ faith πίστις vvv μὴ able δύναται to save σῶσαι him? αὐτόν;

Definite article---The phrase "the faith" in certain translations of the Bible is an anaphoric reference to a previously established concept of faith, according to Bible Hub and other textual analyses. Specifically, when the article "the" is added before the Greek word "pistis" (faith), it indicates that the faith being referenced is a specific, previously defined faith, often translated as "that faith" to reflect this specificity.

J.
 
Back
Top Bottom