Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[GodsGrace]

I'm way ahead of you. Bearing good fruit is not forced or legalistic for those who are born of God.

So, read what Jesus states in John 15:1-2 at face value then ignore other passages of scripture which show that good fruit is the evidence of spiritual life, and a lack of good fruit is a sign of false believers? (Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35) No thanks.

I am not uncomfortable with the words of Jesus in John 15:1-2 but I am uncomfortable with failing to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. Contradictions in scripture make me very uncomfortable.

You don't HARMONIZE Dan....
You IGNORE what some scripturs state and like to believe what you THINK others state.

How about posting some verses (you know POSTING A VERSE) and then we'll discuss?
You NEVER do this.


Do you believe we are not to take Jesus at face value?
Do you believe Jesus was unable to communicate what He taught?
Do you believe Jesus was conflicted in His belief system? In that some verses stated one belief and then in others Hes stated a different belief?

You have a list of verses in parenthesis, as you usually do.

Learn how to post verses:
Pick one that speaks against John 15:1-2 and we'll discuss.

And YOU are VERY uncomfortable with John 15:1-2....
you've been arguing against JESUS' own words for 2 days now.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

That's not all that good works are good for. Have you read James 2:24-26?

James 2:24 You see then how a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
James 2:25 And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she had received the messengers and had sent them out another way?
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Prove how you do not fail to properly harmonize your view of scripture with a proper reading of James 2:24-26.

here we go again

James spoke to people who had no faith.. proven by the fact they had no works.

yes, Faith without works is dead

we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH not of works lest anyone should boast.

No faith = no salvation

no salvation = no change of life or not being made into a new creature

not being changed equals no ability to actually do works

 

[synergy]

to be saved. No
to be sanctified and become more christlike. to do what God wants us to do. yes
Salvation is a gift.
A gift is freely given. Not a prize or a reward.
You try to make a gift a reward. it ceases to be a gift.

I see that you continue to take issue with Paul's usage of the word prize. I'll let you sort out that issue.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I see that you continue to take issue with Paul's usage of the word prize. I'll let you sort out that issue.

lol

Dude your being dishonest, I never took issue with paul telling us to run for a prize.

I take issue with people who calla GIFT a PRIZE

How can I look to you with any notion you may know something when you can not even interpret what I say in a way that makes you appear you know what your talking about.

You just slandered my because you did not read what I said.

 

[GodsGrace]

to be saved, stay saved?

or to be sanctified to become more like christ.

your question is opened ended and impossible to answer as written

To be saved is by grace through faith.

To stay saved if that's how we have to say it.
Because if we want to STAY SAVED...we're going to have to OBEY GOD.
This means obeying the commands of Jesus.
Jesus COMMANDED us to behave in a certain way and to do good deeds.

So....I'd say that we are REQUIRED to do good works.
Saying we do them because we're saved is saying nothing.
OF COURSE we do them because we're saved.

The UNSAVED are not REQUIRED TO DO GOOD WORKS...
only the saved are.

And, in so doing...we obey and become sanctified...a process that entails obeying Jesus.

The question is not open ended...it's simple but perhaps not all are willing to reply:

AFTER SALVATION......ARE WE REQUIRED TO DO GOOD WORKS?

I say Yes. We are required to do good works for the Kingdom of God here on earth.

 

[synergy]

here we go again

James spoke to people who had no faith.. proven by the fact they had no works.

Huh? James was talking to the 12 Tribes and there was not even one person in the entire 12 Tribes who had faith!?!?
James repeatedly called them all brothers. Since when are faithless people called brothers?!?!

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes in the Dispersion, greeting:
Testing of Your Faith
James 1:2 My brothers, count it all joy when you fall into different kinds of temptations,

You are obviously disregarding what is written in plain text and making things up as you go along.

yes, Faith without works is dead
we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH not of works lest anyone should boast.

You're trying to get away from dealing with James 2:24-26 by changing the subject from justification to grace. Why can't you stick to the subject of justification?

 

[synergy]

lol

Dude your being dishonest, I never took issue with paul telling us to run for a prize.

I take issue with people who calla GIFT a PRIZE

Paul calls the gift that we receive a "prize". It's clear that you're taking issue with that.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

To be saved is by grace through faith.

amen, not of works

To stay saved if that's how we have to say it.
Because if we want to STAY SAVED...we're going to have to OBEY GOD.
This means obeying the commands of Jesus.
Jesus COMMANDED us to behave in a certain way and to do good deeds.

then saved by grace through faith is a misnomer

You do not go to someone and say here, i give you this million dollar car as a gift of grace. all you have to do is take it and it is yours (through faith)

then tell them after they receive it, the4y must pay the million dollars. or they will lose it

So....I'd say that we are REQUIRED to do good works.
Saying we do them because we're saved is saying nothing.
OF COURSE we do them because we're saved.

Thats a works based gospel. And rejects grace and rejects the sacrifice of Christ on he cross. And is no better than Judaism is or was.

Let me guess. You mock judaism.. yet are you really any different?

The UNSAVED are not REQUIRED TO DO GOOD WORKS...
only the saved are.

Not to stay saved.

because if they must do good works to stay saved, they are not really saved.. They are still trying to earn their salvation

And, in so doing...we obey and become sanctified...a process that entails obeying Jesus.

Sanctification is christian growth.

Justification is what saves us.. and gives us the ability to run the race of sanctification.

The question is not open ended...it's simple but perhaps not all are willing to reply:

AFTER SALVATION......ARE WE REQUIRED TO DO GOOD WORKS?

I say Yes. We are required to do good works for the Kingdom of God here on earth.

It is open ended.

I am required to do good works to become more sanctified, to become more like christ. To run the race and do my part here on earth

I am not required to do good works to keep myself saved.

That would negate grace.

Here paul says it better than I can.. and he is more reliable and trustworthy than I am

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

Romans 4:4
Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
2 Timothy 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
Our salvation (those who are saved). Are saved, its a completed act.

again, Paul says it best


Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works. lest anyone should boast


Titus 3:5
not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Huh? James was talking to the 12 Tribes and there was not even one person in the entire 12 Tribes who had faith!?!?
James repeatedly called them all brothers. Since when are faithless people called brothers?!?!

are you able to read?

what does it profit a person IF THEY CLAIM TO HAVE FAITH. BUT HAS NO WORKS, CAN THAT FAITH SAVE THEM.

He is talking to a particular group of people who are reading his letter. who claim to have faith. but they are hearers not doers.

are you saying the whole 12 tribes do not do any works. and never have?

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes in the Dispersion, greeting:
Testing of Your Faith
James 1:2 My brothers, count it all joy when you fall into different kinds of temptations,

You are obviously disregarding what is written in plain text and making things up as you go along.

You're trying to get away from dealing with James 2:24-26 by changing the subject from justification to grace. Why can't you stick to the subject of justification?

Thats the whole letter

stick to James conversation with a group of people in chapter 2..

 

[GodsGrace]

amen, not of works

then saved by grace through faith is a misnomer

You do not go to someone and say here, i give you this million dollar car as a gift of grace. all you have to do is take it and it is yours (through faith)

then tell them after they receive it, the4y must pay the million dollars. or they will lose it

Thats a works based gospel. And rejects grace and rejects the sacrifice of Christ on he cross. And is no better than Judaism is or was.

Let me guess. You mock judaism.. yet are you really any different?

Not to stay saved.

because if they must do good works to stay saved, they are not really saved.. They are still trying to earn their salvation

Sanctification is christian growth.

Justification is what saves us.. and gives us the ability to run the race of sanctification.



It is open ended.

I am required to do good works to become more sanctified, to become more like christ. To run the race and do my part here on earth

I am not required to do good works to keep myself saved.

That would negate grace.

Here paul says it better than I can.. and he is more reliable and trustworthy than I am

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

Romans 4:4
Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
2 Timothy 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,
Our salvation (those who are saved). Are saved, its a completed act.

again, Paul says it best


Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works. lest anyone should boast


Titus 3:5
not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

And there you have it EG.
Sounds like you don't believe in doing good works.
No matter HOW it's explained to you.

So, really, you don't agree with Jesus who taught that our light should shine for the world to see.


More after dinner....

 

[JLB]

To stay saved if that's how we have to say it.
Because if we want to STAY SAVED...we're going to have to OBEY GOD.

Amen. It’s our choice.

 

[JLB]

And there you have it EG.
Sounds like you don't believe in doing good works.
No matter HOW it's explained to you.

So, really, you don't agree with Jesus who taught that our light should shine for the world to see.


More after dinner....

Tea and crumpets again?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

And there you have it EG.
Sounds like you don't believe in doing good works.

and here you have it

I stated numerous times in my post we are to do good works.

and you COMPLETELY ignored what I said, and falsely accused me.

No matter HOW it's explained to you.

When you explain ot to me the way the word explains it. i will see it..

So, really, you don't agree with Jesus who taught that our light should shine for the world to see.

Oh I agree 100 % and if you continue to say I do not. you are bearing false witness. where is your good works in representing someone who you are discussing with in the proper way?

More after dinner....

more what? False accusations?

read what I posted. all of it;. Not just the parts you want to read.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Amen. It’s our choice.

Our choice?

I made the chose 40 years ago to receive Jesus

Jesus, knowing everything I did. was doing, and would do all of my life gave me eternal life.

do you not believe Jesus does this to those who recieve him?

 

[JLB]

Our choice?

I made the chose 40 years ago to receive Jesus

Jesus, knowing everything I did. was doing, and would do all of my life gave me eternal life.

do you not believe Jesus does this to those who recieve him?

I’m glad you received Him.

That’s awesome.


Now you need to walk according to the Spirit rather than walking (living your life) according to the flesh.


There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Romans 8:1


Can we discuss this from the scriptures ?


Maybe @Johann would like to join in the discussion.

 

[synergy]

are you able to read?
what does it profit a person IF THEY CLAIM TO HAVE FAITH. BUT HAS NO WORKS, CAN THAT FAITH SAVE THEM.
He is talking to a particular group of people who are reading his letter. who claim to have faith. but they are hearers not doers.
are you saying the whole 12 tribes do not do any works. and never have?

What you're doing is trying to take the focus away from James 2:24-26. I can just as easily do that with the passage about "Do not murder" and talk at lengths about the Law. (That's just an example, not that I have anything to say about the Law). So stop dodging James 2:24-26. Whatever further you send that does not speak about both justification and good works will automatically be channeled to where it belongs.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I’m glad you received Him.

That’s awesome.


Now you need to walk according to the Spirit rather than walking (living your life) according to the flesh.

If I want to be blessed amen. If I want to receive reward amen. If I want to be used by Gid amen if I want to become more like Christ and less like my old self amen

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Romans 8:1

That is destructive not prescriptive

It tells who is not condemned

The reason is they are in Christ not because the do good works

Can we discuss this from the scriptures ?

I always do

Maybe @Johann would like to join in the discussion.

Maybe

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

What you're doing is trying to take the focus away from James 2:24-26. I can just as easily do that with the passage about "Do not murder" and talk at lengths about the Law. (That's just an example, not that I have anything to say about the Law). So stop dodging James 2:24-26. Whatever further you send that does not speak about both justification and good works will automatically be channeled to where it belongs.

I am focused on James 2.

Can you do this?

 

[synergy]

I am focused on James 2.

Can you do this?

James 2 touches upon dozens of topics. If you want to keep avoiding the Justification topic of verse 24 then just say so and that will save us time.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

James 2 touches upon dozens of topics. If you want to keep avoiding the Justification topic of verse 24 then just say so and that will save us time.

we are talking about One topic covered in james 2: 14 - 26

What does it profit a person if they CLAIM to have FAITH. but has no WORKS. CAN THAT FAITH SAME THEM.

there is the opening statement, the rest of the passage is James covering this topic.

Now unless you think ALL 12 tribes claim to have faith. yet have no works.. then you must stick to those who James is pointing to.