Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[Red Baker]

@civic

Here is what I do know.

1- there are born again believers, theologian, scholars, pastors, teachers etc... on both sides of the issue
2- could it be the "ambiguity " was intentional ?
3- this could lead to the question- examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith
4- the warning passages make no sense if they are written to unbelievers
5- the warning passages are to the church and even Jesus does this in Revelation to the 7 churches
6- Its never about how one begins the race but finishes the race- to endure, persevere, continue etc....
7- many of Jesus parables are about the ones who finish, complete the building, have their lamps full, abiding, continuing etc...
8- we do know that many Greek words in the N.T. can have several meaning and the context will determine the intended meaning. What if this is the same principle with salvation and faith ?

Just some things to think about and personally I can argue both sides of the fence on this issue. But the one I can never reconcile is Eternal Life that in many places is given Jesus to believers- its not conditional or temporal life- it never ends.

hope this helps !!!

Quickly~
1) agreed
2) lack of love for the truth.
3) We all have in the past done this many times over, yet as we get older we should have had time to know. 2nd Timothy 1:12
4)Brother, the word of God is written to those who PROFESS to believe and LOVE God, never to anyone one else, and FROM there we determined how to interpret the scriptures.
5)This is true, yet not all, yea, not even many are God's chosen people. Just as the OT was written to Israel, yet we know that not all Israel are of the promised seed. You know the scriptures ~ Romans 9:6-8
6)Agreed, yet we must be careful Lot did not finish like Abraham did!
7)I agree, but mainly only few of God children will take heed to those parables ~ there's different fruit bearing believers in Christ fold, very few are only the same level.
8)I do not get into the Greek, I stay with my KJV that I started out with over fifty years ago. But, I do know that words can have different senses based on the CONTEXT in which they are used in.

 

[GodsGrace]

That is a very excellent and relevant point. But as to the mystery you speak of, I think perhaps Paul also sheds some light on that, if I may, I would share my understanding of it.

Romans 8: 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things "of the flesh"; but they that are after the Spirit (Do mind) the things "of the Spirit".

To me, the "things of the flesh" would mean to submit myself to the "rudiments of the world", natural human wants desires, and my definition of what is good, holy and righteous. But to mind the "things of the Spirit", would be to submit myself to to God's will, and rule over my "natural human wants desires, and my definition of what is good, holy and righteous" and yield myself instead to God and His Righteousness. I believe this because it is written that God is Spirit, and God's Word, Law, Righteousness is also Spirit. So then, if a man is walking in the Spirit, he is walking in the Word of God, "Who became Flesh".

So to walk in the traditions and rudiments of this world is minding things after the flesh, to be carnally minded. But to walk in the Righteousness of God, as Jesus did, is minding the things of the Spirit, or be Spiritually minded. So Paul continues.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. (Not the peace of this world)

Here is the part about the mystery you spoke to, in my view.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Anyway, this came to my mind when you mentioned the word mystery regarding why so many "who call Jesus Lord, Lord", refuse to walk in the "Good Works" God before ordained that men should walk in them.

Agreed to all.
I'd say that when one is walking in the spirit....
there is no worry about losing one's salvation.
When one is walking in the flesh,,,
losing salvation becomes a big issue and the doctrine must be fought
against at all costs.


Hebrews 10:19-24
19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus,
20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh,
21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God,
22 let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful;
24 and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds,


Let us hold fast, without wavering, the confession of our hope.
Let us stimulate one another to love and good deeds.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I agree with you that it's about those who finish the race well. That's not exactly what I'm discussing with @mailmandan but it definitely has a bearing on our salvation.

so you must finish the race to be saved?

what race?

 

[GodsGrace]

Again, you just don't get it.

The above is a comment you're making to @synergy


In Post No. 513, you stated to me:
"When did I say that EVERYONE else is wrong? Another strawman argument. "


MANY times you state that the other person is wrong,,,doesn't get it,,,doesn't understand,,,,etc.
You do this all the time mailmandan. Maybe you don't realize it.
Maybe you should begin to be aware of this.

It's not that WE DON'T GET IT.
It's that WE DON'T AGREE WITH YOU.


You also have stated the following in post 513 to me:
"You seem to feed on contention. Pride is found in works-righteousness and it's those who teach a works-based false gospel that will surely lead some straight to hell. "


What is more prideful than asserting that a person that believes we are to obey Jesus,
that we are to do good works...is going straight to hell ??

Why is obeying Jesus and doing good works a WORKS BASED GOSPEL??
Perhaps YOU are the one that is prideful and wrong??

 

[GodsGrace]

Faith is required to have a spiritual and vital connection to the vine. Nominal or pseudo Christians attach themselves to Christ and can be seen mixed together with genuine Christians in various churches but they still lack that spiritual and vital connection to bear good fruit.

These pseudo Christians you keep discussing
ARE NOT ATTACHED TO THE VINE.

In John 15:1-2 Jesus is speaking about persons that are ATTACHED TO THE VINE.

And how does one self-attach?
BY FAITH of course.

So if one HAS FAITH....
He is attached.

If he is attached...
He is saved....

Your theory fails all around because it is not biblically based.

THE VINE DRESSER SERVERS BRANCHES THAT DO NOT PRODUCE.

Mailmandan,,,,
If a branch that has self-attached and is on the vine
and does not bear fruit....

WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE??
That branch is LOST in any case.
Your theory fails in any case.

Jesus is speaking to saved/born again believers.
THEY are the ones to whom He is referring.

GOD WILL SEVER those not bearing fruit....
Just as Jesus teaches in Matthew 25....
FEED THE HUNGRY
CLOTHE THE POOR
VISIT THE SICK....


YOU have stated that these are works --- in a derogatory way.

These are showing obedience to Jesus....
They are good works,,,done in faith to our Lord.

 

[GodsGrace]

It does not take spiritual power for "nominal" Christians to self-attach themselves to the vine. It takes spiritual power to produce fruit through a spiritual and vital connection with Christ as the vine. Branches that have that spiritual and vital connection with Christ as the vine bear fruit (apart from Christ we can do nothing) and branches that do not have that spiritual and vital connection with Christ as the vine do not bear fruit. Simple. I answered your question. It's just not what you wanted to hear.

Here's what YOU don't seem to understand:

BRANCHES ARE ATTACHED TO THE VINE.
They are receiving nourishment from the vine.
They are part of the vine.

They are believers.
Jesus, in John 15:1-2, is speaking to believers.

As I've stated in my post no. 565....there is NO NEED to address non-believers.

They already are LOST and are not BELIEVERS.
Of course it doesn't matter if they do good works OR NOT.
THEY ARE LOST.

In John 15:1-2 Jesus is addressing BELIEVERS.

 

[synergy]

so you must finish the race to be saved?

what race?

Hebrews 12:1 states that believers are to run with endurance (perseverance) the race that is marked out for them. This means, 1) we are to remain faithful and finish the course given to us, and 2) each of us has our own race to run. God has called each of us to be unique and to serve and fulfill the purpose He has given us individually. We do not all have the same calling or assignment, but we are all to complete our given course.

In some translations, the same verse tells us to run with patience. In long-distance running, a runner cannot sprint the entire length of the race or he will burn out way before reaching the finish line. To run with patience means we must pace ourselves for the distance so that when we near the end of our race, we can finish strong.

This does not suggest that the only goal is to finish the race with no prize or reward. There is more to the race than simply crossing the finish line. The Apostle Paul states, in Philippians 3:14, that he continues to press on toward the mark to obtain the prize! Again, 1 Corinthians 9:24, Paul instructs us to run so that we may also obtain the prize. This is not about winning first place or third place.

In Revelation, the last book of the Bible, God repeatedly exhorts believers to overcome, to be faithful, and to endure to the end. For what purpose? To obtain God’s blessings and best throughout eternity. All believers are instructed to run (not observe on the sidelines) and to patiently endure to the end. In doing so, God promises rewards, or prizes, for each believer who completes his/her course.

Revelation 2:7 states that those who overcome and maintain their faith, will eat from the Tree of Life, which is in the midst of the city of God. Revelation 2:11 states that those who overcome to the end will not be hurt by the “second death.” This means the believer will escape eternal judgment as God now sees that believer through Jesus’ righteousness and not man’s righteousness. As God judges man’s righteousness to be no better than filthy rags, He sees Jesus’ pure righteousness imputed or given to those who have trusted Him and endured to the end. This means believers gain eternal life with Jesus, not judgment and damnation separated from God for eternity.

Revelation 2:17 instructs that he who overcomes will be given some of the hidden manna to eat (the Bread of Life), a white stone symbolizing purity and innocence — not guilt and judgment — and a new name that will be found in God’s Book of Life. When a believer is born again and becomes a child of God, God gives him a new name and writes it in the Book of Life to identify the believer as His.

Revelation 3:5 tells us that he who overcomes will be clothed in white garments, holy and without blemish (Ephesians 5:27) and his name (the new name known by God Himself) will not be blotted out of the Book of Life. It continues to say that Jesus Himself will confess the believers’ names before God the Father and the angels. This means He will not be ashamed of us before His Father and pronounce us as His Bride, perfect in His righteousness and presented to God (see Matthew 10:32; Luke 12:8).

Revelation 3:12 states that he who overcomes will be made a pillar in the Temple of God — permanent, bearing up under trials or loads, immovable (faithful to the end) in the faith. Note that this is not a result of “winning” a race, but enduring patiently and faithfully to the end. As we endure trials and tribulations, exercising our faith in God, we become tempered, strong, and able to withstand all of the wiles of the devil (Ephesians 6:11). Again, Jesus states that He will write on us our new name that is known by Him, declaring we are His for eternity and will remain with Him throughout eternity. Those who endure to the end will belong to Jesus forever and can never be removed or replaced from their eternal home with Him.

Revelation 3:21 provides the seventh reward or benefit of faithfully enduring to the end: to be granted the authority to sit with Jesus on His eternal throne. Believers are joint heirs, co-equal heirs with Jesus as children of God (Romans 8:17), and, through eternity, presented by Jesus to God the Father as the Bride of Christ. Those who endure will reign forever with Jesus from His throne!

Source:

Running the Race to Finish

From a Biblical Christian Worldview perspective.

www.bcworldview.org

 

[GodsGrace]

When did I say that EVERYONE else is wrong? Another strawman argument. You seem to feed on contention. Pride is found in works-righteousness and it's those who teach a works-based false gospel that will surely lead some straight to hell. My teachings uphold the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) I am not of those who trust in their own righteousness. (Luke 18:9-14; Romans 4:4-6; Philippians 3:9)

It's not up to me to prove anything to you. Only the Lord can open people's hearts and eyes to the truth. Roman Catholics and other works-salvationists would certainly agree with your interpretation, which remains a red flag. Besides AT Robertson, there are multiple other Christians who believe the fruitless branches were not saved either, using the same reasoning after properly harmonizing scripture with scripture, so laugh it up all you want and believe as you may. I know what I believe, and you will never convince me otherwise.

Jesus knows that a good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit, and every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. (Matthew 7:17-20)

Then I would say that we'd better start bearing good fruit !!

Jesus also knows the difference between a true disciple and a devil. (John 6:70-71) Something to consider when we read John 15. The evidence of spiritual life is good fruit. The evidence of no spiritual life is no good fruit. Jesus only mentions two kinds of branches in John 15:2. Branches that bear no fruit (mark of no spiritual life) and branches that bear fruit. (mark of spiritual life) Being self-attached to the vine is still in the vine but lacks a spiritual and vital connection. This is where we need to rightly divide the word of truth. (2 Timothy 2:15)

The only thing we need to consider when reading John 15:1-2 is what Jesus states in John 15:1-2...

No matter how uncomfortable it is to some,,,for whatever reason.

 

[mailmandan]

The above is a comment you're making to @synergy

In Post No. 513, you stated to me:
"When did I say that EVERYONE else is wrong? Another strawman argument. "

MANY times you state that the other person is wrong,,,doesn't get it,,,doesn't understand,,,,etc.
You do this all the time mailmandan. Maybe you don't realize it.
Maybe you should begin to be aware of this.

It's not that WE DON'T GET IT.
It's that WE DON'T AGREE WITH YOU.

You also have stated the following in post 513 to me:
"You seem to feed on contention. Pride is found in works-righteousness and it's those who teach a works-based false gospel that will surely lead some straight to hell. "

What is more prideful than asserting that a person that believes we are to obey Jesus,
that we are to do good works...is going straight to hell ??

Why is obeying Jesus and doing good works a WORKS BASED GOSPEL??
Perhaps YOU are the one that is prideful and wrong??

Obeying Jesus by doing good works "after" having been saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-10) is not a works based gospel. Seeking to obtain salvation based on works is a works based gospel. (Matthew 7:22-23; Luke 18:9-14; Romans 10:1-4; 11:6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Hebrews 12:1 states that believers are to run with endurance (perseverance) the race that is marked out for them.

amen, I agree 100 %

This means, 1) we are to remain faithful and finish the course given to us, and 2) each of us has our own race to run. God has called each of us to be unique and to serve and fulfill the purpose He has given us individually. We do not all have the same calling or assignment, but we are all to complete our given course.

where does salvation come in.

do we do this because we are saved, or to make sure we get saved?

In some translations, the same verse tells us to run with patience. In long-distance running, a runner cannot sprint the entire length of the race or he will burn out way before reaching the finish line. To run with patience means we must pace ourselves for the distance so that when we near the end of our race, we can finish strong.

This does not suggest that the only goal is to finish the race with no prize or reward. There is more to the race than simply crossing the finish line. The Apostle Paul states, in Philippians 3:14, that he continues to press on toward the mark to obtain the prize! Again, 1 Corinthians 9:24, Paul instructs us to run so that we may also obtain the prize. This is not about winning first place or third place.

In Revelation, the last book of the Bible, God repeatedly exhorts believers to overcome, to be faithful, and to endure to the end. For what purpose? To obtain God’s blessings and best throughout eternity. All believers are instructed to run (not observe on the sidelines) and to patiently endure to the end. In doing so, God promises rewards, or prizes, for each believer who completes his/her course.

Revelation 2:7 states that those who overcome and maintain their faith, will eat from the Tree of Life, which is in the midst of the city of God. Revelation 2:11 states that those who overcome to the end will not be hurt by the “second death.” This means the believer will escape eternal judgment as God now sees that believer through Jesus’ righteousness and not man’s righteousness. As God judges man’s righteousness to be no better than filthy rags, He sees Jesus’ pure righteousness imputed or given to those who have trusted Him and endured to the end. This means believers gain eternal life with Jesus, not judgment and damnation separated from God for eternity.

Revelation 2:17 instructs that he who overcomes will be given some of the hidden manna to eat (the Bread of Life), a white stone symbolizing purity and innocence — not guilt and judgment — and a new name that will be found in God’s Book of Life. When a believer is born again and becomes a child of God, God gives him a new name and writes it in the Book of Life to identify the believer as His.

Revelation 3:5 tells us that he who overcomes will be clothed in white garments, holy and without blemish (Ephesians 5:27) and his name (the new name known by God Himself) will not be blotted out of the Book of Life. It continues to say that Jesus Himself will confess the believers’ names before God the Father and the angels. This means He will not be ashamed of us before His Father and pronounce us as His Bride, perfect in His righteousness and presented to God (see Matthew 10:32; Luke 12:8).

Revelation 3:12 states that he who overcomes will be made a pillar in the Temple of God — permanent, bearing up under trials or loads, immovable (faithful to the end) in the faith. Note that this is not a result of “winning” a race, but enduring patiently and faithfully to the end. As we endure trials and tribulations, exercising our faith in God, we become tempered, strong, and able to withstand all of the wiles of the devil (Ephesians 6:11). Again, Jesus states that He will write on us our new name that is known by Him, declaring we are His for eternity and will remain with Him throughout eternity. Those who endure to the end will belong to Jesus forever and can never be removed or replaced from their eternal home with Him.

Revelation 3:21 provides the seventh reward or benefit of faithfully enduring to the end: to be granted the authority to sit with Jesus on His eternal throne. Believers are joint heirs, co-equal heirs with Jesus as children of God (Romans 8:17), and, through eternity, presented by Jesus to God the Father as the Bride of Christ. Those who endure will reign forever with Jesus from His throne!

Source:

Running the Race to Finish

From a Biblical Christian Worldview perspective.

www.bcworldview.org

salvation is a gift.

why are you trying to earn a gift as if it is a prize or reward?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Obeying Jesus by doing good works "after" having been saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-10) is not a works based gospel. Seeking to obtain salvation based on works is a works based gospel. (Matthew 7:22-23; Luke 18:9-14; Romans 10:1-4; 11:6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

still confused why people try to mix sanctification (christian growth) and justification (christian salvation)

 

[synergy]

amen, I agree 100 %

So now you understand the race that's required.

where does salvation come in.

Read the passages that are included in this article.

do we do this because we are saved, or to make sure we get saved?

Read Post #541 that you approved of.

salvation is a gift.

why are you trying to earn a gift as if it is a prize or reward?

It's interesting that Paul mentions the word "prize" several times. Are you taking issue with Paul's usage of that word?

 

[mailmandan]

Then I would say that we'd better start bearing good fruit !!

I'm way ahead of you. Bearing good fruit is not forced or legalistic for those who are born of God.

The only thing we need to consider when reading John 15:1-2 is what Jesus states in John 15:1-2...

No matter how uncomfortable it is to some,,,for whatever reason.

So, read what Jesus states in John 15:1-2 at face value then ignore other passages of scripture which show that good fruit is the evidence of spiritual life, and a lack of good fruit is a sign of false believers? (Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35) No thanks.

I am not uncomfortable with the words of Jesus in John 15:1-2 but I am uncomfortable with failing to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. Contradictions in scripture make me very uncomfortable.

 

[GodsGrace]

You did. You have stated before that good works are required to maintain our salvation along with THESE works/obedience are the means by which we receive eternal life.



When did I ever say that obeying Jesus is not important? Obeying Jesus is important, but you could never obey Jesus sufficiently enough to earn your way to heaven. That has been my point all along.

Apparently you do NOT believe obeying Jesus is important or you'd agree that it's NECESSARY to OBEY Jesus.
You believe good works are NOT NECESSARY...
(since you refuse to confirm this)

So, apparently, you do not believe that it's necessary to obey Jesus...
who taught good works for His entire ministry.

Please reply to Matthew 25.....
Are they not good works?

Are we required to do them, as per JESUS, or NOT??

Do we obey Him or not?

Obeying Jesus by choosing to believe in Him (John 3:36) is not works salvation. Seeking salvation by works is works salvation.

Strawman.
Not replying to this anymore.

If you want to call obeying our Lord WORKS SALVATION,,,that is, of course, your option.

Sugar coated double talk. Previously, you said - Good works are required to maintain your salvation and THESE works/obedience is the MEANS by which we receive eternal life. You can't have it both ways.

This is the ONLY WAY:

In order to MAINTAIN OUR SALVATION...
we MUST obey God

Disobedience is equal to disbelief.
You and all those that love their Koine Greek will surely know that this is represented in Greek.

So...disobeying Jesus is tantamount to disbelieving in Him.

Disbelief is being lost.

Sure, these are works yet Jesus was not teaching salvation by works.

Jesus will divide the sheep (those who obey Him) from the goats (those who do not obey Him). After a casual reading of the sheep and goats in Matthew 25, one might conclude that salvation is the result of good works, yet all scripture proves itself right and non-contradictory when compared with the totality of scripture/scripture must harmonize with scripture. This passage needs to be taken alongside the whole of scripture. Jesus was not advocating salvation by works, as you assume. That would be contrary to Romans 4:4-6; 11:6; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5 etc...

The totality of scripture teaches that we must persevere till the end.
The totality of scripture teaches that we must not fall away.
And if you care to discuss Romans 4:4-6....11:6, Ephesians 2:8,9: 2....Timothy 1:9....Titus 3:5, etc.
Why don't you post one at a time and we'll go through it?
Listing verses is NOT POSTING SCRIPTURE.

THIS is posting scripture....:


We must persevere till the end:



James 1:12
12 Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.


Hebrews 10:36
36For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised.


Matthew 24:13
13But the one who endures to the end will be saved.


We must not fall away:

1 Timothy 4:1
1Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,


Matthew 24:10a
10And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray.

One's works are an effect of (and therefore indication of) one's salvation status, rather than being a cause of one's salvation.

Strawman.
We are saved by faith alone.

This is not performance-based salvation, but salvation-based performance. The good deeds mentioned in Matthew 25:35-36 is the fruit that will be manifested in the lives of the redeemed.

Are we reuired to obey or Not??

Those who are placed at Christ's right hand are not there based on the merits of their good deeds, but because righteousness was imputed to them on the basis of faith, not works. (

There you go.
According to you, we are righteous because of Jesus' faith....

And yet the NT teaches that it is OUR faith that saves us...that makes us well, that works for us...
not the faith of Jesus:



Luke 7:50
50And he said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”


Matthew 9:22
22Jesus turned, and seeing her he said, “Take heart, daughter; your faith has made you well.”


Luke 18:42
42And Jesus said to him, “Recover your sight; your faith has made you well.”

Romans 4:2-6; Philippians 3:9). When works are mentioned in connection with salvation, the works are always the result of, not the condition/basis/means of, receiving salvation. The stress is on works as a manifestation of one's faith (or lack thereof), not simply on the faith from which these works follow.

You never post the verse.
Must be that copy and paste routine.

So, it's understandable that in this context, Matthew would stress works which are a manifestation of faith by which one receives eternal life. (James 2:14) Notice also how practicing righteousness and love for his brother is an indication of one's salvation status: 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. He who practices righteousness and loves his brother does so BECAUSE he is born of God not in order to become born of God. 1 John 3:14 - We know that we have (past tense) passed from death to life, because we love our brothers (present tense). Loving our brothers is the result of, not the condition of passing from death to life. Works-salvationists have the tail wagging the dog, the cart before the horse.

WE HAVE is past tense.

BUT some words in the NT are PRESENT TENSE:


John 3:16
16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.


BELIEVE is present tense.
WE must be believing at the time of our death.

He that IS BELIEVING will have eternal life.

Jesus promises us eternal life...as long as we ARE BELIEVING.

 

[mailmandan]

amen, I agree 100 %


where does salvation come in.

do we do this because we are saved, or to make sure we get saved?

salvation is a gift.

why are you trying to earn a gift as if it is a prize or reward?

In context, Paul asks the question. What is the prize before Paul? Is it that reward of which he spoke in verse 1 Corinthians 9:18, his glorying of preaching a free gospel? There are those who take Paul to be referring to the possibility of his rejection in his personal salvation at the end of the race. The problem that I see with that interpretation is there is a difference between a prize and a gift.

A prize is something that you work for and earn where a gift is something that you freely accept without merit. Prize (brabeion) - the prize awarded to a victor, the reward (recognition) that follows triumph. Yet salvation is a free gift that we freely accept. (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8). The NIV says disqualified for the prize. (1 Corinthians 9:27)

1 Corinthians 3:14-15 mentions - If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, (of reward) though he himself will be saved. Paul said disqualified for the prize. Not disqualified for the free gift of eternal life.

 

[GodsGrace]

Obeying Jesus by doing good works "after" having been saved by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8-10) is not a works based gospel. Seeking to obtain salvation based on works is a works based gospel. (Matthew 7:22-23; Luke 18:9-14; Romans 10:1-4; 11:6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9)

STRAWMAN.

You are just not capable of having a serious conversation.

I've been speaking about AFTER salvation all along.

So please answer this question, which I've been asking you for years:

AFTER SALVATION,,,ARE WE REQUIRED TO DO GOOD WORKS?

Thanks.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

So now you understand the race that's required.

to be saved. No

to be sanctified and become more christlike. to do what God wants us to do. yes

Read the passages that are included in this article.

Read Post #541 that you approved of.

It's interesting that Paul mentions the word "prize" several times. Are you taking issue with Paul's usage of that word?

Salvation is a gift.

A gift is freely given. Not a prize or a reward.

You try to make a gift a reward. it ceases to be a gift.

 

[GodsGrace]

In context, Paul asks the question. What is the prize before Paul? Is it that reward of which he spoke in verse 1 Corinthians 9:18, his glorying of preaching a free gospel? There are those who take Paul to be referring to the possibility of his rejection in his personal salvation at the end of the race. The problem that I see with that interpretation is there is a difference between a prize and a gift.

A prize is something that you work for and earn where a gift is something that you freely accept without merit. Prize (brabeion) - the prize awarded to a victor, the reward (recognition) that follows triumph. Yet salvation is a free gift that we freely accept. (Romans 6:23; Ephesians 2:8). The NIV says disqualified for the prize. (1 Corinthians 9:27)

1 Corinthians 3:14-15 mentions - If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, (of reward) though he himself will be saved. Paul said disqualified for the prize. Not disqualified for the free gift of eternal life.

LOL
You find difficulty in every verse that suggests we are to run the race, persevere to the end, do good works,
and anything else that would require some EFFORT on YOUR part.

Incredible.

 

[synergy]

I'm way ahead of you. Bearing good fruit is not forced or legalistic for those who are born of God.

So, read what Jesus states in John 15:1-2 at face value then ignore other passages of scripture which show that good fruit is the evidence of spiritual life, and a lack of good fruit is a sign of false believers? (Matthew 3:8-10; 7:15-20; 12:33-35) No thanks.

That's not all that good works are good for. Have you read James 2:24-26?

James 2:24 You see then how a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
James 2:25 And in the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she had received the messengers and had sent them out another way?
James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

I am not uncomfortable with the words of Jesus in John 15:1-2 but I am uncomfortable with failing to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. Contradictions in scripture make me very uncomfortable.

Prove how you do not fail to properly harmonize your view of scripture with a proper reading of James 2:24-26.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

STRAWMAN.

You are just not capable of having a serious conversation.

I've been speaking about AFTER salvation all along.

So please answer this question, which I've been asking you for years:

AFTER SALVATION,,,ARE WE REQUIRED TO DO GOOD WORKS?

Thanks.

to be saved, stay saved?

or to be sanctified to become more like christ.

your question is opened ended and impossible to answer as written