Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[armylngst]

Could you please post where you get the greek info from?
I'd appreciate it.
Because, as far as I can tell...
GRACE is feminine
FAITH is feminine
SALVATION is feminine

Okay, I was going off of faulty memory. The word "that" is neuter, and since faith is "feminine" it is not referring to faith. It refers back to everything Paul already covered, which is salvation. Grace and faith are a part of salvation, but Paul is speaking of salvation as a whole. Faith is not the gift. Grace is not the gift. Salvation is the gift, gifted by grace through faith. Synergistic. I see it as "For by grace you have been saved,through faith, and that (pointing back to our being saved) is the gift of God, not by works (works salvation is wrong) lest any man shouldst boast. Faith isn't something to really boast about. It doesn't do anything on its own. Salvation is not of works, or we would boast about how we saved ourselves. Our boast is to be in the Lord. Of Him and Him only is our boast. How Great is Our God.

Calvinists want to say the gift is faith. It is not. Salvation is the gift, of which grace and faith are but a part.

 

[armylngst]

“salvation” is an added word … it does not appear in the Greek. “That” is neuter and “gift” is neuter. However, “grace” and “saved” and “faith” … words that do appear in the Greek, are all either masculine or feminine. That means that no, single thing (grace, saved or faith) can be the “gift” and “that” of which the sentence speaks. The “gift” (“that” not of yourself) must be all three (grace, saved and faith) which being mixed masculine and feminine words would require “gift” to be neuter (which it is).

Thus it absolutely cannot be claiming that it is YOUR FAITH and that the “faith” which must be part of “gift” and “that” is NOT OF YOURSELF.

I made a mistake because this is off of old memory. The word THAT is neuter. So it isn't point to faith or grace. I would posit that it points back to the word "saved". So our being saved is the gift of God. Which means salvation, of which grace and faith are but a part, is what Paul was referring to. So it doesn't matter for the Arminian that it doesn't point to faith, because God is still clearly stated as being the gatekeeper of salvation. No salvation unless God gifts it. It is salvation that is not of works, and this theme plays out CLEARLY in the New Testament, with Paul writing a whole book about it. (Galatians).

 

[Jim]

I made a mistake because this is off of old memory. The word THAT is neuter. So it isn't point to faith or grace. I would posit that it points back to the word "saved". So our being saved is the gift of God. Which means salvation, of which grace and faith are but a part, is what Paul was referring to. So it doesn't matter for the Arminian that it doesn't point to faith, because God is still clearly stated as being the gatekeeper of salvation. No salvation unless God gifts it. It is salvation that is not of works, and this theme plays out CLEARLY in the New Testament, with Paul writing a whole book about it. (Galatians).

It doesn't refer back to any word. Rather, it refers back to the entire phrase, "by grace you have been saved through faith". That, so I was told in my Greek class over 60 years ago is proper Greek grammar.

 

[civic]

“salvation” is an added word … it does not appear in the Greek. “That” is neuter and “gift” is neuter. However, “grace” and “saved” and “faith” … words that do appear in the Greek, are all either masculine or feminine. That means that no, single thing (grace, saved or faith) can be the “gift” and “that” of which the sentence speaks. The “gift” (“that” not of yourself) must be all three (grace, saved and faith) which being mixed masculine and feminine words would require “gift” to be neuter (which it is).

Thus it absolutely cannot be claiming that it is YOUR FAITH and that the “faith” which must be part of “gift” and “that” is NOT OF YOURSELF.

Not so fast:

Faith is not the gift, salvation is, see below in Ephesians 2:8

1- salvation - being saved is by grace
2- salvation by grace comes by/thought faith ( genitive case )
3- salvation by grace does not come from yourself- this ( nominative case ) refers to salvation ( nominative case ) which is the gift by Gods grace.
4- salvation is the gift (nominative case )of Gods grace

conclusion: gift, salvation and this are all in the nominative case is in agreement therefor they point to salvation as the gift not faith.

Barnes the Calvinist Theologian agrees below- faith is mans responsibility.

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
This is the work of God - This is the thing that will be acceptable to God, or which you are to do in order to be saved. Jesus did not tell them they had nothing to do, or that they were to sit down and wait, but that there was a work to perform, and that was a duty that was imperative. It was to believe on the Messiah. This is the work which sinners are to do; and doing this they will be saved, for Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth, Romans 10:4.

conclusion: gift, salvation and this are all in the nominative case is in agreement therefor they point to salvation as the gift not faith.

And AT Robertson the premier NT Greek Scholar below .

For by grace (τῃ γαρ χαριτι [tēi gar chariti]). Explanatory reason. “By the grace” already mentioned in verse 5 and so with the article. Through faith (δια πιστεως [dia pisteōs]). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in verse 5 to make it plainer. “Grace” is God’s part, “faith” ours. And that (και τουτο [kai touto]). Neuter, not feminine ταυτη [tautē], and so refers not to πιστις [pistis] (feminine) or to χαρις [charis] (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ἐξ ὑμων [ex humōn], out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God’s gift (δωρον [dōron]) and not the result of our work.11 A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Eph 2:8.

conclusion: gift, salvation and this are all in the nominative case is in agreement therefor they point to saved-salvation as the gift not faith.

 

[Jim]

Not so fast:

Faith is not the gift, salvation is, see below in Ephesians 2:8

1- salvation - being saved is by grace
2- salvation by grace comes by/thought faith ( genitive case )
3- salvation by grace does not come from yourself- this ( nominative case ) refers to salvation ( nominative case ) which is the gift by Gods grace.
4- salvation is the gift (nominative case )of Gods grace

conclusion: gift, salvation and this are all in the nominative case is in agreement therefor they point to salvation as the gift not faith.

Barnes the Calvinist Theologian agrees below- faith is mans responsibility.

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
This is the work of God - This is the thing that will be acceptable to God, or which you are to do in order to be saved. Jesus did not tell them they had nothing to do, or that they were to sit down and wait, but that there was a work to perform, and that was a duty that was imperative. It was to believe on the Messiah. This is the work which sinners are to do; and doing this they will be saved, for Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth, Romans 10:4.

conclusion: gift, salvation and this are all in the nominative case is in agreement therefor they point to salvation as the gift not faith.

And AT Robertson the premier NT Greek Scholar below .

For by grace (τῃ γαρ χαριτι [tēi gar chariti]). Explanatory reason. “By the grace” already mentioned in verse 5 and so with the article. Through faith (δια πιστεως [dia pisteōs]). This phrase he adds in repeating what he said in verse 5 to make it plainer. “Grace” is God’s part, “faith” ours. And that (και τουτο [kai touto]). Neuter, not feminine ταυτη [tautē], and so refers not to πιστις [pistis] (feminine) or to χαρις [charis] (feminine also), but to the act of being saved by grace conditioned on faith on our part. Paul shows that salvation does not have its source (ἐξ ὑμων [ex humōn], out of you) in men, but from God. Besides, it is God’s gift (δωρον [dōron]) and not the result of our work.11 A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament (Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1933), Eph 2:8.

conclusion: gift, salvation and this are all in the nominative case is in agreement therefor they point to saved-salvation as the gift not faith.

I have never heard of pronouns needing to agree in parts of speech.

 

[Duane]

Sounds good.
Except the NT teaches that we are to abide in Christ.

What does that mean to you?
What do you believe all those IFs and CONTINUEs mean that are mentioned in the NT?


Jesus said:

John 15:14
14 "You are My friends
if you do what I command you.


IF is conditonal on something.
Conditonal on doing what Jesus commands.

Salvation by faith is at stake. Once good works are introduced into the salvation process, salvation is no longer by faith alone; it is by faith and works. To imply that salvation is maintained by good works (or not sinning) is to take the daily burden of our salvation upon ourselves. In that case, there will be room for boasting in heaven.

Saying that God’s grace enables us to maintain good works will not solve this dilemma. For who is responsible for daily appropriating that grace? We are back where we began. If salvation is not forever, salvation cannot be through faith alone.

 

[GodsGrace]

Okay, I was going off of faulty memory. The word "that" is neuter, and since faith is "feminine" it is not referring to faith. It refers back to everything Paul already covered, which is salvation.

No problem.
I agree with the gift referring back to all 3...grace, faith, salvation.

@civic just also posted on this and I'd have to say that, yes, the gift is salvation...
but faith is needed for salvation....

Grace and faith are a part of salvation, but Paul is speaking of salvation as a whole. Faith is not the gift. Grace is not the gift. Salvation is the gift, gifted by grace through faith. Synergistic.

I agree again.
It IS synergistic.
We need all 3 for salvation to happen...
God's grace....
our faith.....

but even the faith we receive is God's gift to mankind.

I see it as "For by grace you have been saved,through faith, and that (pointing back to our being saved) is the gift of God, not by works (works salvation is wrong) lest any man shouldst boast. Faith isn't something to really boast about. It doesn't do anything on its own. Salvation is not of works, or we would boast about how we saved ourselves. Our boast is to be in the Lord. Of Him and Him only is our boast. How Great is Our God.

Calvinists want to say the gift is faith. It is not. Salvation is the gift, of which grace and faith are but a part.

Yes. Calvinists want to say that faith is a gift, but the difference is that they believe it is forced onto the "chosen" ones....
which would be irrisestible grace in the TULIP acronym.

Faith is a gift but we have to WANT it...it is not forced.
Grace IS resistible and God does not force Himself onto anyone.

What is odd is that some Calvinists will say that faith is a work....
this is totally not supported biblically, but many of their beliefs are not.

Anyway, this is not a hill I'm willing to die on...
it's just interesting how it is understood differently and how either way makes sense grammatically ---
which it DOES make sense either way....
1. Salvation being the gift.
2. All 3 being the gift.

 

[Jim]

Salvation by faith is at stake. Once good works are introduced into the salvation process, salvation is no longer by faith alone; it is by faith and works. To imply that salvation is maintained by good works (or not sinning) is to take the daily burden of our salvation upon ourselves. In that case, there will be room for boasting in heaven.

Saying that God’s grace enables us to maintain good works will not solve this dilemma. For who is responsible for daily appropriating that grace? We are back where we began. If salvation is not forever, salvation cannot be through faith alone.

There is no statement in scripture that you do not need to do anything to be saved. First of all, to have faith is to believe in God and to believe is doing something. Paul's rejection of salvation by works has to do with works of law, not just doing something.

 

[GodsGrace]

Salvation by faith is at stake. Once good works are introduced into the salvation process, salvation is no longer by faith alone; it is by faith and works. To imply that salvation is maintained by good works (or not sinning) is to take the daily burden of our salvation upon ourselves. In that case, there will be room for boasting in heaven.

Saying that God’s grace enables us to maintain good works will not solve this dilemma. For who is responsible for daily appropriating that grace? We are back where we began. If salvation is not forever, salvation cannot be through faith alone.

I understand your position very well.
§Salvation is by faith alone.

But the NT speaks about CONTINUING in the faith.
Why does it teach something that you claim does not exist?

There will be no boasting in heaven because all we do we do through the Holy Spirit.

BUT
Unless we lost our free will at salvation....we must DESIRE that the Holy Spirit be of help to us.

I believe that stating that God's grace will enable us to do these good works DOES solve the dilemma.
Otherwise we're left with wondering what all the verses on good works is all about.

Did I already ask??? What does John 15:14 mean to you?
What does Jesus mean in John 15:1-2?

What about all the IFs of Paul's?

John 15:14
14 "You are My friends if you do what I command you.



John 15:1-2
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.


Jesus is stating the above.
Why would these statements be necessary if good works/obedience was not necessary?

With all due respect, I believe your position is philosophizing instead of taking the NT literally (at its word).
It ignores all the warnings which would not be necessary if your position were correct.

 

[brightfame52]

@atpollard

Non sequitur. It is speaking of the pruning of Israel to separate “not my sheep” from “my sheep”.

Yes, I will hit on it a little since i perceive you have some understanding. Jesus spoke of jews in Him corporately because the nation was the seed of Abraham, and the Nation Covenantally were Gods People, and Jesus is God. Yet within that nation was a chosen remnant also called Israel Rom 9:6 and all in national covenant israel were not spiritual elect israel the remnant. So a purging takes place under the NT dispensation and the Spiritual Israel will be distinguished from reprobate national israel.

Pretty much the same in Heb 6, the writer knows corporately many make profession of the New Covenant church among the professing jews, so corporately they appear to be of the Faith until persecution for the word comes upon them, and they not being spiritual believers, cant handle it and fall away, Jesus talks about that type in His Parable on the stony heart hearers, yet they were never saved in the first place. See Matt 13:21; Mk 4:17; Lk 8:13

13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

 

[brightfame52]

There is no statement in scripture that you do not need to do anything to be saved. First of all, to have faith is to believe in God and to believe is doing something. Paul's rejection of salvation by works has to do with works of law, not just doing something.

If you are required to believe in God, or to have faith b4 God saves you, that's salvation by your works, a condemned notion in scripture, for salvation is by Grace alone and faith accompanies Grace.

 

[armylngst]

It doesn't refer back to any word. Rather, it refers back to the entire phrase, "by grace you have been saved through faith". That, so I was told in my Greek class over 60 years ago is proper Greek grammar.

So again, salvation, since that is salvation in a nutshell.

 

[brightfame52]

It doesn't refer back to any word. Rather, it refers back to the entire phrase, "by grace you have been saved through faith". That, so I was told in my Greek class over 60 years ago is proper Greek grammar.

Then the Faith is the Gift of God by Grace since its included in the whole phrase. Duh Faith isnt of oneself

 

[synergy]

If you are required to believe in God, or to have faith b4 God saves you, that's salvation by your works, a condemned notion in scripture, for salvation is by Grace alone and faith accompanies Grace.

Condemned by who? You? Since when did you become the Pope to dictate to us all your false presuppositions?

 

[civic]

Condemned by who? You? Since when did you become the Pope to dictate to us all your false presuppositions?

yep

 

[synergy]

yep

The nerve of these Pope-aspiring people!

 

[GodsGrace]

@atpollard



Yes, I will hit on it a little since i perceive you have some understanding. Jesus spoke of jews in Him corporately because the nation was the seed of Abraham, and the Nation Covenantally were Gods People, and Jesus is God. Yet within that nation was a chosen remnant also called Israel Rom 9:6 and all in national covenant israel were not spiritual elect israel the remnant. So a purging takes place under the NT dispensation and the Spiritual Israel will be distinguished from reprobate national israel.

Pretty much the same in Heb 6, the writer knows corporately many make profession of the New Covenant church among the professing jews, so corporately they appear to be of the Faith until persecution for the word comes upon them, and they not being spiritual believers, cant handle it and fall away, Jesus talks about that type in His Parable on the stony heart hearers, yet they were never saved in the first place. See Matt 13:21; Mk 4:17; Lk 8:13

13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Guess Jesus was lying when He said.
"THEY BELIEVED for a while."

I guess Jesus didn't know that they really never believed.
!!

 

[GodsGrace]

Then the Faith is the Gift of God by Grace since its included in the whole phrase. Duh Faith isnt of oneself

Jesus doesn't agree with you on anything!

Jesus said faith IS of ourselves.

Luke 7:50
And He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”


Luke 17:19
And He said to him, “Rise and go your way; your faith has made you well.”

Luke 18:42
And Jesus said to him, “Recover your sight; your faith has made you well.”


YOUR faith,,,has made you well.
NOT
MY faith has made you well.

 

[civic]

Guess Jesus was lying when He said.
"THEY BELIEVED for a while."

I guess Jesus didn't know that they really never believed.
!!

Ya think lol

 

[armylngst]

Then the Faith is the Gift of God by Grace since its included in the whole phrase. Duh Faith isnt of oneself

It is PART of the gift of God. It isn't of oneself, but it also isn't the gift, salvation is. So how faith fits is in the air. I think it is a reaction to God's actions, and as such, it is not a work. Since it is a reaction to God's actions, it is indirectly connected to God, for without God's actions... no faith. Not the faith through which salvation comes. We receive grace, our reaction to the received grace is faith, through which the gift of salvation is received. The is, when God gifts us salvation, our reception is through/by faith, if that makes sense. Wow, there is way too much nuance there. When language fails to truly convey what I am trying to say.