Excellent Discussion on OSAS

[Complete]

Yes, but it all depend on what you consider to be the source of faith. Yes, the package is salvation. it comes by grace through faith. If you think that faith is a gift, then I must wholeheartedly disagree. If you think that faith is a work as described by Jesus, then I will agree. But that difference is key to the correct and biblical soteriology. The work of believing comes by the work of hearing the word about God and Christ. Neither of those are works of law which cannot give salvation to eternal life.

Hello @Jim.

Faith came to me personally by hearing the word of God, by which I was brought under the conviction of sin, and also by hearing I heard that God had provided a Saviour, in the person of His Own Beloved Son, I heard and believed, for faith had entered to the saving of my soul, and I received the promise of life in Christ Jesus.

It was all of God.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[armylngst]

*Grammar. Not grammer.

*It was not the passage I was citing and you should try to pay a little bit better attention.

*Grammar allows differing genders when referring to a group—the entire thing could be God's gift.

*There is no such thing as a partial Calvinist, either God does it all, or he does not.

It's not saying partial or full, and if you say you are calvinist, you might as well say you are of Paul or Apollos. I don't like named theologies because they are constricting. I see myself as calvinistic, where my beliefs are not contradictory to, but in line with calvinist beliefs. (As in TULIP.) Salvation is all of God. I am saying that faith is not directly the gift of God, that is salvation, but faith is not a work of us, its a reaction. That reaction comes as a result and directly connect to in that case, to what God has done. We do not create faith in ourselves.

 

[Complete]

Your interpretation makes no sense.

Faith is a gift AFTER conversion, but not BEFORE conversion?

It says God has dealt to EACH PERSON a measure of faith.

Even though the passage is about Christian gifts, it is still a universal statement.

'I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God,
that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice,
holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
And be not conformed to this world:
but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind,
that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
For I say, through the grace given unto me,
to every man that is among you,
not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly,
according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.'
(Rom 12:1-3)

Hello @Dizerner,

Speaking, as Paul was to a believing community in Rom. 12:1-3 (above), he refers to the measure of faith which they had all received. The word tells us how faith is received, and that is by the word of God, for it enters in and takes root within. through it we come to salvation, through it we are born of the spirit, by it we continue to grow in grace and truth and in the knowledge of God.

It is the work of the word of God, in the hands of the Holy Spirit, to convict of sin, and of righteousness (John 16: 7-11).

'Nevertheless I tell you the truth;
It is expedient for you that I go away:
for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you;
but if I depart, I will send Him unto you.
And when He is come,
He will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.'
(Joh 16:7-11)

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Dizerner]

Speaking, as Paul was to a believing community in Rom. 12:1-3 (above), he refers to the measure of faith which they had all received.

It does not specify WHEN they received the measure of faith.

That would be a logical error.

 

[civic]

It does not specify WHEN they received the measure of faith.

That would be a logical error.

Context determines when. It’s post salvation when they became part of the body of Christ and were given spiritual gifts.

Next fallacy

 

[Dizerner]

Context determines when. It’s post salvation when they became part of the body of Christ and were given spiritual gifts. <--Next fallacy

No, it does not say that.

Stop making things up.

If faith is a gift after conversion it's a gift before it.

 

[civic]

No, it does not say that.

Stop making things up.

If faith is a gift after conversion it's a gift before it.

Projecting

 

[brightfame52]

Faith has an object and faith comes from man. It’s man’s responsibility to believe in the same way it’s man’s responsibility for unbelief. Man is held accountable for his unbelief , not God.

Okay i hear what you say, but let me hear from the person I aske the question to

 

[brightfame52]

Where were they before they fell away? What did they fall away from?

Please provide the scripture that says someone "in the faith" fell away, and then I will spend a little time explaining it.

 

[Doug Brents]

Please provide the scripture that says someone "in the faith" fell away, and then I will spend a little time explaining it.

Heb 6:4-6
James 5:19-20
John 15:1-2
And I could list many more.

 

[brightfame52]

Hello @brightfame52,

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

I heard the Gospel of God delivered and believed what I heard: Faith had entered, and I was brought under the conviction of sin. and received the salvation of God, in Christ Jesus, through His all-sufficient sacrifice for sin, to the saving of my soul.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Okay but you evaded the question friend, you said earlier this: post 2702

For by grace are ye saved through faith;
and that not of yourselves:
it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are His workmanship,
created in Christ Jesus unto good works,
which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.'
(Eph 2:8-10)

Hello @Jim,

The gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord, it is a 'grace by faith salvation' (Eph. 2:8-10): the whole package is God's gift: it leaves nothing for the flesh to glory in. It is all of God: Through Christ Jesus His Beloved Son, now risen and glorified. We are His workmanship.

What Im asking you is , Is Faith part of the whole Package which is Gods Gift ? Yes or No please

 

[brightfame52]

Heb 6:4-6
James 5:19-20
John 15:1-2
And I could list many more.

Please provide the scripture that says someone "in the faith" fell away, and then I will spend a little time explaining it.

 

[GodsGrace]

Using Greek grammer, the verse says through faith and that [salvation] is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. That faith is not the gift. By gender faith and "that" do not match up, but salvation and that do. I consider faith to be a reaction, so is indirectly part of the gift of God. It is our reaction to the radical transformation of our mind and spirit. Our spirit from death to life, and our mind from contary to God, to seeing/understanding where we stand before God. We have a reaction, which is not a work on our part, and fall down before God in belief through this faith. (That doesn't even scratch the surface does it? At least I hope you understand the gist.) Totally calvinist, but not so calvinist as to make faith the gift of God. The salvation is the gift of God, and the salvation is not of works lest any man should boast.

Could you please post where you get the greek info from?
I'd appreciate it.
Because, as far as I can tell...
GRACE is feminine
FAITH is feminine
SALVATION is feminine

 

[GodsGrace]

Please provide the scripture that says someone "in the faith" fell away, and then I will spend a little time explaining it.

Hebrews 6:4-6
For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away,


Revelation 2:4-5
But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.


Matthew 24:10-13
And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.


Hebrews 4:12
Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.



There are more but the above expressly state FALLING AWAY.
AND,,,they're addressed to believers.

 

[atpollard]

Heb 6:4-6

Heb 6:9

James 5:19-20

Are sinners ”in the faith”?

John 15:1-2

Non sequitur. It is speaking of the pruning of Israel to separate “not my sheep” from “my sheep”.

And I could list many more.

Undoubtedly. Will any say “someone in the faith fell away”, that is the question.

 

[atpollard]

Using Greek grammer, the verse says through faith and that [salvation] is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. That faith is not the gift. By gender faith and "that" do not match up, but salvation and that do. I consider faith to be a reaction, so is indirectly part of the gift of God. It is our reaction to the radical transformation of our mind and spirit. Our spirit from death to life, and our mind from contary to God, to seeing/understanding where we stand before God. We have a reaction, which is not a work on our part, and fall down before God in belief through this faith. (That doesn't even scratch the surface does it? At least I hope you understand the gist.) Totally calvinist, but not so calvinist as to make faith the gift of God. The salvation is the gift of God, and the salvation is not of works lest any man should boast.

“salvation” is an added word … it does not appear in the Greek. “That” is neuter and “gift” is neuter. However, “grace” and “saved” and “faith” … words that do appear in the Greek, are all either masculine or feminine. That means that no, single thing (grace, saved or faith) can be the “gift” and “that” of which the sentence speaks. The “gift” (“that” not of yourself) must be all three (grace, saved and faith) which being mixed masculine and feminine words would require “gift” to be neuter (which it is).

Thus it absolutely cannot be claiming that it is YOUR FAITH and that the “faith” which must be part of “gift” and “that” is NOT OF YOURSELF.

 

[Duane]

Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.
—2 Corinthians 1:21–22

The Holy Spirit is a pledge of God’s intentions. He is not finished with us yet. But the presence of the Spirit demonstrates God’s commitment to complete what He has started. If salvation is not permanent, God is simply playing games by sending the Spirit into our hearts.

 

[GodsGrace]

Heb 6:9


Are sinners ”in the faith”?


Non sequitur. It is speaking of the pruning of Israel to separate “not my sheep” from “my sheep”.


Undoubtedly. Will any say “someone in the faith fell away”, that is the question.

Of course you won't....
But reply to my verses in no. 2754.
It speaks to the falling away by believers.

 

[GodsGrace]

Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.
—2 Corinthians 1:21–22

The Holy Spirit is a pledge of God’s intentions. He is not finished with us yet. But the presence of the Spirit demonstrates God’s commitment to complete what He has started. If salvation is not permanent, God is simply playing games by sending the Spirit into our hearts.

Sounds good.
Except the NT teaches that we are to abide in Christ.

What does that mean to you?
What do you believe all those IFs and CONTINUEs mean that are mentioned in the NT?


Jesus said:

John 15:14
14 "You are My friends
if you do what I command you.


IF is conditonal on something.
Conditonal on doing what Jesus commands.

 

[GodsGrace]

Heb 6:9

Looks like you agree on Hebrews 6:9

Are sinners ”in the faith”?

Here is James 5:19-20
19 My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back,
20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.


Putting aside that the entire chapter is to believers....
in verse 19 James is addressing BELIEVERS.

He's telling the believers that if any one of THEM strays from the truth and SINS...
the believer who brings back the straying believer who has sinned...will save that strarying believers soul.

Non sequitur. It is speaking of the pruning of Israel to separate “not my sheep” from “my sheep”.

John 15:1-2
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.


The above does not contain the words FALL FROM or STRAY FROM but it does state that those that do not bear fruit will be cut off from the vine.

ONLY believers are part of the vine....
The vine is Jesus....HE is the life of the branches.

These verses have nothing to do with sheep or goat separation.
It speaks to SHEEP that do not PRODUCE FRUIT.

Undoubtedly. Will any say “someone in the faith fell away”, that is the question.

I posted verses that have the exact words fall away...
and they are to BELIEVERS.....

any explanation for those?
post no. 2754