Do you think that we need to be a 100 percent sin free in order to get God to listen to us?
- Thread starter AlwaysOnAJourney
- Start date
SteveB
Well-known member
charismaticlady
Active member
Romans 7:14-25 is to the Church, about the Jews and Gentiles and teaching the difference between the Old Covenant to the Jews and now about the New Covenant, chapters 6 and 8.
Can you see the difference here in Romans 7:
About a born again Christian in the Spirit:
5-6 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
About the Jews under the law BEFORE Christ:
22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 25 So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
The New Covenant in Chapter 8:
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
SteveB
Well-known member
Rom 1:7 WEB to all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
charismaticlady
Active member
What is your point? That they were Christians? What Paul is pointing out is that even though we are no longer under the law, the law was holy. And that Christians have the law written on our hearts as in Romans 6. Understand yet? Do you know what it means to be born again of the Spirit? It means Jesus takes away sin out of our nature called "the old man." Many false teachers preach that we will always sin, meaning Jesus failed.
SteveB
Well-known member
Apparently you're having a problem I'm not.
My purpose for posting on this thread was to encourage @AlwaysOnAJourney.
Not get in a debate over the things you're talking about.
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
If we did, then God wouldn't ever listen to ANYBODY. God has a specific plan for your life, and after you're Born again, then you take His yoke upon you and LEARN OF HIM, and He'll lead you in the way you're to go.
If you're Born again of the Holy Spirit, then in God's sight you ARE PERFECT AND SINLESS in Jesus.
charismaticlady
Active member
Right according to 1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
And your life does change. Being born again is abiding in Him, and those who are abiding in Jesus KEEP His commandments.
1 John 3:24
24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
Because of the Spirit we have the power of God to obey our conscience where the Spirit has written God's laws.
Romans 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”
101G
Well-known member
Addressing the OP only. James 1:5 "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him." James 1:6 "But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed." James 1:7 "For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord." James 1:8 "A double minded man is unstable in all his ways."
101G.
101G.
SteveB
Well-known member
Here's some things to consider.
Not an argument, just some thoughts to help better understand....
1- the new birth makes us spiritually alive, by/through the Spirit of God.
Paul describes this in Titus 3:5.
Regenerated.
In Ezekiel 36:25-27, it's described as a manifold process by God, topped off with God's Spirit dwelling in us, "causing" us to keep his ordinances and judgments.
2- to be spiritually regenerated, we live and new life, by his Power.
Paul describes this as "walking in the Spirit."
Galatians 5:16-25, Romans 8:4-9.
Peter describes this dynamic slightly differently, but it's the same. 2 Peter 1:2-11.
Over the years, I've found myself being exposed to scriptures that either outright state, or allude to the people who are righteous actually living a blameless life before God. Psalms 101.
In looking at what John says in his first letter, I'm seeing 2 distinct things regarding sin, and living sinlessly.
1- what is sin? 1 John 3 states sin is lawlessness. I.e., living a lawless life.
A -- Do as you please, consequences be da88ed --existence.
2- sin nature.
Paul describes this in his letters to the Galatians and the Romans. The life of the flesh versus the life of the Spirit.
As people who are regenerated by the Spirit, Paul describes in Romans 7 the struggle we have between the two natures. He enjoins us in Romans 8 to walk in the Spirit, and tells us how. Vss 4-8.
In Romans 6, he describes the core of the old and new nature, stating- reckon yourself to be dead to sin, and resurrected to new life in Jesus.
So, we can indeed live a life free of sin, but not be sinless.
John tells us
1Jn 1:8 WEB If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
It's clear here that we cannot claim no longer having a sin nature.
But, according to
1Jn 2:1-2 WEB 1 My little children, I write these things to you so that you may not sin. If anyone sins, we have a Counselor with the Father, Jesus Christ, the righteous. 2 And he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.
We can apparently not sin....
It's a curious phenomenon to be sure.
Sinlessing saints, caught in a battle with two natures.
101G
Well-known member
Greeting to all, good replies from all, Good, and correct on all replies, but if you all may .. ..... would you allow 101G to add a few thing to all the great responses..... 1 John 2:1 "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:" the idea is NOT TO SIN, ......... but, if we do, (and we do while in Christ, and in these fleshly bodies), we have a solution, an "advocate" on our behalf. and also if we sin.... 1 John 1:8 "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." 1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:10 "If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."
and one more, 1 Peter 4:8 "And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins."
101G.
and one more, 1 Peter 4:8 "And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins."
101G.
SteveB
Well-known member
charismaticlady
Active member
Up until the above it was like reading a post I would have written myself. We totally agreed. But then you went off the rails and believe 1 John 1:8 is a Christian. The key word is "SAY" and "SAYS." This person is walking in darkness, vs. 6. Then 8 and 10 are saying they are sinless but do not keep the commandments. Why? Because they still have the sin nature. And NO, we do not have two natures. The "old man" is crucified. John 15:3 says we are clean. That is sinless because 1 John 1:9 is what the person in 6, 8, and 10 must do to actually be saved. John explains this in 1 John 2:4,"He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." John uses the same "key" word.
Also, in chapter 2 the first verse sentence is right. The second sentence is the same as John 3:16 - anyone. "And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world."
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
I certainly hope you do not believe that Romans 7:14-25 is a Christian. Notice they are still in the flesh, but Romans 7:5-7 is about the flesh being in our past. Paul is telling how it was like being under the law. Don't get thrown by Paul's use of first person. He does the same in Romans 8:2. Study that.
Last edited:
Clay
Active member
Jesus is the only one that will ever pull that one off.
The complete absence of sin, only in Jesus. Christ demonstrated complete obedience to God in spite of his human frailty, enabling him to be a perfect atoning sacrifice and to give his righteousness to sinners.
Ephesians 4:13 says that the spiritual gifts are given to build up the body of Christ “until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.”
We will not attain the full measure of Christ This Side of Heaven.
I like how Paul puts it:
21So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
As long as we live in this fallen world we will not be 100% sin free.
The complete absence of sin, only in Jesus. Christ demonstrated complete obedience to God in spite of his human frailty, enabling him to be a perfect atoning sacrifice and to give his righteousness to sinners.
Ephesians 4:13 says that the spiritual gifts are given to build up the body of Christ “until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.”
We will not attain the full measure of Christ This Side of Heaven.
I like how Paul puts it:
Romans 7:14-24
14For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. 15For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.21So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
As long as we live in this fallen world we will not be 100% sin free.
Richard
Active member
Although Christians are saved now from the penalty of sin and its mastery, at the rapture Christians will be saved completely from the power and presence of sin. All vestiges of sin will be removed from our bodies at that time. As 1 John 3:2 and Philippians 3:20–21 point out, we will be like the Lord when we meet him. In his letter to the Ephesians Paul mentions the sealing of the Holy Spirit as "the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it"
charismaticlady
Active member
Those who receive the Holy Spirit have been cleansed of all sin unto death - lawlessness. Jesus makes us righteous. John 15:3 says we are clean. Once that happens Jesus will start maturing the sins not unto death, the immature fruit of the Spirit, 2 Peter 1:5-11.
Anyone still committing sins unto death when we die will stay in the condition they are in. Revelation 22:11. There is a popular false teaching that we will not be "sinless" until our body is changed. That is a doctrine of demons to keep us lost.
Richard
Active member
Sin is sin and as a believer we have been forgiven of all sin, past, present and future. He gives us grace when He saved us and he gives us more grace as we are being Transform Into his image.
Jesus washes our sins away. 1 John 1:7 says, “But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.”
So if we call someone a fool that cuts us off on the freeway We should:
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 1 john 1:9
1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
John 13:10-11 says, “Jesus answered, 'Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet; their whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you.’ For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean.”
We've had a bath but occasionally from walking around in this falling world We need our feet washed.
Jesus washes our sins away. 1 John 1:7 says, “But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.”
So if we call someone a fool that cuts us off on the freeway We should:
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 1 john 1:9
1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
John 13:10-11 says, “Jesus answered, 'Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet; their whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you.’ For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean.”
We've had a bath but occasionally from walking around in this falling world We need our feet washed.
charismaticlady
Active member
No, there are two types of sin. The false doctrine of "Sin is Sin" started in the Reformation. Even Catholics recognized the two types of sin that the Apostle John wrote about. When Jesus cleanses us of sin in the beginning, it is the worst type of sin that is cleansed from our nature to no longer have a "sin nature." Then Jesus starts on the lesser type of sin which takes a while. 2 Peter 1:5-7 shows that progress. Once mature in all those fruits we will never stumble. verses 10-11.
charismaticlady
Active member
Wow, are you calling Jesus a liar? Does John Calvin know more than our Savior?
If you like these verses then you haven't been cleansed of ALL unrighteousness. We must be born again of the Spirit in order to be saved. The Spirit is the power in the born again so we cannot sin and makes us clean. 1 John 3:9. John 15:3.
Sorry, that is another doctrine of demons.
Clay
Active member
Yes the sinless perfection heresy is another doctrine of demons. Like all false teaching its consists of some biblical truths that have been skewed in some way. The ingredients are good, but the recipe is incomplete or else has had unwelcome things added, and the result is a theological and practical mess.
Sinless Perfectionism is a doctrine like that. In short, it holds that it is possible for Christians to completely defeat sin in the present life and to live holy lives like Jesus did. At a glance, it makes a lot of sense. Jesus came to save us from sin. He died for our sins on the cross and he sent his Holy Spirit to empower his people to overcome sin and to live obedient, righteous lives in the present.
For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men, 12 training us to renounce irreligion and worldly passions, and to live sober, upright, and godly lives in this world, 13 awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ
We are in training, we are not sinless. We sin less.
Christians should have the highest aspirations for living holy lives and rejecting all sin. Bible also says that ‘If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us’ 1 John 1:8 It speaks of the fact that until the resurrection we must be at war with our sinful desires
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and do not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh; for these are opposed to each other, to prevent you from doing what you would.
Galatians 5:16-17
Sin is not an enemy ‘out there’. It’s an enemy within that lives and feeds off our fallen human desires and weaknesses (James 1:13-15). That is why sinless perfectionism is not only untrue but also dangerous. People don’t tend to win battles that they don’t even realise they are supposed to be fighting.
