Do you think that we need to be a 100 percent sin free in order to get God to listen to us?

[charismaticlady]

Curious thing about this.
Paul describes in Romans 6 that we're to reckon ourselves to be dead to sin and alive to Jesus.
The old man IS crucified.

Yes, the 'old man,' our sin nature, is dead. To what? SIN!

how? By what means are we clean?

The baptism of the Holy Spirit which is given to make us born again of the Spirit.

Rom 7:14-25 WEB 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am fleshly, sold under sin. 15 For I don’t understand what I am doing. For I don’t practice what I desire to do; but what I hate, that I do. 16 But if what I don’t desire, that I do, I consent to the law that it is good. 17 So now it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwells no good thing. For desire is present with me, but I don’t find it doing that which is good. 19 For the good which I desire, I don’t do; but the evil which I don’t desire, that I practice. 20 But if what I don’t desire, that I do, it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwells in me. 21 I find then the law that, while I desire to do good, evil is present. 22 For I delight in God’s law after the inward person, 23 but I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity under the law of sin which is in my members. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will deliver me out of the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ, our Lord! So then with the mind, I myself serve God’s law, but with the flesh, sin’s law.

Paul is talking about Paul! He's not describing anyone else.
Look at all the incidents that Paul says I and me!

Do you think Paul means every Christian except him? Look at what Paul's current situation is after your passage of 14-25. Romans 8:2 "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

 

[charismaticlady]

Paul is talking about Paul! He's not describing anyone else.
Look at all the incidents that Paul says I and me!

It is first person because he and John are EASTERN Apostles. Look at John's 1 John 1, 6, 8, and 10, all about those in darkness and are liars according to 2:4.

6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

 

[charismaticlady]

The Law is spiritual.
Sin killed our spirit.
God's Spirit makes us spiritually alive through the Word of God- 1 Peter 1:23.
1 John 1:8 is written to/about followers of Jesus exactly as 1 John 1:5 through 2:2 is written to Jesus followers.

There are people who follow Jesus who don't understand the conflict between the old man and the New man in Christ, who sees what Paul said in Romans 7:17 So now it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwells in me.

And thinks.... mistakenly....
Gosh, if it's sin that dwells in me, and not actually me, i must be without sin.

No...
Sin that dwells in me means that I have sin.

1Jn 1:8 WEB If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

The truth is...
We are indeed crucified with Christ. Romans 6, Galatians 2:20, Colossians 3:1-4.

If we didn't have a struggle with sin, why did Paul write the letters he did?
If we didn't struggle with sin, why did Jesus say unless we deny ourselves, pick up our cross and follow him, we cannot be his disciples?

If we don't struggle with the old man and the carnal nature, why would John describe the truths in 1 John 1 through 5?

Then what did John say in 1 John 5,

1Jn 5:13 WEB These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

1Jn 5:16-17 WEB 16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life for those who sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I don’t say that he should make a request concerning this. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.

these things are written to followers of Jesus, for the purpose of ensuring they're choosing life, and fleeing from their sin.

It's possible to not sin, and yet still have sin.

I am going to give you my first-hand account of becoming born again.

To get on the right path we must see that according to Hebrews 12:2 we cannot take credit for our salvation, except to believe and trust that Jesus will DO what HE (not us) said He would do. Jesus is the author/originator and finisher/perfecter of our faith. The most dramatic the conversion, the easier it is to understand. I can vouch for my statement. I was in love with my sin and though I knew it was wrong having been raised in the Seventh-day Adventist denomination until I was 23 and having memorized the Ten Commandments word for word, I couldn't give up my married lover. I was committing adultery big time and couldn't stop. So, I started going back to church at a Pentecostal church.

Church leaders say repentance is “turning away” from sin. So that is what I tried. I broke up with him but was back in his arms three days later. Month after month I tried turning away from adultery, but after 6 tries and failures, I realized something. There was no power in me to succeed, so I told God "I give up. If You want this sin to be broken, then You are going to have to do it. Lay it on him to break up with me, and then give him the strength to stay away from me!" One week later I get a knock at my door, and it was him. He had suddenly realized that he couldn't be here if I needed him, and he was stealing my chance for a lifelong relationship. After 30 years of never having a prayer answered, God finally answered my prayer because it was His will.

That was the start of Jesus being the author and finisher of my faith. Jesus saved me after I gave up being at the helm of my life. Two weeks later at church on a Wednesday night I saw a vision and heard His voice for the first time and was cleansed of all desire to sin, including adultery. I literally felt a weight lift up and out of me. I felt light as a feather. What left me was the sin in my nature! The grace given to me was the power of the Holy Spirit preventing me from sinning lawlessly. The Spirit put love in me for God and I loved what He loves and hated what He hates. And now at 77 years old I sense Jesus still perfecting and purifying me and maturing the last of the fruits of the Spirit.

 

[charismaticlady]

1Jn 5:16-17 WEB 16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God will give him life for those who sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I don’t say that he should make a request concerning this. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.

7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

These are the sins NOT unto death John is talking about, but they are only cleansed if we are abiding in Christ and walking (not lying about) in the Spirit.

It is also how John could say in his gospel chapter 15 about the fruit of the Spirit, that we are clean. Notice Jesus is freeing us first from mortal sins against the commandments/law and then starts of sometimes a lifetime long maturing of all the fruit of the Spirit and Peter says in 2 Peter 1:5-11 that we will never stumble. Do you believe Peter? Or Calvin?

 

[SteveB]

Yes, the 'old man,' our sin nature, is dead. To what? SIN!

Yep.
I never said otherwise.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit which is given to make us born again of the Spirit.

Really? Because from what I read in John 15:3, Jesus said we are clean by the word he'd spoken to them.

Joh 15:3 WEB You are already pruned clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.

Do you think Paul means every Christian except him?

i think Paul was talking about himself in Romans 7:14-25.

Look at what Paul's current situation is after your passage of 14-25. Romans 8:2 "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

Yep.
He's still talking about himself.
Fwiw, you're not actually helping your ideas here.
You're merely restating what I said.

So, what's your goal here?

 

[SteveB]

It is first person because he and John are EASTERN Apostles. Look at John's 1 John 1, 6, 8, and 10, all about those in darkness and are liars according to 2:4.

And?

6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

You're not connecting your point about the people John described in verse 8.
If I take the plain meaning of vs 8, to your claim....
John is saying he's not a follower of Jesus because he said....
WE...

So...
What is it?
Is John a follower of Jesus, meaning that John is talking to people who are followers of Jesus, or is he excluding everyone who says they have no sin, making himself an outsider too?

Your claims lack coherence.

 

[SteveB]

I am going to give you my first-hand account of becoming born again.

To get on the right path we must see that according to Hebrews 12:2 we cannot take credit for our salvation, except to believe and trust that Jesus will DO what HE (not us) said He would do. Jesus is the author/originator and finisher/perfecter of our faith. The most dramatic the conversion, the easier it is to understand. I can vouch for my statement. I was in love with my sin and though I knew it was wrong having been raised in the Seventh-day Adventist denomination until I was 23 and having memorized the Ten Commandments word for word, I couldn't give up my married lover. I was committing adultery big time and couldn't stop. So, I started going back to church at a Pentecostal church.

Ok.

Church leaders say repentance is “turning away” from sin.

this is where the problem is....
i was taught to search the scriptures and only believe what church leaders say when what they say agrees with scripture.
otherwise, we dismiss them.

So that is what I tried. I broke up with him but was back in his arms three days later. Month after month I tried turning away from adultery, but after 6 tries and failures, I realized something. There was no power in me to succeed, so I told God "I give up. If You want this sin to be broken, then You are going to have to do it. Lay it on him to break up with me, and then give him the strength to stay away from me!" One week later I get a knock at my door, and it was him. He had suddenly realized that he couldn't be here if I needed him, and he was stealing my chance for a lifelong relationship. After 30 years of never having a prayer answered, God finally answered my prayer because it was His will.

ok.

That was the start of Jesus being the author and finisher of my faith. Jesus saved me after I gave up being at the helm of my life. Two weeks later at church on a Wednesday night I saw a vision and heard His voice for the first time and was cleansed of all desire to sin, including adultery. I literally felt a weight lift up and out of me. I felt light as a feather. What left me was the sin in my nature! The grace given to me was the power of the Holy Spirit preventing me from sinning lawlessly. The Spirit put love in me for God and I loved what He loves and hated what He hates. And now at 77 years old I sense Jesus still perfecting and purifying me and maturing the last of the fruits of the Spirit.

Ok.
Thank you for giving me your personal testimony.

What is the new birth?
Jesus says it's an absolute necessity and failure to experience it will exclude us from the Kingdom of God. John 3:3-5.

Peter describes the new birth as taking place by God's Word.

1Pe 1:23-25 WEB 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, which lives and remains forever. 24 For, “All flesh is like grass, and all of man’s glory like the flower in the grass. The grass withers, and its flower falls; 25 but the Lord’s word endures forever.” This is the word of Good News which was preached to you.
A seed which is incorruptible and lasts forever.

Paul describes the new birth slightly differently in Titus 3.

Tit 3:5 WEB not by works of righteousness which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy, he saved us through the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

So, from Jesus we know the new birth is an absolute necessity.

Peter describes our new birth as taking place because of God's Word being a seed which is incorruptible and lasts forever.

Paul says we're regenerated by the Spirit of God.

What is the new birth?
How can we know we are born again?

Does Scripture describe the new birth anywhere?
Even under a different name?

Where?

 

[SteveB]

7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

These are the sins NOT unto death John is talking about, but they are only cleansed if we are abiding in Christ and walking (not lying about) in the Spirit.

John doesn't say what those sins unto death are.
He just says to pray for those people engaged in such things to turn to God, from those things, and trust in Jesus, so they won't perish.

It is also how John could say in his gospel chapter 15 about the fruit of the Spirit, that we are clean.

but we aren't cleaned by the fruit of the Spirit.
we are clean by the word Jesus spoke.

Notice Jesus is freeing us first from mortal sins against the commandments/law and then starts of sometimes a lifetime long maturing of all the fruit of the Spirit and Peter says in 2 Peter 1:5-11 that we will never stumble. Do you believe Peter? Or Calvin

Mortal sins?
Sounds catholic. I'm aware of two basic types of sin.
Those forgivable and the one not forgivable.

As for Pete and John C......
I'd believe Peter over Calvin any day.
Calvin, while gone, is like anyone who is a follower of Jesus.
Peter, while a follower of Jesus, is in the Bible writing crowd.
He's among the 9 writers which give us church doctrine to guide the followers of Jesus throughout our lives.

In Peter's letter....
Where you start at vs 5....
Why are we allowed to focus on increasing faith to virtue, virtue to knowledge, etc.....
He says some things in verses 2 through 4 that give us the wherewithal to focus on being able to increase the items listed in vss 5-7.

 

[charismaticlady]

Because from what I read in John 15:3, Jesus said we are clean by the word he'd spoken to them.

You want a word?

15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

Why are you against the empowerment of the Holy Spirit? Do you have that power? I didn't for the first 30 years (!!!) of going to church! Until I truly repented as I told you in my testimony.

 

[SteveB]

You want a word?

Ok. You're not even paying attention to what you yourself referenced in post 33.

Post in thread 'Do you think that we need to be a 100 percent sin free in order to get God to listen to us?' https://berean-apologetics.communit...r-to-get-god-to-listen-to-us.1340/post-120163

15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.

Yeah. Not challenging that.

16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

Not challenging any of this.

Why are you against the empowerment of the Holy Spirit?

I'm not. I depend entirely on the Holy Spirit, and the written Word.

Do you have that power?

yep. Since I was a young believer.

I didn't for the first 30 years (!!!) of going to church!

I'm sorry.

Until I truly repented as I told you in my testimony.

Ok.

 

[Cyrus]

Right, under the law. But once you are born again you are no longer under the law, BECAUSE you are no longer in the flesh, Romans 7:5-6 is about Christians. Verses 14-25 was us before chapter 8 telling us about the SPIRIT.

The problem is many Christians have never been baptized with the Holy Spirit and freed from our flesh. Romans 8:9. "But you are NOT IN THE FLESH BUT IN THE SPIRIT if the Spirit of God indwells you.

Sins not unto death as in immature fruit of the Spirit are cleansed as long as you are walking in the Spirit, 1 John 1:7. If you are walking in the Spirit your Savior is maturing those fruit in a process of glorification (not sanctification that happens when we are cleansed and justified. 1 Cor. 6:11) The point is we must view sin as the word says. Sin is lawlessness. A sin against the Ten Commandments, including lying.) Sins unto death take you to death and hell. Sins not unto death do not.

Next time you bump your toe remember you are no longer in the flesh

Count it all joy.

 

[charismaticlady]

Post in thread 'Do you think that we need to be a 100 percent sin free in order to get God to listen to us?' https://berean-apologetics.communit...r-to-get-god-to-listen-to-us.1340/post-120163

At the beginning of our coming to Christ, no, of course. But for someone like me who has walked in the Spirit for nearly 50 years, you betcha. Besides it is not my power or even choice, it is all Jesus, the FINISHER of our faith.

 

[charismaticlady]

Next time you bump your toe remember you are no longer in the flesh

Count it all joy.

Funny. I see you are being mocking, but I hope knowing the truth that Paul is not referring to our body, but our inner nature. What most of the church believes is that even after being born again of the Spirit we STILL have a sin nature. That is not true, but most people convince themselves they have a sin nature. So, believing that we do still have sin in our nature, "as a man thinks in his heart, so is he." This is why Paul also said to "reckon" ourselves free from sin. Romans 6, 5-11.

 

[Darby]

When a Christian is in bondage to sin and needs help. His sin is against himself and the larger family of God. In these instances, Paul indicates that this person should be approached by several spiritual Christians immediately. Thus, he wrote: “You who are spiritual should restore him.”

 

[SteveB]

At the beginning of our coming to Christ, no, of course. But for someone like me who has walked in the Spirit for nearly 50 years, you betcha. Besides it is not my power or even choice, it is all Jesus, the FINISHER of our faith.

What is that based on?

 

[charismaticlady]

What is that based on?

Here are a few verses. Do these help? Not sure what "that" is exactly.

First a promise:
Matthew 5:48 "Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."
1 Peter 1:16 "because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”

Romans 6:5-11
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1 John 1:7 " But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

John 15:3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

 

[SteveB]

Here are a few verses. Do these help? Not sure what "that" is exactly.

Ok. So you're basing it on a few select Bible verses.
Good place to start.

First a promise:
Matthew 5:48 "Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."
1 Peter 1:16 "because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.”

A promise? Sounds like a commandment to me.
Do you know what the Greek word translated into perfect, is?
i encourage you to read up on it.

Romans 6:5-11
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1 John 1:7 " But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

John 15:3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

So, are these it?
Are there any more?

 

[charismaticlady]

A promise? Sounds like a commandment to me.
Do you know what the Greek word translated into perfect, is?
i encourage you to read up on it.

Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith, so yes, a promise once we come to Him to cleanse us.

So, are these it?
Are there any more?

I'm left guessing what subject you are asking about. Sin? Hearing God's voice? What exactly, and what is it that makes it a problem?

 

[SteveB]

Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith, so yes, a promise once we come to Him to cleanse us.

Ok. You didn't answer my question.

The word translated- perfect- in the English, is the Greek word, Tellioo.
It means
whole, complete.
This is important, because according to Hebrews 10:14, those who are being sanctified have been perfected. Or, made whole and complete.
According to Colossians 2:10, we are made complete, in Christ.
According to 2 Peter 1:3, everything we need to live among godly life is given to us through the knowledge of Him who has called us by his own glory and virtue.

So, we do indeed need to be whole and complete, just as the Father is whole and complete.

Holy is further given to us through the offering of the body of Jesus, once and for all! Hebrews 10:10.
He has sanctified us through the offering of his own body.

I'm left guessing what subject you are asking about.

that's sad. I was trying to ascertain how much you understood of what you're talking about.

Sin?

our life in Christ.

Hearing God's voice?

our lives in Christ.

What exactly, and what is it that makes it a problem?

Ok.

This is where I ask you..

Can you describe to me, what being "In Christ" is?

Before you answer that, please read
Ephesians 1-3
Colossians 1-3
Romans 5-8

These are extremely important for the followers of Jesus.

Extremely important!

Look for the terms-
In Christ
In him
In whom

 

[charismaticlady]

Ok. You didn't answer my question.

The word translated- perfect- in the English, is the Greek word, Tellioo.
It means
whole, complete.
This is important, because according to Hebrews 10:14, those who are being sanctified have been perfected. Or, made whole and complete.
According to Colossians 2:10, we are made complete, in Christ.
According to 2 Peter 1:3, everything we need to live among godly life is given to us through the knowledge of Him who has called us by his own glory and virtue.

So, we do indeed need to be whole and complete, just as the Father is whole and complete.

Holy is further given to us through the offering of the body of Jesus, once and for all! Hebrews 10:10.
He has sanctified us through the offering of his own body.





that's sad. I was trying to ascertain how much you understood of what you're talking about.


our life in Christ.


our lives in Christ.


Ok.

This is where I ask you..

Can you describe to me, what being "In Christ" is?

Before you answer that, please read
Ephesians 1-3
Colossians 1-3
Romans 5-8

These are extremely important for the followers of Jesus.

Extremely important!
o
Look for the terms-
In Christ
In him
In whom

Basically you are asking what happens when a sinner hears the gospel and knows that Jesus is the way to heaven and eternal life, but we must be free from sin because slaves of sin do not inherit eternal life with God. John 8:32-36. Quickly we find that we cannot be holy by just choosing to live holy because of the sin nature we inherited from Adam's sin. Our secret thoughts causes unholy actions we cannot overcome by ourselves. The good news (gospel) is when we see ourselves helpless to be holy that we give up trying and repent that we ourselves are inadequate to stop being a slave to sin. This is when Jesus gives us the good news - the power of God cleanses us from ALL unrighteousness. Jesus blood cleanses the old man, our sin nature! That statement is not known by most of the church, except by those who have actually repented and received the power of the Holy Spirit.

First, Jesus takes out sins unto death from our nature. Our character takes on a whole new outlook. We love what God loves, and we hate what God hates. It is supernatural, but the natural man does not understand what happened to a Christian and many so called Christians believe that is heresy and foolishness. But the power of God is why a born again Christian cannot sin against the commandments of God - sins unto death. 1 John 3:9.

We also desire to learn more and more of the word of God. This is how we abide in Jesus. His Spirit is in our heart along with God's law and has super-sensitized our conscience. This is how we remain in Christ, by following our conscience and seeing our prayers being answered giving us intense joy. 1 John 3:21-22. This is the beginning of maturing in the fruit of the Spirit - immature fruit bears sins NOT unto death, but as we abide in Christ and His Spirit, we have fellowship with God and these sins not unto death are cleansed. 1 John 1:7.

This is why since 1977 when I was born again of the Spirit all of my prayers are answered and I received many gifts of the Spirit, and now signs and wonders not even described in Scripture, but ARE from God as the evidence produces the same result - knowledge of the powerful nature of God which eye has not seen (in the natural) and ear has not heard (in the natural).

Before 1977 since 1947 when I was born into a Christian home, not one prayer was answered and and heaven was silent. I had to choose to be a Christian but doubts developed. Little did I know that God would someday make me a Teacher and I would see miracles.