Dishonoring the bodily sacrifice of Jesus Christ in Calvinism

[TomL]

Then all are saved.

Only if you assume atonement of itself saves

The Calvinist WGT Shedd points out the problem with that assumption

It may be asked: If atonement naturally and necessarily cancels guilt, why does not the vicarious atonement of Christ save all men indiscriminately, as the universalist contends? The substituted suffering of Christ being infinite is equal in value to the personal suffering of all mankind; why then are not all men upon the same footing and in the class of the saved, by virtue of it? The answer is because it is a natural impossibility. Vicarious atonement without faith in it is powerless to save. It is not the making of this atonement, but the trusting in it, that saves the sinner: “By faith are you saved” (Eph. 2:8); “he that believes shall be saved” (Mark 16:16). The making of this atonement merely satisfies the legal claims, and this is all that it does. If it were made but never imputed and appropriated, it would result in no salvation. A substituted satisfaction of justice without an act of trust in it would be useless to sinners. It is as naturally impossible that Christ’s death should save from punishment one who does not confide in it as that a loaf of bread should save from starvation a man who does not eat it. The assertion that because the atonement of Christ is sufficient for all men therefore no men are lost is as absurd as the assertion that because the grain produced in the year 1880 was sufficient to support the life of all men on the globe therefore no men died of starvation during that year. The mere fact that Jesus Christ made satisfaction for human sin, alone and of itself, will save no soul. Christ, conceivably, might have died precisely as he did and his death have been just as valuable for expiatory purposes as it is, but if his death had not been followed with the work of the Holy Spirit and the act of faith on the part of individual men, he would have died in vain.[1]

---

[1] William Greenough Thayer Shedd, Dogmatic Theology, ed. Alan W. Gomes, 3rd ed. (Phillipsburg, NJ: P & R Pub., 2003), 726.

 

[Presby02]

Only if you assume atonement of itself saves

The Calvinist WGT Shedd points out the problem with that assumption

It may be asked: If atonement naturally and necessarily cancels guilt, why does not the vicarious atonement of Christ save all men indiscriminately, as the universalist contends? The substituted suffering of Christ being infinite is equal in value to the personal suffering of all mankind; why then are not all men upon the same footing and in the class of the saved, by virtue of it? The answer is because it is a natural impossibility. Vicarious atonement without faith in it is powerless to save. It is not the making of this atonement, but the trusting in it, that saves the sinner: “By faith are you saved” (Eph. 2:8); “he that believes shall be saved” (Mark 16:16). The making of this atonement merely satisfies the legal claims, and this is all that it does. If it were made but never imputed and appropriated, it would result in no salvation. A substituted satisfaction of justice without an act of trust in it would be useless to sinners. It is as naturally impossible that Christ’s death should save from punishment one who does not confide in it as that a loaf of bread should save from starvation a man who does not eat it. The assertion that because the atonement of Christ is sufficient for all men therefore no men are lost is as absurd as the assertion that because the grain produced in the year 1880 was sufficient to support the life of all men on the globe therefore no men died of starvation during that year. The mere fact that Jesus Christ made satisfaction for human sin, alone and of itself, will save no soul. Christ, conceivably, might have died precisely as he did and his death have been just as valuable for expiatory purposes as it is, but if his death had not been followed with the work of the Holy Spirit and the act of faith on the part of individual men, he would have died in vain.[1]

---

[1] William Greenough Thayer Shedd, Dogmatic Theology, ed. Alan W. Gomes, 3rd ed. (Phillipsburg, NJ: P & R Pub., 2003), 726.

I disagree. Without your faith God is powerless to save?

Can you be saved without the atonement?

 

[brightfame52]

@TomL

Only if you assume atonement of itself saves

It does save, but only the elect for whom it was designed for. To say it doesnt save in and of itself is very dishonoring to the Sacrifice of Christ, Blasphemous even.

 

[Presby02]

@TomL




It does save, but only the elect for whom it was designed for. To say it doesnt save in and of itself is very dishonoring to the Sacrifice of Christ, Blasphemous even.

Amen

 

[brightfame52]

I disagree. Without your faith God is powerless to save?

Can you be saved without the atonement?

Thats the only way one can believe, when Christ saves them.

 

[TomL]

@TomL




It does save, but only the elect for whom it was designed for. To say it doesnt save in and of itself is very dishonoring to the Sacrifice of Christ, Blasphemous even.

Not if you have no faith in the atoning one

 

[TomL]

I disagree. Without your faith God is powerless to save?

Can you be saved without the atonement?

God can do whatever he wants

What he wants to do is save those that believe not unbelievers

 

[Presby02]

God can do whatever he wants

What he wants to do is save those that believe not unbelievers

He does not want to save unbelievers?

 

[brightfame52]

Not if you have no faith in the atoning one

His atoning death gives Faith in Christ.

 

[brightfame52]

He does not want to save unbelievers?

Yes He does save unbelievers, and converts them to believers. Your statement is as dumb as saying He doesnt want to save the ungodly, or sinners.

 

[Presby02]

Yes He does save unbelievers, and converts them to believers. Your statement is as dumb as saying He doesnt want to save the ungodly, or sinners.

It was a question to Tom. Not a statement of what I believe. I agree with you.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Umm...no you did not. Which text?

What do you mean by text?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Only if you assume atonement of itself saves

The Calvinist WGT Shedd points out the problem with that assumption

It may be asked: If atonement naturally and necessarily cancels guilt, why does not the vicarious atonement of Christ save all men indiscriminately, as the universalist contends? The substituted suffering of Christ being infinite is equal in value to the personal suffering of all mankind; why then are not all men upon the same footing and in the class of the saved, by virtue of it? The answer is because it is a natural impossibility. Vicarious atonement without faith in it is powerless to save. It is not the making of this atonement, but the trusting in it, that saves the sinner: “By faith are you saved” (Eph. 2:8); “he that believes shall be saved” (Mark 16:16). The making of this atonement merely satisfies the legal claims, and this is all that it does. If it were made but never imputed and appropriated, it would result in no salvation. A substituted satisfaction of justice without an act of trust in it would be useless to sinners. It is as naturally impossible that Christ’s death should save from punishment one who does not confide in it as that a loaf of bread should save from starvation a man who does not eat it. The assertion that because the atonement of Christ is sufficient for all men therefore no men are lost is as absurd as the assertion that because the grain produced in the year 1880 was sufficient to support the life of all men on the globe therefore no men died of starvation during that year. The mere fact that Jesus Christ made satisfaction for human sin, alone and of itself, will save no soul. Christ, conceivably, might have died precisely as he did and his death have been just as valuable for expiatory purposes as it is, but if his death had not been followed with the work of the Holy Spirit and the act of faith on the part of individual men, he would have died in vain.[1]

---

[1] William Greenough Thayer Shedd, Dogmatic Theology, ed. Alan W. Gomes, 3rd ed. (Phillipsburg, NJ: P & R Pub., 2003), 726.

They have no idea how to establish their premise. It is so ridiculous at so many levels.

 

[praise_yeshua]

Only if you assume atonement of itself saves

The Calvinist WGT Shedd points out the problem with that assumption

It may be asked: If atonement naturally and necessarily cancels guilt, why does not the vicarious atonement of Christ save all men indiscriminately, as the universalist contends? The substituted suffering of Christ being infinite is equal in value to the personal suffering of all mankind; why then are not all men upon the same footing and in the class of the saved, by virtue of it? The answer is because it is a natural impossibility. Vicarious atonement without faith in it is powerless to save. It is not the making of this atonement, but the trusting in it, that saves the sinner: “By faith are you saved” (Eph. 2:8); “he that believes shall be saved” (Mark 16:16). The making of this atonement merely satisfies the legal claims, and this is all that it does. If it were made but never imputed and appropriated, it would result in no salvation. A substituted satisfaction of justice without an act of trust in it would be useless to sinners. It is as naturally impossible that Christ’s death should save from punishment one who does not confide in it as that a loaf of bread should save from starvation a man who does not eat it. The assertion that because the atonement of Christ is sufficient for all men therefore no men are lost is as absurd as the assertion that because the grain produced in the year 1880 was sufficient to support the life of all men on the globe therefore no men died of starvation during that year. The mere fact that Jesus Christ made satisfaction for human sin, alone and of itself, will save no soul. Christ, conceivably, might have died precisely as he did and his death have been just as valuable for expiatory purposes as it is, but if his death had not been followed with the work of the Holy Spirit and the act of faith on the part of individual men, he would have died in vain.[1]

---

[1] William Greenough Thayer Shedd, Dogmatic Theology, ed. Alan W. Gomes, 3rd ed. (Phillipsburg, NJ: P & R Pub., 2003), 726.

Next claim will be to disavow Calvinism.

 

[praise_yeshua]

@TomL




It does save, but only the elect for whom it was designed for. To say it doesnt save in and of itself is very dishonoring to the Sacrifice of Christ, Blasphemous even.

More endless nonsense from you. Tom quoted a Calvinist. Pay attention.

Contrary to the Calvinists here, there are actually Calvinists throughout history that really cared about their theology.

All @brightfame52 @Presby02 @The Rogue Tomato are doing is trying to make themselves look good. It isn't working but it is clear they have no idea how to establish nor defend their "systemless theology".

 

[brightfame52]

More endless nonsense from you. Tom quoted a Calvinist. Pay attention.

Contrary to the Calvinists here, there are actually Calvinists throughout history that really cared about their theology.

All @brightfame52 @Presby02 @The Rogue Tomato are doing is trying to make themselves look good. It isn't working but it is clear they have no idea how to establish nor defend their "systemless theology".

Whats nonsense that I proclaim Jesus saves by His Death ?

 

[civic]

Whats nonsense that I proclaim Jesus saves by His Death ?

His death saves no one , His Resurrection does as I have pointed out with scripture dozens of times. If Christ is not risen you are dead in your sins. 1 Cor 15. Gospel basics 101.

hope this helps !!!

 

[praise_yeshua]

Whats nonsense that I proclaim Jesus saves by His Death ?

No. Excluding others from Jesus and including yourself. You're just like the Pharisees before you.

Mat 23:13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in.

 

[brightfame52]

His death saves no one , His Resurrection does as I have pointed out with scripture dozens of times. If Christ is not risen you are dead in your sins. 1 Cor 15. Gospel basics 101.

hope this helps !!!

His Death saves no one ? Thats Blasphemy and Dishonoring. Those He died for are redeemed unto God by His Blood, thats Salvation

Rev 5:9

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

 

[brightfame52]

No. Excluding others from Jesus and including yourself. You're just like the Pharisees before you.

Mat 23:13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in.

My witness is Christs Death saves ! Do you deny that ?