atpollard
Well-known member
Would the "Church of the East" be the O.O.C., or is that yet another "rite" (I think that was the Catholic term for Rome vs Eastern Orthodox)?
Differences between Catholics and Protestants
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EclipseEventSigns
Well-known member
I think this is shocking and important enough to provide a link to the actual source document. Item #841
Catechism of the Catholic Church
www.usccb.org
I would not go so far as to say the Roman Church worships Allah (as is the claim in the video). But it does show that the Roman Church leadership is making false statements to their followers about moslems.
I tried to find the source for this #841 entry. It is here:
DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH
LUMEN GENTIUM
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 21, 1964
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EclipseEventSigns
Well-known member
I don't know what that is. Again, the Church of the East has nothing whatsoever to do with Eastern Orthodox - other than they both use the word "east" in the name.
Church of the East or Assyrian Church of the East. There are 3 main splinters - Nestorian, Maronite and Jacobite. From my research, the Jacobites are the closest to the original Nazarene Christians, the first Christian church.
You might be in the no mans land I was in, when reformer doctrines did not make sense, and all the division proved to me sola scriptura was not enough by itself. Yet at the time much of catholicism did not make sense to me either!
The answer for me in part was to read the testimonies of many who returned to the catholic church in (such as) patrick madrids reason to believe books. I discovered many in the protestant and evangelical world shared many of my concerns about staying or going from it. Newmans essay on the development of christian doctrine is useful as a warts and all none rose tinted view of the faults of catholicism but he studies the development of ideas and how disputes ended up resolved.
One aspect of the background of protestantism that escapes much attention is the era after aquinas.
Aquinas had the classical view of scientia - the balance between faith and reason both as sources of truth.
Shortly after aquinas the combination of marsilius , occam and machievelli changed the way the world viewed faith and reason.
Faith was deemed to have no reason, and reason became seen as the dominant truth over faith.
That paved the way to the enlightenment later.
Luther was a stated follower of occam.
It matters because increasingly faith without reason led to a God perceived to act without reason.
So the God of the creed and Lords prayer was a father with a covenant not master slave relationship who wanted all his children to succeed and come to Him as a father of a family does.
Increasing the detachment from reason led to perception of God too acting as master without reason becoming the Calvinist view of double predestination, the elect elect without reason, tough luck if you are not one of the elect. That Gods sovereignty and ability to choose arbitrarily trumped his father hood.
That is a long way from the God of a father children covenant, who is willing all to succeed unless you choose not to be part of His family.
Later the enlightment tried to rid itself of all faith. Now leading to the scientism of today.
So protestantism was also founded on a changing view of faith and reason.
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I never understood how the none chalcedon orthodox (I presume you mean so called oriental orthodox) justify their position.
Those who accept the authority of councils cannot pick and choose which councils they prefer!
I think this is shocking and important enough to provide a link to the actual source document. Item #841
Catechism of the Catholic Church
I would not go so far as to say the Roman Church worships Allah (as is the claim in the video). But it does show that the Roman Church leadership is making false statements to their followers about moslems.
I tried to find the source for this #841 entry. It is here:
DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH
LUMEN GENTIUM
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 21, 1964
Muslims claim to be followers of the God of Abraham, as Judaism does.
IThat makes them part of Gods family.
They lost their way, and their view of God is the sovereign master/ slave relationship, not the covenant father God of love and compassion.
I could argue calvinist view of elect without reason, condemned without reason is also a faulty view of a God of love who wants all in the end to come to Him. Most moslems do not know any better.
The church hopes they will be see the errors of their ways and saved. What is wrong with the hope?.
Azriel
Well-known member
Works for me.
I don't know very much about the Catholic religion but I do know quite a bit about Islam. One good study that clears things up is Hagar, Ishmael and Islam.
Would love to read that.Works for me.
I don't know very much about the Catholic religion but I do know quite a bit about Islam. One good study that clears things up is Hagar, Ishmael and Islam.
Do you have a reference or link for it?
EclipseEventSigns
Well-known member
What's wrong with it? Because Allah is not the same as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He is the moon god.
Azriel
Well-known member
I studied it out years ago, I'm sure there's an article on my blog I'll take a look in a minute. The bottom line I believe the reason the Arab Nations under the religion of Islam are such a thorn in the side of Israel and the rest of the world is because of the consequences of Adam and Sarah not obeying and believing God but taking the matter into their own hands. Hagar and Ishmael wasn't the way God had things planned.
The angel of the Lord found her there and comforted her, telling her to return to her mistress and giving her a prophecy concerning her son: “You shall name him Ishmael, for the LORD has heard of your misery. He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone’s hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers” (Genesis 16 11–12). This was Hagar’s first encounter with Abram’s God, and she called Him “the God who sees me”
That sounds like Islam to me.
Also if you felt like it you could just Google "Hagar Ishmael and Islam" And you'll get a ton of different websites with a lot of different opinions.
Azriel
Well-known member
There's nothing new under the sun. Back in those days after the tower of Babel all of the nations around the inhabited part of the earth had their own god. It's actually in the Bible.
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof. 2 Timothy 3:5
Islam is a form of paganism as they do not actually worship the God of Abraham.
Paul had a good description of them.
They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, Romans 1:29
You used the phrase "one good study" which sounded like a specific report
Azriel
Well-known member
Sorry for any confusion I may have caused. I actually didn't find anything on my blog so maybe I have to do my own "One good study" And post it
e v e
Well-known member
I dont see that protestantism improved
things... but rather
just continued on as a branch or
child of the vatican...
and failed to reform, not restoring anything
and adding new mistakes.
i'm glad never to have joined
any protestant sects
but also glad to have left rcc
.. everything's a mess
things... but rather
just continued on as a branch or
child of the vatican...
and failed to reform, not restoring anything
and adding new mistakes.
i'm glad never to have joined
any protestant sects
but also glad to have left rcc
.. everything's a mess
You did not solve anything by leaving , other than depriving yourself of Christ’s church, the pillar of truth, the Bible which is a product of it, , the magistrrium and tradition which says what it means
You also deprived yourself of the bread of life, the Eucharist, sad.
Johann
Well-known member
At the end of the day, what truly matters is who is in Christ and who is not—who is sealed with the Holy Spirit and who is not. It’s not about church creeds or dogmas.
J.
Im a firm believer that Gods kingdom has many mansions, there are holy people in all of the outposts.
On that I will agree. For my part I claim that only in the Catholic Church is the fullness of faith,
Because what you said “ who is in Christ” is a product not just of faith, but who “obeys” what is asked of them
So John 3:36 tells us, that that determines eternal life, ie who is in Christ.
So then you ask what must I obey?
For which the church and teaching as creeds or dogmas do matter,
which stem from studying the early church taught by apostles ,
All of this ends up circular. When we say to Protestants but you don’t agree on most matters , and you can be sure that on most matters your pastor is contradicted by another just down the road. So How can either claim the truth?
The Protestant replies but we agree on the “essentials” . To which we reply you Can’t even agree what are essentials!
Like the necessity, meaning, method, applicability and efficacy of baptism! It’s either needed or not. You obey or not, and it is dire if you don’t. John 3:36
In john6 the Eucharist is essebtial to life,
Some well known protestant theologians have changed the list of what is “ essential “ as time went on. How essential is that?
Yet the book you read - scripture - to decide these questions was provably a decision of the church , before which faith was handed down by word of mouth and letter “ tradition”, The earliest church tells us what they believed , which was listen to the bishop , where he is , so is the church, only those who are “ sent “ can preach.
In short you cannot divorce the question of who is in Christ , without reference to the true church.
It is not just a spiritual Union,
The foundation of truth - the church -is the household of God to whom you are told to take disputes on what is “ essential” so who is in Christ.
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I’m not sent according to scripture.
The bishops appointed in succession - the church - were.
Johann
Well-known member
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