I ask again here, what I asked in other threads: Upon what does God base His pre-ordination/predestination?
hint: the answer is in Rom 8:29.
Excellent answer!!!
An essay:
Romans 8:29 For whom HE did foreknow, HE also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of HIS Son, , so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.”
From this verse we can see that
the predestination of the elect is based on the foreknowledge of GOD.
Now everyone admits that in this verse, the word “fore” means before life. Therefore, they think that it also means before creation as if our earthly life was the same as our created spirit life. I wonder if this is a valid and reasonable link to make?
GOD obviously does not
before life know everybody since not everyone will become like Jesus, as
Rom 8:29 just said predestination means and as per
Matthew 7:21 – 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ which tells us what knowing means, emphasising the idea that loving is knowing and just knowing about has no love.
James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder.
Jesus obviously knew about the demons and knew about the miracle workers but this knowing contained no love as it is plain, He never knew them.
This means that
foreknow must carry the idea of approval. As more than one commentator has stated it, “Whom HE foreknew” is virtually equivalent to “whom HE foreloved”.
Now this question comes to mind:
IF it is true that no one had been created at the time of this foreknowledge,
on what basis does GOD "before life" love some and not the rest?
1. Merit based Election before Creation?
The basis can not be, as some have suggested, some merit in the creatures, first because no one exists yet; second, because the ones HE foreloves will be just as defiled in life as any other; and third, because the Scriptures say election is not on the basis of the creature's works or choices in life, but rather on HIS unmerited favour:
Romans 9:11 For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of GOD according to election might stand, not of works, but of HIM that calleth...
Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of GOD that sheweth mercy.
Therefore, we can surmise that GOD does not "before life" love some because HE has divined that they will have some merit in their life.
2. Election to Damnation before Creation Serves HIS Purpose?
Others have suggested that GOD "before life" loved only some because this is more beneficial for HIS purposes than if HE before life loved everyone. The explanation goes something like this:
The loved ones' eternal joy is directly proportional to their knowledge, appreciation, of GOD and the wonderfulness of their salvation. Therefore an increase of good comes forth from the eternal damnation of some persons because by their damnation, that is, the outcome of Adam's decision to sin, and HIS "before life" decision not to love these persons, two types of eternal blessings supposedly occur for the rest.
First, a fuller appreciation of several of God's attributes is made possible, which opportunity wouldn't be possible if all lived forever, that is, if HE "before life" loved them all. These attributes are usually said to be HIS justness (retribution, wrath) holiness and omnipotence.
Secondly, the truth regarding the elects' end apart from Christ's salvation is made fully known, which full knowledge makes possible the fuller appreciation of HIS salvation, for this salvation (hence, HIS mercy too) would not be so fully appreciated without the graphic depiction of both states of our after earthly life.
Others even go so far as to say that their damnation is absolutely necessary in order that the purpose of GOD be able to be fulfilled by HIS elect, and they offer this explanation:
In order to live in eternity with GOD, we must live fully in the truth, which necessity necessitates having a perfect appreciation of GOD's attributes and HIS salvation, and that this perfect appreciation by HIS elect creatures is made possible first, only through witnessing HIS triumph over and judgement upon HIS enemies, and second, only when HIS perfection and our life in Christ are contrasted with the complete imperfections of the damned and the end we would have had, had HE not saved us.
Now, these are very hard positions to hold, for they fail on many accounts.
First, they both fail to answer or give a reasonable basis for
why HE chose the particular people HE did and why HE did not choose the rest. In other words, they both deny the faithful and unselfish character of GOD's love, in that they limit it without just cause and look on it as somewhat capricious.
Secondly, they both necessitate the unproven presupposition that it is impossible for GOD to perfect HIS creatures HIMSELF, that HE needs the presence of evil in order to bring HIS creation to its highest potential.
In other words we must accept, for example, that in GOD’S world one has to first be sick in order to be healthy, or sinful in order to be faultless [and the more sinful (or sick) the better would we understand HIS loving perfection of ourselves].
Third, they both fail to satisfactorily answer the question of how the damnation of millions makes us more appreciative / perfect than the damnation of but one, since
it is the moral depravity of those in hell that is supposed to make for the increased appreciation, perfection and
not the quantity of persons therein.
Fourthly, they both put a very small value on the worth of the individual creature in the eyes of GOD.
Well, since the reason for GOD's foreknowledge/forelove not including everyone can not be found in HIS divination of merit in some creatures and since a reasonable answer has not been put forward for why GOD does it particularly, we are left with but two conclusions:
We must either look for the answer elsewhere, in some area we have not looked before, or we must put the basis of HIS foreknowledge down to unreasonable chance.
This would mean that
there is no reason for HIS particular "before life" love. [Aside: as I understand it, this is Calvin's failure to understand this doctrine correctly.] GOD's election / foreknowing is thus based on eenie, meenie, minie, mo, but how can you put your faith in a GOD like that? How much better to admit that we should start looking in some area we have not looked yet, and since we cannot find any of those, why not finally admit that we need a NEW revelation from GOD to give us an infinitely loving answer to this problem?
Now, according to pre-conception existence theology, PCE, the "before life" love (foreknowledge) of GOD, that is, HIS pre-life approval of some and rejection of the rest, is based on the prior uncoerced choice of the creature (in heaven, before physical creation) and on HIS infinite love, which means that HE will never stop loving anyone who can possibly ever come to glorify HIM.
Therein is the reason why HE loved some "before this earthly life" and why HE did not love the rest.
Some had chosen to eternally defile themselves by rejecting HIS proclamation to be our GOD and HIS gospel of salvation to be found only in the Son,
Col 1:23, eternally repudiating HIM as a liar and a false god, and some had put their faith in HIS claims to be the truth.
That is: some had decided to never ever fulfil HIS purpose to become HIS Bride, and some were able to fulfil HIS purpose, some willingly, (the elect holy angels) and others only if HE was infallibly gracious (election) to them (His fallen church, His sheep gone astray into sin). Yes, and He predestined these lost sheep, these sinful prodigal sons of HIS kingdom, to be conformed to the image of HIS Son, and HE predestined the other eternally evil ones for the Day of Judgement and established them on earth for the correction of the fallen elect.
Now, I ask you, which doctrine is the more scriptural and reasonable and compatible with the attributes of GOD?
2 Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to HIS own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.
This Scripture does not prove that we existed before our conception. The reason I am including it is that I believe that it does not invalidate pre-conception theology, and I am sure a lot of people will think that it and others like it do.
May I submit that when the Scriptures speak of works in relation to our election, they are referring to only our works
after we are born, ie, no one was elected on account of any works they would do in this life as sinners.
Now, if there is anyone who would like to disagree with me on this and would like to debate whether Paul intended that our pre-life works were also to be included in the works that were excluded as part of the basis of GOD's election, I would be very interested in seeing your argument. I suppose this isn't necessary, but I would like to (first) point out that any such argument must admit to our pre-conception existence.
The second thing I would like to point out is that we were called according to HIS purpose. This must mean so that we could fulfil HIS purpose for us.
But if this is so, then there must be an uncoerced choice on our part if we are ever to have the possibility of glorifying GOD. HIS purpose for us necessitates a free will choice to join that purpose or it is a tape recorder type of agreement.
Therefore I say that being called according to HIS purpose and grace is almost exactly the same as saying, being called in accord with our uncoerced choice and HIS covenant, and if making that choice is a work, since earthly works are out, then it is the same as saying, Being called in accord with a pre-conception work and HIS gracious covenant with those who performed (pre-formed so to speak) that work.
The third thing I would like to point out is that the angels are elected too.
1 Timothy 5:21 I charge thee before GOD and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the ELECT angels...
Angels are a lot different than men (at least, that is what many believe), ie, they do not have what is usually called “racial solidarity”. This means that they have to make all their own choices. No one else can make them for them and they can not be held accountable for someone else's evil choices.
In other words, Adam's choices do not affect them at all (supposedly). Perhaps you would like to tell me on what basis GOD elected only some of them? This question does not get answered very much...sigh.
If it was not on the basis of their individual choices, then they had to be elected before the satanic rebellion, at least. But if GOD's election took place before the satanic rebellion, would this not lead us into the pretty incredulous situation of some
unblemished creatures being unjustly un-predestined to remain in heaven, that is, in effect, predestined for Hell?
And what reasonable basis can we put forward for this situation other than HE simply did not want them to be with HIM forever? This situation does not look too good, does it?
Well then, what if no one was elected before the rebellion, that is, what if GOD's election took place after the rebellion? Then GOD's election took place after they all had made an eternal choice, and presumably that choice would be taken into account when GOD was doing HIS electing. It would have to be if HE was holy and just.
Now, the main thing I am trying to bring out with all of this is that when we just begin to consider the election of angels, we run into some pretty unreasonable implications if we leave out their choice as being a part of the basis of their election, and the only other real alternative necessitates that we accept that their eternal choice was at least a part of the basis of their election.
